Project build thread. Diamond back overdrive EV

[rborger73]

****THIS TURNS INTO A BUILD THREAD lots of pics. *****

**Will update this pic to show status.**
PROJECT BIKE






This is a gallery of some of my "On the road" pics with my Diamondback.

https://www.facebook.com/858400794187930/photos/?tab=album&album_id=1512353305459339


Current bike as of 6/24/2014

What I currently have is a hilltopper kit admittedly on a wally bike. Bike idea was a novelty when I got it for a ride here or there. Then made the leap and did the noob starter thing a cheap conversion kit and SLA batteries... I know.. I know..

So now I have mula in hand to do something new. I'm thinking for now of building or buying a new battery. (I am pretty competent with mechanical and electrical. Have many full on car restorations under my belt, used to own a car audio and security sales and installation biz as well. Grew up restoring old cars and rebuilding wrecks. Can weld have full shop here. Plasma cutters, spot welders, tig, mig. So here is what I have. The hilltopper kit and an extra rim and motor. The tiny controller that came with it.

My first instinct is to build a around 60v battery. Not sure if I should do lipo, or lifepo4 or what at this point. This frame isn't ideal at all but I had 4 sla 12v batteries on the back and put about 500 miles on it that way. I'm currently looking for a good mongoose or trek or something with a large triangle that has discs already on it. I think I'll just keep the Wally bike as is and ride it with the new battery till I get the other frame and motor and controller ready to go. I read on here just about everyday learning new stuff or researching to try and figure out what is the best products to get etc. So not much I can't do I just don't want to blow 600 bucks on a battery and end up making a mistake. I'm also trying to get the new bike down by the end of Feb. I'm NW of Pittsburgh PA. Glad to hear some ideas on next best step. I'll have to buy a charger as I don't have anything but for SLA right now. On this bike I've done 30ish with some good pedaling and overvolted in the 72v range. Did some playing around with some power tool power packs had laying around for sawzalls etc.

So goals for the new build is 30 to 40mph and 25 mile or hopefully greater range. I'd like to be around 20 Amp hours or better.
Liked the front hub for what it was, now want to go with a rear hub and at some point if it make sense try awd. VERY open to suggestions for the noob..

 

[amberwolf]

You'll want to read around the various high-speed bike build threads for info on that part. There's a wiki entry listing many of them. Will help with component suggestions and power requirements, heat, etc.

Your terrain/etc will make a big difference in what you want to use, especially for those speeds, for pretty much everything on the bike.

Battery type you will want to read about the various battery issues with various kinds, and see which one is more up your alley, before deciding on chemistry. Everyone has their preferences, usually with their own good reasons for choosing them, which might not apply to your needs.


I'd guess that you will need a bigger battery than 20Ah at 60V (nominally called 48V but around 60V fully charged, if it's like mine, a 14s LiPo/NMC pack), to get 25 miles at those speeds, and still have that bit of extra for unexpected detours and windy days, etc., as well as extra for losses due to pack aging/etc. You can check with different simulators/etc to see what your power requirements are for your terrain/traffic controls/etc, on various bike configurations at the speeds you want, and figure out what size pack you'll really need.

I haven't run it down to nearly nothing in a long time, but my 30Ah 14s pack on CrazyBike2 could theoreticaly get me 40-50 miles at 20MPH cruising, anticipating complete stops/starts at least every half-mile; less range with more stops or if I'm pulling the trailer or carrying lots of cargo, or windy days, but I'm on essentialy completely flat mostly-sort-of-decent paved roads. Worse roads, wind, detours, etc., all lower that a lot. I typically use a little more than 0.5Ah per mile on that bike, over long trips, on average. That still leaves enough in the pack to not be running it all the way to zero, or having to charge it to 100%, both of which risk damaging the pack and do shorten the useful lifetime.

At faster speeds, you will use more power per mile, a lot more at 40MPH (more than double what I use, probably), so your battery will have to be correspondingly larger to get that range. If my 30Ah gets me up to 50 miles at 20MPH, then at a guess it probably would (at best) barely get you 25 miles at 40MPH (and probably not even that).



