Some people need ebikes to be a lot simpler

[ebike4healthandfitness]

I really like the simplicity of this fixed gear mid drive ebike (with left side throttle for regen):

Sleek electric fixie wheel bicycle fearlessly climbs hilly roads using its assistive riding feature - Yanko Design

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sdGivutEjog&ab_channel=AndreyAvgust Extract the best out of electric bicycles and fixed wheel bikes - the result is this dapper fixed gear electric bike for cities that have inclined roads. Fixies have been a very convenient way to commute in the cities, and...

www.yankodesign.com

"Fixies have been a very convenient way to commute in the cities, and rightfully make judicious use of the mechanics adapted from track racing and velodromes. To top it off they are very low maintenance which makes them a preferred ride amongst young riders. One downside is the need to constantly keep pedaling since the bicycle pedal and rear wheel are directly connected as they have no flywheel. Another shortcoming of fixed wheel bicycles is exposed when it comes to riding inclined hills. Designer Andrey Avgust wants to get rid of this disadvantage with his intuitive bicycle design fit for the urban landscape and the electrifying world."

Even the motor is a simple design being a hollow shaft direct drive unit:



And here is the top down shot showing the non dished rear wheel and what appears to be narrow q factor cranks in which both pedals are equidistant from the frame centerline:

 

[99t4]

Does anyone here remember when fixed gear bikes were very popular? (These were the single speed bikes, usually with no brakes (just back pedal for braking), typically running velocity deep V rims. People loved them because they were super tough, simple and reliable.

Nope, people loved them as status symbols. I know many who rode them. Suffered either blown-out knees or gnarly crashes. Fixie not really compatible with hilly terrain, especially with traffic/peds/poor road conditions.

 

[99t4]

Even the motor is a simple design being a hollow shaft direct drive unit:

I wouldn't call proprietary single-source major components simpler, would you?

 

[99t4]

This is why the average cassette or 7 speed freewheel wheel is so notorious for having problems. No matter how well made they just never last like a Dish-less wheel.

The majority of us seem to be doing ok. Does that matter?

 

[ebike4healthandfitness]

Nope, people loved them as status symbols. I know many who rode them. Suffered either blown-out knees or gnarly crashes. Fixie not really compatible with hilly terrain, especially with traffic/peds/poor road conditions.

Here is an article on the history of the fixed gear. The excerpt below explains why people switched from geared derailleur bikes to fixed gears during the boom that was the bike messenger business:

A Tale on Fixed-gear Bicycles

A series of articles, about fixed-gear bicycles, their history, benefits, danger and relevant information to help you understand why people…

medium.com

"Most bike couriers at the time were riding 10 speed bikes, following the markets trend. However those bicycles required more maintenance, they were more costly to run, they weighted more. When those dark forces from Mordor combine we have a big problem. You, a mere mortal, earning a hard pay, has to find a solution, which is not our friend Frodo Baggins. So riders began to look at simpler solutions, something that would give them less problems, that would help them to increase the amount of deliveries they did, meaning more cash at the end of the day. There my friend, is where we (finally!) meet (sort of) the track bikes or our lovely fixies. Few messengers had a background in cycling, competing, etc, and some of them opted in riding single-speed/fixed-gear bikes. Most probably serving as a catalyst to others in switching to these bikes too, it was the answer champs were looking for: cheaper, simpler, lighter and quicker machines to run. And that in our books means one thing: SCORE! All these positive points at the time probably made many riders switch to fixed-gear/single-speed bikes as seeing a solution to continue to take the girl out on Friday night."

So the reason is not status symbol as you say.

As far as hills go obviously that hurts, but we have electric now. Just look at how much electric has boosted kick scooters. Kick scooters are also terrible for going up hills but once you add electric that negative is no longer part of the equation.

 

[ebike4healthandfitness]

The majority of us seem to be doing ok. Does that matter?

Define "OK". If by "OK" you mean having to true the rear wheel on a regular basis then that would not be "OK" for the type of people I am thinking about.

 

[Papa]

Define "OK". If by "OK" you mean having to true the rear wheel on a regular basis then that would not be "OK" for the type of people I am thinking about.

Better yet,.. define "regular basis".

I rode "dished" wheels for over 20 years.... before I even purchased my very first spoke wrench. Really odd since I was a pro wrench at the time, with over three grand in automotive Snap On's.

Want "simplicity"?... then buy a conventional bicycle WITHOUT a motor.

 

[neptronix]

A well built ebike wheel with good spokes and a quality rim pretty much never needs to be trued and the dishing needed to make them work is also not a problem in practice.

These problems with hub motors and spokes were generally solved over a decade ago.

You want a simple ebike.. buy an ebay DD kit ( simplistic squarewave controller & screen that's not an integral part of the operation - if it even has one ), a battery, and enjoy.

A 7 speed drivetrain on a walmart bike is incredibly easy to tune and anyone is $20 and a bike shop away from getting it tuned ( 90% of the time we're talking about a knob at the end of the cable ) if one doesn't have the skill ( not hard to acquire )

Such kits have been on the market since the 2000's but consumers are choosing much more complex setups like mid drives with almost every part being proprietary and undocumented.

