Qulbix Raptor ebike + frame kit

[Dark Knight]

Quick change of subject for all you Raptorites...would a 167mm steerer length be enough on dual crown forks for the raptor? The head tube length is listed at 150mm on Qulbix site so I'm thinking 167mm doesn't leave much room for spacers, stem and head set. I accept the head set doesn't take any length (I think....) and you don't necessarily need spacers...but 17mm still seems a little tight to me. Also removes the ability to play with stem (and therefore handlebar) height. Any feedback from those that are up and riding on the frame?

Reason for the query, I've found a pair of second hand forks but the steerer length is 167mm.

Im afraid you are too short not one spacer would fit!!! No punt intended! :lol:

What are you getting? If it is a RockShox Boxxer let me know, I have one in black for sale that has a long stem that would fit the raptor year 2009 mint condition. I would give you a good deal and will ship to Australia for you. Not sure what shipping would be however. PM me if you want it or anyone else before I put it on Ebay.

Thanks for the confirmation re: steerer length ecruz. Re: forks, I'm set on getting some Fox 40 RC2 FIT with Kashima coat - got a bit of gold bling that'll be sprinkled around the bike and these will fit right in. By all accounts, they're not a bad set of forks either... Thanks for the offer though and good luck moving the RockShox Boxxer on - I'm sure you won't have a problem selling it in the US.

The search continues for black Fox 40s...suspect I'll end up biting the bullet and purchasing new...just waiting for a runout sale or sometin!

 

[Mammalian04]

The TC65 at 70-90v really shines, what I'm looking at is basically a bigger version of that that's more easily laced into moto rims.

Thanks for the additional information Hyena. I started to get the basics from the MOTOR TERMS article on ElectricBike.com and your practical explanation and chart puts it into real terms. If you do make progress with the higher turn / slower motor that will lace to a moto wheel, you have a very interested customer for one, maybe 2 motors.

22S is the most you will be able to on the Max-E I have already asked them. Also you count of the v of a full battery pack. So yes 4.2-4.3 whatever your battery comes out at.

Thanks for the confirmation eCruz.

If it is a RockShox Boxxer let me know, I have one in black for sale that has a long stem that would fit the raptor year 2009 mint condition.

I am interested in Forks. What is it sprung for? Also, does this fork have a lockout?

Anyone have thoughts on how the Boxxer compares to the Marzocchi 888 and DNM USD-8? I was really hoping for the dual disk DNM for to surface again but Greyborg/Zelena can't give a resupply date on the companion dual disk hub and next order of custom forks from DNM.

 

[Merlin]

I had PM from someone saying they didn't understand what I was saying so here's an example from the ebikes.ca simulator that hopefully makes it more simple.
It's using the H3525 and H3545. These are obviously a smaller motor but it highlights the point of how the same motor in 2 different winds and fed different voltages behaves differently.

I've used a speed of 35km/hr / 22mph which I find is an average sort of speed you're likely to be riding mtb singletrack type stuff. Obviously you burst higher speed on straights and drop lower under brakes in the corners, but yeah, it's just as an average.
Look at the efficiency difference between the 2 motors. Motor A, the slower wind at 60v with a 70A controller is pulling just shy of 2000w. Motor B is the same motor but wound for higher speed, using the same controller but and with a 80v battery. This is vaguely more equivalent to the sort of thing most of the guys who are cooking motors are running. The faster wind motor is drawing a huge 5300w to do the same speed on this single track! More than 2.5 times the power and efficiency is only 54% vs 74%. If you've got a small battery you may flatten it before you cook the motor but on a raptor with a belly full of lithium it's RIP motor. If this is the sort of riding you want to do then motor A is the clear winner.

Iam not sure, because iam not the Man who knows the secrets of Electric Stuff, but my first question:
why did you compare 2 systems with other voltages?
To compare the efficiency of a motor you must compare it with same voltage.
The Simulator shows the Maximum Battery Power with Voltage and Controller (Amps)
so it is not a surprise he sucks alot more of juice.
You wrote that the faster Wind Motor is drawing ->5KW on "SAME SPEED"....thats not right.
With same Voltage the faster Wind runs about 20kph faster(!)
fast kph from 35 to 55 means alot more power to use for that speed also. Most of that wind resistance.
The Sim shows also only the Speed of the First System.(donno why)
My Opinion to Compare is what the user has:
A Battery Pack of Maybe 50v or 75v and searching for a Motor that fits his needs.(As you described)