As a side note: It may not matter to you, but different areas have different laws on power and speed restrictions for ebikes, and deal differently with violations of that. Some are pretty harsh (like here in AZ in some places), and some don't care much. ES Wiki has some of that info, if you need it.

 

[rborger73]

40 would be top speed with pedaling if I run a bigger size sprocket on the front. I'd guess most of the time I'd be around 20 to 25 cruising. I just want the burst of speed there if I need it. Though I know this past summer I probably pushed the top speed once a day or so. lol I understand about the much higher draw with the top speed. I'll be in the Denver, Colorado Springs area which seems to be flatter than NW PA. We have some pretty good hills around here. I'm out in the country currently. I'm aiming at being 5 miles or less from stores and other trips I'd be making when I get moved there, but still looking slightly out in the country. Thanks for the tips so far.

I guess the first thing is battery. I'm ok with Lipo as have an empty concrete side room in the garage for now, and I'll be making a safe charging area in CO as well. I guess lipo is the most likely I'd get shipped in short order as well. I'm looking for well rounded I guess. I want a decent C rating but also don't want to go over board on the cost of it. I'd love some links to Hobby king lipo that people are having good luck with and a charger that will charge fast and not break the bank. I'll be doing ebikes for a good many years I know that so I'll be upgrading as I need to. Just happen to have an influx of money and want to get this done while I can and have something that will last and I can depend on. I can build and wire whatever needs done I just don't want to buy garbage or overspend on quality stuff. I like the idea of the lifepo4 blue cylinder batteries. But looks like they are hard to source or get in a reasonable time. Family runs a heating and cooling business so have access to any pvc I need so making a tube battery out of pvc and lifepo4 looks good as well.

 

[rich43]

What is that app your running on your tablet?

Also, check out my ebike at http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=55913

 

[rborger73]

Just a gps speedometer program. I like using the tablet since then I have 3g, gps, my music, text messages, and phone while I'm riding if I need it.

 

[Ykick]

My current HK favorite RC Lipo - http://hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__18631__Turnigy_5000mAh_4S1P_14_8v_20C_hardcase_pack_USA_Warehouse_.html

4 bricks in series - 16S

 

[wesnewell]

Yep, that's what I use too. Can't beat the price/performance.

 

[dogman dan]

You almost create a harder decision to make, by having a budget. But we may send you to spend more than you think. $1200-$2000 is not unusual, when getting into a truly quality creation.

But here's some advice for step one. Stop even thinking about the battery too much, till you have picked out motors and controllers. If you have picked something that will go 40 mph, then you will very likely want to go straight to lico, the RC batteries. But there are some very nice alternatives now, for 30 amps controllers.

Unfortunately, even in lico, 48v 20 ah crosses the line and is very awkward and heavy to carry on most bikes. 15 ah carries nice though. 48v 15 ah is good for 30 miles range at 18 mph, 20 miles of range at 25 mph, and 15 miles at 30 mph. It's enough for a fun fast ride, or a long slower one when you need that distance.

Think really hard, what you really want out of that bike. 40 mph can be cheap and easy for short distances, but do you really need or even want 40 mph? Have you ridden 40 mph on a bike? Not a long hill someplace open and smooth, I mean city street, potholes, stop signs, crosswalk stripes slick as ice, etc. In town, its stupid unless you have built with real motorcycle tires, and so on.

But no reason not to build a second, hooligan ride bike for 40 mph. Like I said, you can get there on cheap motors and a 72v controller. I just think you will end up in the ER, or court, if you ride that thing daily around town. If you really want a small motorcycle, then you want this.

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=56313

A far more practical approach is to build for about 30 mph. Now you don't buy a new tire every month, and cops don't notice you so much. It's plenty fast for urban riding. It can be built to get to 30 mph very fast and fun. 8) To get this, 48v can work fine. It can be as easy as a few clicks at Grin Cyclery, or EM3ev for the whole shebang. Grin for sure, if you wanted a cargo carrying bike. You will want a cycleanalyst from Grin FOR SURE. Check out that edgerunner frame. My daily rider is a huge longtail cargo bike, but it gets to 32 mph very quick. If you will carry a lot of groceries, a longtail rocks. But it doesn't have to be stodgy and slow.