What you're looking for already exists, but people don't buy it.

 

[ebike4healthandfitness]

Better yet,.. define "regular basis".

See you know what I am referring to.

There is no such thing as a set and forget it dished rear wheel.

 

[ebike4healthandfitness]

A 7 speed drivetrain on a walmart bike is incredibly easy to tune and anyone is $20 and a bike shop away from getting it tuned ( 90% of the time we're talking about a knob at the end of the cable ) if one doesn't have the skill ( not hard to acquire )

The rear derailleur is very easy to damage. Furthermore, the smaller the diameter of the tire the easier it is to damage it.

So it's not just about learning how to tune it (or spending $20 at bike shop to have them tune it).

P.S. Those Walmart 7 speed freewheel bikes have another problem and that is an axle that is very easy to bend due to the freewheel moving the drive side bearing inward too much. The cassette freehub fixed this problem and so did 7 speed freewheel hub motors. The hub motors fixed this due to them having much thicker axles than the 10mm axles used by pedal bike 7 speed freewheel hubs. I bring this up because some people may want to use a front hub motor or mid drive rather than a rear hub motor.

 

[qwerkus]

Simple use usually means complicated repair in this world. Not sure this is a direction I'd take.

 

[yantra yatra]

I agree with OP. Too much maintenance and fiddling required with mid drives and derailleurs etc for most people. Strong Igh would help. Hubs lack the torque for big hills.

 

[99t4]

Here is an article on the history of the fixed gear.

One article with references to "Lord of the Rings" has not convinced me, well-loved fantasy novel as it was. Fixie has come and gone mostly. Like I said, blown-out knees and catastrophic crashes. Status symbol. Not because non-dished rear wheel.

 

[ebike4healthandfitness]

One article with references to "Lord of the Rings" has not convinced me, well-loved fantasy novel as it was.

Well then show me an article that disagrees with it.

All the articles I have read say the same thing and agree with the one I linked for you. Bike messenger (and bike messenger competitive events and bike messenger races) was what brought and kept fixed gear in the mainstream.

P.S. Here is a link from the New York times back in 1987:

https://www.nytimes.com/1987/06/14/nyregion/for-manhattan-couriers-brakeless-bikes-are-the-way-to-go.html

 

[ebike4healthandfitness]

Not because non-dished rear wheel.

Non-dished rear is not the only reason.

The fragility and lack of simplicity obvious goes beyond the wheel dish.

 

[leffex]

And I'm glad Bafang is working in this direction with their new automatic internal gear hubs.

Particularly impressive is their new 5 speed IGH rated at 200 Nm torque which they pair with their M620 "Ultra" mid drive.

I am assuming the next step will be to integrate that beefy 5 speed automatic IGH into the M620 "ultra" mid drive as we see numerous other companies doing with gearboxes and mid drive motors (e g. Pinion and Intradrive.... along with several others).

Bafang integrating the 5 speed automatic with the M620 will allow for dish-less wheel builds (even on frames with narrow rear spacing) and greater chain (or belt) to tire clearance.

A Dish-less wheel (at X distance between spoke flanges) is a simpler and more durable wheel.

But I don't think it should stop with Bafang.

Having a much more simplified and durable drive train is only part of the solution. Other parts of the bike also need to change as well. Perhaps Air-less tires will also be part of the solution:

Gecko Tyres Review – Puncture Proof and Sustainable

What Are Gecko Puncture Proof Tires? Having a puncture can be a total nightmare; you might find yourself stuck in unpleasant weather attempting the fix, or discover your particular type of tyre are one of those hard to get off the rim ones, or find that that you thought you had removed the...

electricbikereport.com

This so more people can enjoy biking without being intimidated by what they see as a overly complicated and fragile device.

Well

Is a fixie a simple bike?

I mean and old person can't even ride one.

Even an electrified fixie. Will not easily be understand because the pedals are moving whilst the motor only should run? hehe

However. I'd say a front wheel motor with easy steep on frame and 7 internal hub gears in the rear is pretty good for a simple ebike. For a city bike as well for the delivery guys. The delivery guys can hack and exchange the rear or front cog for their performance needs to increase their revenue.

That's what I call a simple ebike.

 

[molybdenum]

I'm not riding a fixie or a single speed, as I like to pedal and live in a hilly area. I've been riding 21-27 speed bikes for decades at 10k+ km/yr, been through several drive trains as the cassettes don't last much more than 10-15k km. Good quality deraileurs aren't hard to index and tune, and mine have needed minimal tweaking on a yearly basis. My fragile rear derailleur has 120k km on it and still works fine even with no bearings left on the pulley sprocket. Heavily dished wheels haven't given me much problems either. For those who can't fix their own, a yearly tune up should keep them on the road. I've only tried rear hubs, and these last forever if they aren't overheated. I've heard the mid-drives can be fiddly and can cause extra drivetrain wear but let you haul heavy loads up steep grades. Geared hubs will give better torq but can be more fragile especially if hucking air. Advantages and disadvantages so just go with what best fits your needs.