So "My Compare" looks like that:
Slow Wind 3525 vs Fast Wind 3548
Efficiency 83,2 / 79,5
Battery 1525w / 1397w
Consumption 29.7Wh/km 27.2Wh/km
Range 19 km 20 km

I reduced the Throttle to 57% to get same Speed on same Voltage. Thats the Flat fact
For me it looks like theres no need to buy a slow wind 3525. BEcause he is just slow and not that better efficiency that it was worth to
pass on 20kph more Speed (WHEN you want ;P)

And when we Talking about hills, (i tried a 10% Grade Hill)
+ we want the same speed (41kph on both motors)
we have just a 1-2% more Effeciency on the slower wind.
BUT no extras when you want to go faster.

I now, that we dont Throttle down to safe BAttery. And this is maybe the Point where we wasted to much Energy and generate just heat.
But did we asking about saving energy when we have a wide open throttle?

let me know when iam wrong comparing like that.

 

[Mammalian04]

Interesting Merlin. I didn't think about the wind resistance of the higher speed. When I get back to a computer, I will play around with 10% or greater grades in the slow 5 to 20 mph range.

 

[Rix]

Hyena has a line of Chinese cromotor type clones. I believe those motors are running a 3 turn stator because of how fast they are. I speculated that those motors were good for about 35-37MPH with 12s which Hyena agreed based on him getting 60+MPH with 24s. Greybog lists the Cromotor with a 24"MTB wheel at 29MPH with 50 volts on their website. I don't think there is a cromotor, or a cro clone out there with a 5 turn stator.

Just because it's not widely known to the ES community yet doesn't mean a certain person who's been testing faster motors isn't having slower ones wound as we speak. This person is looking at offering them as a package with raptor frames but might just have a few left over for others too :wink:
The TC65 at 70-90v really shines, what I'm looking at is basically a bigger version of that that's more easily laced into moto rims.

If you plan on keeping voltage in the 50-80 volt range, you will not benefit much from a 5 turn stator over a 4 turn stator on the cromotor.....in my opinion.

We're probably better to talk in terms of faster or slower wind motors (or kv) rather than actual turns as it will vary between motors of different width and size. But yes, 50v on a 5 turn motor like the 540x makes for rather underwhelming top speed but it'll be virtually indestructible. Look at the motor efficiency curves, if you're riding a faster wind motor on slow twisty stuff you're at a very low part of the motors efficiency curve and you'll heat up the motor pretty quickly. A slower wind motor I reckon 72/80v is the sweet spot for these sorts of motors though in terms of performance and efficiency. For those that don't want to break the sound barrier and are happy with a top speed of around 60kmhr/37mph. And lets be honest, for actual proper mountain bike trail type riding that's plenty fast enough. If you want to go faster continuously (eg more open fire trails etc) then higher voltage or a faster wind motor is more appropriate.

It's the old story of choosing the best tool for the job, and unfortunately with a lack of gearing available on direct drive motors you need to pick a wind and voltage suitable to how you ride most of the time. They are somewhat 'one size fits all' and sure you can get great torque from a fast wind motor down low but the trade off is you have to throw heaps of current at it which quickly heats up the motor.

I had PM from someone saying they didn't understand what I was saying so here's an example from the ebikes.ca simulator that hopefully makes it more simple.
It's using the H3525 and H3545. These are obviously a smaller motor but it highlights the point of how the same motor in 2 different winds and fed different voltages behaves differently.

I've used a speed of 35km/hr / 22mph which I find is an average sort of speed you're likely to be riding mtb singletrack type stuff. Obviously you burst higher speed on straights and drop lower under brakes in the corners, but yeah, it's just as an average.
Look at the efficiency difference between the 2 motors. Motor A, the slower wind at 60v with a 70A controller is pulling just shy of 2000w. Motor B is the same motor but wound for higher speed, using the same controller but and with a 80v battery. This is vaguely more equivalent to the sort of thing most of the guys who are cooking motors are running. The faster wind motor is drawing a huge 5300w to do the same speed on this single track! More than 2.5 times the power and efficiency is only 54% vs 74%. If you've got a small battery you may flatten it before you cook the motor but on a raptor with a belly full of lithium it's RIP motor. If this is the sort of riding you want to do then motor A is the clear winner.