But you could hardly go wrong, with a Mac 10t rear motor, triangle battery, and bag from EM3ev. A lotta guys on ES love those Macs.

I love the EM3ev bag, for carrying 48v 15 ah of lico from Hobby King. I charge with a bulk charger from EM3ev. Since I ride a conservative discharge depth, I rarely need to break out the balancing charger. I just balanced my pack today after 6 months use. I had 2 cells that needed adjusting by .05v in a 42 cell pack. After six months of use.

I could go on and on, but will stop now since you seem to need to think a bit more about just what kind of bike you will be wanting.

 

[heavymetalthunder]

Dogman is right on the money with setting and riding a bike for higher speeds above 30 MPH. Power draw becomes a big issue especially above 20. Trying to take a bike conversion much above 30 is asking for trouble if not set up right. I ride a 48V 1000 W conversion and I can hit speeds up to 34 MPH, normal cruise speed 26 to 32 depending upon road conditions, and I'm happy with that. For any planned conversion for 25 MPH or more I would recommend a full suspension bike. I usually ride with 8 5000 mah 6c 20 to 30 C rated batteries and because I use 8 packs the C rating really doesn't matter. I even have a few older bricks of 15c rated batteries that work fine. Another thing you might consider is daytime running lights. Because I ride large motorcycles (Honda Goldwing is my biggest), I set up my E-bike with full head and tail lights, brake and turn signals. For me a motorcycle helmet with a face shield and gloves is mandatory. If you really need to have a cruising speed above 35 MPH, cost wise you might be better served getting a gas powered motor bike.

 

[calab]

Go with a chromoly steal bike, they are stronger.
I can hunt bikes down easy, but 2 aluminum bikes just fell on my lap so I will ride those until they break.
Then find a good chromoly bike with the components I want.
60V Lipo's are the way to go, Hobbyking.com Look for the Turnigy brand, 20-25C and connect them all up.

 

[cassschr1]

Moonshine's bike in for sale used. You will probably spend that much anyway if you stay with this hobby :lol:

 

[amberwolf]

40 would be top speed with pedaling if I run a bigger size sprocket on the front. I'd guess most of the time I'd be around 20 to 25 cruising. I just want the burst of speed there if I need it.

Then basically you're wanting the type of thing I have, though ATM I'd guess my max speed would be around 30-35MPH (not tested in present configuration). The point of mine is to cruise below the legal limit, but in case of stupid people or sudden bad situations I couldn't avoid otherwise (since I ride in traffic with unpredictable drivers for some stretches of my commute and other trips), I want the ability to quickly accelerate out of the way for those times when braking wouldn't avoid the potential collision or would make it worse.

It's likely that your 20Ah pack would do what you want, depending on ride/terrain/etc conditions, and traffic stops/etc. FWIW, you might get away with 10Ah with a ~100v (~120V full?) pack, since it would be ~ same watt hours (Wh) as the 20Ah ~48V (60V full) pack, and it would make it easier to get the max speed you want with a normal hubmotor in a smaller wheel (allowing for better startup torque at lower currents).

So your best bet is a motor wound for typical cruising speeds of 20-25MPH at 48V, but have a controller that handles at least twice that, and much higher current than needed for those speeds, and a battery pack that's at least twice the 48V, and can also handle the sudden surge of high currents without sagging too much or tripping any BMS it might have.

Then use a 3-speed switch with the controller programmed to use 50% max speed for one of the settings, so you still can use your throttle full-range but be able to flick a switch right next to it or on it that lets you have that burst ability, or use a resistive voltage divider on the throttle output signal to cut it's output in half for normla use, and add a button to the throttle that bypasses that divider for full output for those moments you need the full speed range. (can be momentary "turbo" button or can be a toggle-type button or switch to change to full-range).