 

[slaphappygamer]

The majority of us seem to be doing ok. Does that matter?

Same. I can define “OK” as “non-issue”. I guess though, depends on user use/abuse. The term “normal wear and tear” comes to mind. This will be different for everyone as no ONE is the same.

If a user wants a “simple” ebike, they will get whatever bike, with a proprietary system, their local bike shop sells. You know the one, the one with the maintenance “warranty” that is only valid if regular “tune-ups” are scheduled and followed as per the shops policy.

 

[ebike4healthandfitness]

My fragile rear derailleur has 120k km on it and still works fine even with no bearings left on the pulley sprocket.

How many times have you had to replace the jockey wheels?

How many times have you had to replace or bend back your rear derailleur hanger?

 

[neptronix]

I've replaced a deraulleur hanger once in the last 20 years.
Used bikes with 10-20 year old 7/8 speed drivetrains that had no problems.
Currently using 7/8 speed still since i don't need more gears.

I primarily use hubmotors. My biggest pain point with bicycles is flat tires, but i think kenda tire and/or flatout solved those problems too.

 

[ebike4healthandfitness]

I'd say a front wheel motor with easy steep on frame and 7 internal hub gears in the rear is pretty good for a simple ebike.

I agree a front hub motor is a good choice for a simple ebike.

I assume many will think Freegen (i.e. geared hub motor that freewheels and yet still allows regen) is ideal as well for regenerative braking:

Especially this part of the video which points how a bi-directional torque arm is not needed:

However, a non geared hub motor (like the Grin All Axle) is still simpler even though it requires a bidirectional torque arm for regen and doesn't freewheel. I also like how the Grin All Axle (and other direct drive hub motors) can be used with back-pedal regen and rim brakes.

 

[neptronix]

Grin all axle actually freewheels quite well. I'm able to pedal it up to 19mph with full effort. That's 1mph faster than my full effort put into the very efficient leafbike 35m. It cruises longer too.

The original 9C version freewheels a tiny bit better because it has less strong magnets.

The only parts that might wear over time on a DD are the bearings. That's it, two bearings. You have a nice snug fit on the axle and pick a a quality motor and you won't have to worry about the axle ever.

A geared hub motor has 3 more mechanical parts that can fail. A mid drive has 6 or more mechanical parts that can fail.

This new neat geared motor with freewheeling and regen is somewhere between a mid drive and hub drive in terms of mechanical complexity. I do like the direction it goes in though, because electrical complexity is a larger pain in the ass typically.

 

[ebike4healthandfitness]

This article sums up the fragility of the rear derailleur rather nicely:

How To Adjust Your Rear Derailleur

www.agees.com

"Protect That Derailleur
Another adjustment needed is an "attitude" adjustment. It's important to always remember that the rear derailleur is fragile and must be protected. This is worth emphasizing because there are many times that the derailleur is at risk, such as during flat-tire repair (always lay the bike down gently on its left side so the derailleur doesn't touch the ground), while shipping a bike (shift onto the largest cog and pad the derailleur) and even parking your bike (make sure it can't topple). All it takes is the bike falling over for the rear derailleur to get hit and bent. Usually, we can fix the damage with special alignment tools. But, you can avoid the downtime by thinking of your derailleur as a delicate object and watching out for it.

Accidents Happen
If you do manage to crash or drop your bike and bend the derailleur, you might not notice. It's important to notice however, because once the derailleur is bent, bad things can happen such as shifting into the spokes, which may ruin the derailleur and might seriously damage the rear wheel and frame. Signs of having a bent derailleur include sudden hesitation shifting into harder gears and a clicking sound when you're on your largest cog (shift out of this gear immediately if you hear this sound because the derailleur is hitting the spokes and may get pulled into the wheel at any moment)."

Obviously there is more to it than that but I like how they emphasize the most important adjustment is an "attitude adjustment".

 

[gromike]

You know, I have over sixty years of riding derailleur bikes and have had precious few derailleur failures. I've never lived in that flat country, and when pedaling I sure needed some gears. I'm sure you could over power an electric bicycle and not need multiple gears for use in variable terrain, but that would be a poorly engineered machine from my perspective.

 

[ebike4healthandfitness]

I'm sure you could over power an electric bicycle and not need multiple gears for use in variable terrain, but that would be a poorly engineered machine from my perspective.

Actually it is just the reverse.

The best performance (power and efficiency) obtainable from a non geared direct drive hub motor is when the tire diameter is smallest. Unfortunately as one reduces tire diameter the tire must also become wider to compensate for the worsened angle of approach (of the smaller diameter). As tire width increases (assume a frame with proper chainstay clearance for for very wide tires is being used) and tire diameter decreases only one gear becomes possible because of lack of chain to tire clearance and lack of derailleur to ground clearance. However, the increased power and efficiency of the motor more than makes up for any loss of human efficiency that occurs from the lack of pedal drivetrain gear selection.