[]

Thanks for the break down Jay. The other thing I forgot to mention was copper fill and how that effects characteristics of a motor. When I was trying to sort out why the 5405 didn't pull much harder than the 5404 off the line, I also contacted Kenny from Crystalyte as well. He said the copper fill between the 5404 and 5405 were almost identical. The 5404 used .083 wire and the 5405 used .065. Because of this, both motors have about the same amount of copper even though the amount of winds on the stators are different. Ironically the 5403 has less copper because it uses the same size wire as the 5404 but with one less turn. Because of this, the 5404 performs closer to the 5405 down low with a higher top speed at the price of increased current demands. Real world riding that when climbing the same hills at speeds of 15-20MPH, the 5405 didn't get as warm as the 5404. That tells me that there was less energy loss to heat. I found this interesting because the specific climbs I am referencing the 5405 would draw max amps of 64AH vs 71Ah with the 5404. So the higher turn stator was getting the same work done with a little less amp draw. Back to the Raptor, so reading between these lines, widely known to the ES community yet doesn't mean a certain person who's been testing faster motors isn't having slower ones wound as we speak. This person is looking at offering them as a package with raptor frames but might just have a few left over for others too :wink: :wink:
Sounds like you are addressing future customers needs. A Raptor with one of your motor kits is very enticing indeed. What's the ETA on your prototypes?

Rick

 

[ecruz]

If it is a RockShox Boxxer let me know, I have one in black for sale that has a long stem that would fit the raptor year 2009 mint condition.

I am interested in Forks. What is it sprung for? Also, does this fork have a lockout?

Correction they are 2011 Boxxer R2C2

Specs: http://www.sram.com/sites/default/files/techdocs/2011-boxxer-r2c2-technical-manual.pdf

Same color as in the picture.

 

[Offroader]

Just wanted to give an update of the overheating cromotor. I have been running it since I had the overheating issues almost daily.

It seems that if I go easier on the throttle (half throttle it to accelerate than full all the time), don't climb anything steep and very long it will stay under 130c and mostly under 120c if driven relatively hard.

It also seems I can get most of my acceleration out of the motor while only using half the wattage by not full throttling it. Using too much throttle seems to waste battery power and turn it into heat.

Days that aren't 90deg F. are also a lot easier on the motor.

I may not oil cool the motor as I don't want a oily mess at this point. If these motors ever come available water cooled I'll buy one right away.

 

[efMX Trials Electric Freeride]

Just wanted to give an update of the overheating cromotor. I have been running it since I had the overheating issues almost daily.

It seems that if I go easier on the throttle (half throttle it to accelerate than full all the time), don't climb anything steep and very long it will stay under 130c and mostly under 120c if driven relatively hard.

It also seems I can get most of my acceleration out of the motor while only using half the wattage by not full throttling it. Using too much throttle seems to waste battery power and turn it into heat.

Days that aren't 90deg F. are also a lot easier on the motor.

I may not oil cool the motor as I don't want a oily mess at this point. If these motors ever come available water cooled I'll buy one right away.

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=44852&start=25#p887810

 

[Offroader]

Quick change of subject for all you Raptorites...would a 167mm steerer length be enough on dual crown forks for the raptor? The head tube length is listed at 150mm on Qulbix site so I'm thinking 167mm doesn't leave much room for spacers, stem and head set. I accept the head set doesn't take any length (I think....) and you don't necessarily need spacers...but 17mm still seems a little tight to me. Also removes the ability to play with stem (and therefore handlebar) height. Any feedback from those that are up and riding on the frame?

Reason for the query, I've found a pair of second hand forks but the steerer length is 167mm.

Nope, 167 is too short. I think the raptor has probably a longer head tube than any bicycle ever made.

I am not sure if torque raptor made the headtube a bit smaller with the newer frames, you will have to ask them.

My head tube measures about 150mm, then you need to add the headset, the smallest headset will add maybe 13 mm more, as that is what mine adds. Then you need to add in the top crown, which is about another 13 mm.

My stem is 40mm if you use one like mine. If you use a direct mount stem then you may not need to add this. However, the bars will be pretty low and on the raptor you really don't want to be leaning forward as that is uncomfortable and not really necessary on a motored bike in my opinion.

Will 167 work, nope, not on a dual crown fork. The head tube 150mm, + headset 13mm + top crown 13mm will be above this. So you will need minimum steerer tube of around 176mm if using a direct mount stem. Don't take these numbers 100% because I assume when using a direct mount stem you can place your stem cap directly on top of the upper crown.

Here are some pics of my spacing. I used a 40 mm stem and two 10 mm spacers. I actually never got around to cutting my steerer tube yet and it doesn't even look all that bad.