Alternatley you can use the Cycle Analyst v3 from Grin Tech to do that stuff, and it's much more versatile in what it can do even with non-programmable controllers than most programmable controllers are on their own.



There's a number of ways to do what you want, but you'll have to read up on how others did it, and decide if any of those ways is what you want to do to get there.

 

[rborger73]

My current HK favorite RC Lipo - http://hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__18631__Turnigy_5000mAh_4S1P_14_8v_20C_hardcase_pack_USA_Warehouse_.html

4 bricks in series - 16S

Ok so what I'm thinking is I'll grab 4 of these to start and build a 16s 5 Ah pack. That will give me some riding ability soon as it warms up for my current bike. My sla batteries are already past their worthiness point. Closest store is 2 miles and they barely make it back without dying. The new bike I'll order another 4 and add a rear carrier if I want to add the other 5 Ah pack for longer rides. Btw I'm currently working on getting my drivers license back so I may have to depend on the bikes more out in CO depending on how long it takes me to get resolved. Bike I have is decent to get around here on soon as the weather warms up a touch.

Before I order these 4 I'm trying to find a decent charger that would handle charging both 16s packs at once. Or is it better to buy 2 decent chargers one for each pack? Was looking at this pack for the moment. http://hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__11170__Turnigy_4x6S_Lithium_Polymer_Battery_Pack_Charger.html I want to try and get a good setup that isn't going to crap out suddenly. So maybe it is better to get one decent charger now and buy a second when I build the other battery? I may even just order 8 at once and be done with it. I'm not going to be going monster crazy on the new one. First I want to get current one rolling under power again. Next I'll find a suitable bike to start the build on. Trying to stay under 1300.00 total. So finding a good craigslist bike someone doesn't know what they have would be good.

So hit me with chargers that would work for me here. I appreciate the heck out of the help so far.

 

[Ykick]

Many of us bulk charge using current modded power supplies like the Meanwell series and/or combining 'couple different supplies to reach the desired pack voltage. For my latest 16S2P pack assembled with 4S hard case bricks, I have 48V and 12V MW's series wired to deliver 66.4V. Both happen to be current limited but only one needs to be.

You still need to own and at times use a decent RC Battery charger like the iChargers, etc. But, that's mainly for initial qualification and subsequent maintenance. IMO when you start with good bricks, test them carefully and observe conservative charge/discharge voltages you may never need to balance any cells.

Another way to go is to add a BMS and use a suitable battery charger/power supply. I'm still toying with that route although I frequently change pack configurations which complicates adding BMS circuitry.

Other folks do the series/parallel cable breakdown for every charge but I would screw something up sooner later using that system.

12S (3x4S) is probably much easier for beginners since common 60V RC power meters, controllers and many chargers can better handle 12S (46-50V) voltage range.

16S (4x4S hardcase bricks) assemble very nicely but most RC power meter specifications fail to cover that voltage range. At which point a Cycle Analyst is probably the most elegant way to measure power in/out at much above 60V. Along with all the other amazing stuff it does.

You also need to settle on your connectors of choice. That's an whole 'nuther can o worms....

 

[dogman dan]

Whoa nelly. You don't want 16s. It's too high voltage for 48v controllers and too low for 72v ones. But, if you get a controller with a wider, 36-72v range, then you could do 16s. But 16s won't charge with a 14s hyperion charger, or a 12s thunder power either. You'd be using two 8s chargers. That can work ok, I have that set up, that I used for charging 5 or 6s bricks, in two packs at a time. You could make 8s sections out of 4s packs.

Lot of people run 18s, but I would find that also awkward to charge. Fine for the weekend bike, but a nightmare for commuting.


12s or 14s. if you have a 48v controller.

I just put in an order, from the USA warehouse, for three 4s hard case, and one 2s soft pack. 14s, the soft pack will get placed in between the hard ones, with a spacer on either side to fill in the gap. Makes a nice durable, 5 ah brick. Connect as many as you need for the distance in paralell.

14s charges easy with the EM3ev bulk charger, and then you'd only need a tiny cheap 6s charger for occasional balancing. Run 14s, and you can carry a simple plug in one plug charger for catching a few more wh here and there. You want to ride, not fiddle fart around with plugging and unplugging packs twice a day. Go that route, and a KFF is inevitable.

DO NOT, buy that turnigy quad charger. That's perfect for a guy with a helicopter and 4 small batteries. You want to charge one large battery. Better to buy two or more chargers, each at least 150w or more. The EM3ev charger is not too bad, 300w total output, and one simple plug.

I don't recommend this bulk charging to every noob. You have the smarts and the experience to do it safe. Step one, is to sort and eliminate the inevitable defect packs. Once you get rid of any that won't stay balanced, bulk charging can be fine.

ALL charging of RC lico has to be done in a place you'd build a campfire, of course.

 

[Ykick]

Absolutely agree Dogman but once you see how nicely 4qty of those bricks stack together you'll do whatever it takes to run 16S, lol....

Seriously, 16S is not for standard controllers or RC power meters but if you can source 72V or higher controller and figure out how to charge/discharge and measure those parameters 16S from 4x4S hardcase appears to be the best configuration for my needs.

 

[rborger73]

I'm not too worried about the current controller I have. It was shipped as 24v/36v I believe but I've run over 70v through it with no issues. I am already figuring on burning that up shortly lol. I'll grab another controller and get an actual throttle instead of the push button crap. So is the 16s really that bad to go with? I was looking at these for maybe little more ease of use.

http://hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__10870__Turnigy_5800mAh_8S_25C_Lipo_Pack.html

Opinions? And any links to look at would be splendid. I've been researching for a while but trying to keep everything in mind and cross checking what will work with what I still need a smidge of help with hehe. Little overwhelming even after researching for the last 6 months.

 

[rborger73]

Mounting the batteries is a concern but not an issue. I'm a fabricator as well. We have a full sheet metal shop where we do all our duct work. If I was going to use a triangle bag it would only be for a very short time. I'll be making something custom. I also use to build fiberglass enclosures for my car audio installs. And when I started out in autobody I worked in a shop and was the young guy on the totem pole so I got a lot of the rust work. Which means a lot of learning how to build something out of nothing hehe. So my main concern at the moment is deciding on the proper components and making sure I have everything I need for the best price / quality combo.

 

[torker]

The 4s hardcase packs are alot cheaper . A few more connections but the cheapest per wh. out there.

 

[rborger73]

The 4s hardcase packs are alot cheaper . A few more connections but the cheapest per wh. out there.

The 8s packs have more Ah don't they? 5800 on the 8s pack link and they are 25c and would be 103.95
http://hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__10870__Turnigy_5800mAh_8S_25C_Lipo_Pack.html


The 4s are 5000 mah and 20c and would be 101.88
http://hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__18631__Turnigy_5000mAh_4S1P_14_8v_20C_hardcase_pack_USA_Warehouse_.html

Plus cost of the additional wiring. Am I wrong or?

 

[Ykick]

The 4s hardcase packs are alot cheaper . A few more connections but the cheapest per wh. out there.

The 8s packs have more Ah don't they? 5800 on the 8s pack link and they are 25c and would be 103.95
http://hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__10870__Turnigy_5800mAh_8S_25C_Lipo_Pack.html


The 4s are 5000 mah and 20c and would be 101.88
http://hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__18631__Turnigy_5000mAh_4S1P_14_8v_20C_hardcase_pack_USA_Warehouse_.html

Plus cost of the additional wiring. Am I wrong or?

By about factor of 2x.

What wiring? I do the series connections with supplied leads and 4mm Bullets.

Fab'd a Bullet to Anderson pigtail and ready to go 66.4V (4.15V/cell)

 

[wesnewell]

Balance charging is a concern with any rc lipo pack. I run 24s using the 4s packs and charge them as 12s packs by splitting them when I charge. Only takes a couple of seconds. Still, I had to make balance cables that turned 3 4s plugs into 2 6s plugs so I could balance charge with a 12s charger. With 16s you could make cables that turned 2 4s plugs into 1 8s plug and then charge as 8s packs doing the same. Or you could get a 16s lco bms and charge as a whole pack. Or many other options depending on what you want to do. The main problem with a bms is that it limits the max output from the pack taking it from a 20C pack down to whatever the bms allows. However you could just use it to charge and then bypass it going to the controller. I might do this if I just wanted a simple way to charge. Those 8s packs cost almost twice as much per wh as the 4s packs.