 

[Dark Knight]

Thanks for the detailed feedback Offroader - that's what I expected. Ecruz also enlightened me a little earlier...
Suspect I'll be springer for a new fork sometime soon...need to make sure we got all the steerer length.
Oh well - budget was blown anyways...

 

[Hyena]

As I tell others who either gasp at the price of a powerful ebike, it all quickly disappears when that first EV grin dominates your face

DK, the other thing to consider with that fork is if you're able to get it for a good price you can often get replacable steerer tubes. It might be a worthwhile purch if you're getting a good fork for cheap otherwise.

It also seems I can get most of my acceleration out of the motor while only using half the wattage by not full throttling it. Using too much throttle seems to waste battery power and turn it into heat.

Exactly right, if they want to get the most out of their battery (and not heat up the motor) then keep an eye on the CA. You often find if you're going up a hill and back off to half throttle your speed might only drop by 2km/hr power you power consumption will drop in half, or even less.

Thanks for the break down Jay. The other thing I forgot to mention was copper fill and how that effects characteristics of a motor.

True, but as you said you're usually splitting hairs unless to see the difference in the real world.

the higher turn stator was getting the same work done with a little less amp draw.

Yep, this is pretty much the bottom line.

[/b] Sounds like you are addressing future customers needs. A Raptor with one of your motor kits is very enticing indeed. What's the ETA on your prototypes?

Me, who mentioned anything about me ?
Word on the street is you'll be able to see the new raptor 140 in action and sporting the above mentioned motor in 2 weeks if the stars align correctly.

why did you compare 2 systems with other voltages?
To compare the efficiency of a motor you must compare it with same voltage.

I was more doing it to highlight my point about choosing the correct motor winding and voltage for your application. It seems to be the new fad that everyone wants to run 24S lipo on cromotors. And then noobs come along and see other people doing it so aspire to do the same. Most people would be perfectly happy with the power you get from 18S or 20S and your system will run cooler and more efficiently too.

You wrote that the faster Wind Motor is drawing ->5KW on "SAME SPEED"....thats not right.
With same Voltage the faster Wind runs about 20kph faster

Yes it's certainly capable of running faster but in actual use if you're doing that lower speed that both motors are capable of then the faster wind motor will draw more power. Hence why I said it's about choosing the right tool for the job. If you don't need to be racing around at 80+ km/hr then use a slower wind motor and enjoy the cooler temps and better range from more efficiency.

For me it looks like theres no need to buy a slow wind 3525. BEcause he is just slow and not that better efficiency that it was worth to
pass on 20kph more Speed (WHEN you want ;P)

Yes if you can be very careful with the throttle then you CAN get good efficiency out of a faster motor, but the other thing to consider is the simulator is mainly showing you static data.

If you roll along a flat road at a given speed on a fast wind motor then yes they can be efficient.
If you're doing say 20km/hr and then accelerate to 40km/hr on a fast wind motor it will draw BULK amps, probably maxing out your controller limit.
If you do the same on a slower wind motor it doesn't draw nearly as much current. If you don't want a high speed monster you have to apply the throttle gently to keep it from sucking down the amps when you're just accelerating casually. The same thing happens when you up the voltage. I used to run my H4065 on 18S lipo and it was super efficient but on a few occasions I wanted a little more top speed on big open fire trails. I upped the voltage to 22S which gave it a little extra top and and more brisk acceleration but now it was drawing much more power when roaring around all the single track I was primarily riding. It was dumping heat and chewing through my battery quicker in the process.

In the early days when I first tested a slower wind motor I thought there was something wrong with my controller because it won't draw over 65 amps. I went back to the workshop and soldered up the shunt then went for another ride and still the same. It went well but just wouldn't pull high power like my previous motor did. I then swapped the previous motor back over and nailed it and it instantly drew 110 amps when I nailed it off the line. And this is what faster wind motors do, sure they have the higher top speed but they draw alot more current when accelerating towards it.

 

[Mammalian04]

This might be a question for a controller thread, but it is related so I'll ask it here.

Can the characteristics of having 18s and 22s be managed with the 3 position switches that the Cycle Analyst and Adaptto MaxE offer? In other words, can you have:
- Position 1 - "let my uninitiated friend ride the bike" with Max 20 amps
- Position 2 - Low speed hot rod - max 65 amps
- Position 3 - I am already up to speed at 38MPH and maxed out in position 2, now hit the position 3 and draw 110 amps to bring us straight to... dun dum dun dum dun... ludicrous speed!