 

[rborger73]

The 4s hardcase packs are alot cheaper . A few more connections but the cheapest per wh. out there.

The 8s packs have more Ah don't they? 5800 on the 8s pack link and they are 25c and would be 103.95
http://hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__10870__Turnigy_5800mAh_8S_25C_Lipo_Pack.html


The 4s are 5000 mah and 20c and would be 101.88
http://hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__18631__Turnigy_5000mAh_4S1P_14_8v_20C_hardcase_pack_USA_Warehouse_.html

Plus cost of the additional wiring. Am I wrong or?

By about factor of 2x.

What wiring? I do the series connections with supplied leads and 4mm Bullets.

Fab'd a Bullet to Anderson pigtail and ready to go 66.4V (4.15V/cell)

Ya geez I see that now. Math fail.. lol Ok so go with at least 4 of the 4s for now. I may go ahead and buy 8 now that way if I have some duds I'll at least be able to get one pack going. So since it is still ice cold outside it will give me some time to learn more on the lipo charging setup. So am I best for the moment to grab a midrange balancing charger and then buy a bulk charger when I build the second pack or?

Won't be much commuting going on while in PA unless we have a big warm up come soon. I don't mind doing more wiring to make them work. Only reason I mentioned the wiring cost was when I thought my math made it only a few dollars different and more Ah on the 8s setup. I'll end up making a lot of revisions till I get down to the fastest and best way to charge as far as making cables etc. Thanks for the help thus far. I'm not ignoring anyones opinions either, trying to get at least the battery ordered before Weds so I want to get this figured out and look over options best I can.

 

[wesnewell]

You want 30-40mph and a 25+ mile range. 16s lipo will give about 35mph tops on a medium fast wind dd motor, but 5ah will only get you about 10 miles@20mph and about 5 miles wot. Don't even think of buying a battery until you decide on what controller/motor setup you want. Then get a battery pack to match the controller.

 

[rborger73]

You want 30-40mph and a 25+ mile range. 16s lipo will give about 35mph tops on a medium fast wind dd motor, but 5ah will only get you about 10 miles@20mph and about 5 miles wot. Don't even think of buying a battery until you decide on what controller/motor setup you want. Then get a battery pack to match the controller.

I'm building 2 16s packs so 10 Ah. Two bikes sitting here so if I do 2 packs I can use either or throw both battery packs on the better bike. 35 tops is fine for the moment. Battery gets my current bike going if anyone missed that part. Had sla batteries and I've also ran it off a bunch of rechargeable powertool stuff we have here. So I've had it way north of 60v with no issues. And if I burn up that controller so be it cause it is a tiny cheap one. Those numbers are ones I'd like to reach but I have to weigh things out between feasibility and budget. I'll get it to those numbers but if it takes a few extra months so be it.

I have an extra rim and a q100 I believe motor as well. So can fry one of those if need be as well. lol

I'm not sure on the motor or controller yet honestly. What motor controller combo is stable and close to my needs and won't take months to get ordered in?

I'm fairly certain on going with the 16s honestly. Even if I have to mess around some to charge the batteries.

So I can get 10 of those for TOTAL: $254.7 including shipping.

http://hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__18631__Turnigy_5000mAh_4S1P_14_8v_20C_hardcase_pack_USA_Warehouse_.html

So if I go that route I'll have 2 possible spares and enough for 2 packs. Anyone for posting a link to a charger that will work for this setup to at least get everything charged and initially balanced correct? I'll switch to a bulk charger later, but obviously I need something to get the packs right as well.

Motor controller combo suggestions welcome too. I am really trying to find a motor that doesn't take months to get. The mac someone suggested I'd be good with, but looks like it takes a lot of time to arrive?