Would this accomplish the same thing as "letting off the throttle" in the manner referenced above?

...and for those that got the reference.

 

[ecruz]

Almost done with battery pack. It is a thing of beauty! A Picasso lol Sony VTC5 pack 22sx12p at the moment. The way it is arranged you insert into the raptor the two side pieces first then the center 3.

 

[Rix]

Almost done with battery pack. It is a thing of beauty! A Picasso lol Sony VTC5 pack 22sx12p at the moment. The way it is arranged you insert into the raptor the two side pieces first then the center 3.

DAMN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! That pack is truly a work of beauty. Picasso has nothing on you. Please post a side view pic when its installed.

 

[ecruz]

That is 264 I am planning on moving it up to 308 for a 14p config waiting for them to arrive.

 

[snellemin]

Jesus Christ! I just became religious after seeing that pack.

 

[ecruz]

Jesus Christ! I just became religious after seeing that pack.

Hallelujah!

 

[Mammalian04]

Almost done with battery pack. It is a thing of beauty! A Picasso lol Sony VTC5 pack 22sx12p at the moment. The way it is arranged you insert into the raptor the two side pieces first then the center 3.

Wow! Are you planning the 14p for long trips or just so you don't have to charge all the time?

 

[ecruz]

Almost done with battery pack. It is a thing of beauty! A Picasso lol Sony VTC5 pack 22sx12p at the moment. The way it is arranged you insert into the raptor the two side pieces first then the center 3.

Wow! Are you planning the 14p for long trips or just so you don't have to charge all the time?

I have this desire to make it from Miami to Keywest with non or one small charge while having lunch.

 

[Mammalian04]

Almost done with battery pack. It is a thing of beauty! A Picasso lol Sony VTC5 pack 22sx12p at the moment. The way it is arranged you insert into the raptor the two side pieces first then the center 3.

Wow! Are you planning the 14p for long trips or just so you don't have to charge all the time?

I have this desire to make it from Miami to Keywest with non or one small charge while having lunch.

Nice! Sounds like a cool route.

 

[Rix]

Jesus Christ! I just became religious after seeing that pack.

Amen!

 

[Offroader]

It also seems I can get most of my acceleration out of the motor while only using half the wattage by not full throttling it. Using too much throttle seems to waste battery power and turn it into heat.

Exactly right, if they want to get the most out of their battery (and not heat up the motor) then keep an eye on the CA. You often find if you're going up a hill and back off to half throttle your speed might only drop by 2km/hr power you power consumption will drop in half, or even less.

What I notice is that if I push the throttle only like 1/4th the bike will accelerate at almost full wattage. To get half throttle it seems like I have to push the throttle a very tiny amount, like 1/8th a turn.

I guess this is normal because someone wrote over in the Max-E controller thread that most controllers will go full wattage at only half a turn.

I am not sure why it does this. I guess I can hook my throttle up to my cycle analyst.

 

[Merlin]

Quick change of subject for all you Raptorites...would a 167mm steerer length be enough on dual crown forks for the raptor? The head tube length is listed at 150mm on Qulbix site so I'm thinking 167mm doesn't leave much room for spacers, stem and head set. I accept the head set doesn't take any length (I think....) and you don't necessarily need spacers...but 17mm still seems a little tight to me. Also removes the ability to play with stem (and therefore handlebar) height. Any feedback from those that are up and riding on the frame?

Reason for the query, I've found a pair of second hand forks but the steerer length is 167mm.

when you go with a CNC "Steam" thats in one piece, 167mm can be enough. When you want i can make a pic of a sideview. I think you need just 15mm for the Top Bridge.

 

[Offroader]

Merlin, I don't think it will work at 167mm, measure your head tube, headset, and upper crown and let me know what you get. Because you're looking at 150 headtube, at least 10 mm for headset, and then you say 15mm for the upper crown. Maybe it can work because your steerer tube has to be a bit shorter for the top cap to fit.

What headset are you using? Do you have any noises from your headset? My cane creek is noisy and constantly makes a clicking noise.

 

[E-Fuel]

This things only happen to me!! :x

last night when I went to the garage the bicycle accidentally fell, immediately there was a short circuit and the controller began to burn as you can see in the photo.
Any suggestions for a new 110V controller ?…. because I have no great desire to buy another Lyen 18FET

thanks

by the way….. I want to sell my Qulbix frame to buy the new 140