Some people need ebikes to be a lot simpler

[ebike4healthandfitness]

And I'm glad Bafang is working in this direction with their new automatic internal gear hubs.

Particularly impressive is their new 5 speed IGH rated at 200 Nm torque which they pair with their M620 "Ultra" mid drive.

I am assuming the next step will be to integrate that beefy 5 speed automatic IGH into the M620 "ultra" mid drive as we see numerous other companies doing with gearboxes and mid drive motors (e g. Pinion and Intradrive.... along with several others).

Bafang integrating the 5 speed automatic with the M620 will allow for dish-less wheel builds (even on frames with narrow rear spacing) and greater chain (or belt) to tire clearance.

A Dish-less wheel (at X distance between spoke flanges) is a simpler and more durable wheel.

But I don't think it should stop with Bafang.

Having a much more simplified and durable drive train is only part of the solution. Other parts of the bike also need to change as well. Perhaps Air-less tires will also be part of the solution:

Gecko Tyres Review – Puncture Proof and Sustainable

What Are Gecko Puncture Proof Tires? Having a puncture can be a total nightmare; you might find yourself stuck in unpleasant weather attempting the fix, or discover your particular type of tyre are one of those hard to get off the rim ones, or find that that you thought you had removed the...

electricbikereport.com

This so more people can enjoy biking without being intimidated by what they see as a overly complicated and fragile device.

 

[docw009]

In my opinion, the world needs ebikes that are cheaper and have safer batteries. Most poor folks know how to ride a bike and work the gears.

Bikes that are sophisticated like the above are cool, but they are also more complicated and more expensive, Maybe a few people need the simplicity of ride.

 

[ebike4healthandfitness]

In my opinion, the world needs ebikes that are cheaper and have safer batteries.

I agree that the world needs safer batteries as well as cheaper ebikes (that don't sacrifice safety or durability). That is a given.

However, the world also needs ebikes that are simpler to operate and maintain as well. This while also not being easily damaged. These bikes don't necessarily have to be the cheapest though.

Bikes that are sophisticated like the above are cool, but they are also more complicated and more expensive, Maybe a few people need the simplicity of ride.

A single speed pedal drive train with direct drive hub motor is pretty simple. If set up with regen it would be cheaper to maintain as well.

It just suffers from being (relatively) poor on hills. It's kinda heavy too which might be a negative for people who need to lift the bike up and have limited strength.

For me, perhaps the best representation of this (for someone riding on predominantly flat ground and not having to lift the bike much) would be a front direct drive motor with torque sensing coupled to back pedal regen and coaster brake. Front brake could be rim brake. No throttle though because of the coaster brake. (Re: with throttle operation there is always the risk of "riding" the coaster brake because the person no longer has to move the pedals constantly forward).

 

[ebike4healthandfitness]

The best "cheap" bike is the chromoly gem you unearth at your local secondhand... or Craigslist. Then go here BEFORE you screw-up buying inappropriate or unnecessary electronics. The "simplicity" will follow when you learn how to install,... and repair it.

Remember this is not a thread about whatever is the cheapest bike or whatever method makes the cheapest bike.

Also, some people don't want to build, wrench or service their bike. Ever. They are only interested if it can be simple, easy to operate and not easily damaged like an electric kick scooter.

 

[Papa]

The best "cheap" bike is the chromoly gem you unearth at your local secondhand... or Craigslist. Then go here BEFORE you screw-up buying inappropriate or unnecessary electronics. The "simplicity" will follow when you learn how to install,... and repair it.

This forum is about DoItYourself... not the continuous nurturing of overpriced junk that's been floating in from Asia for the last 50 years.

 

[ebike4healthandfitness]

This forum is about DoItYourself... not the continuous nurturing of overpriced junk that's been floating in from Asia for the last 50 years.

1. This forum is not only about DIY. DIY is merely an option. Like I said not all people are interested in DIY for various reasons

2. If you don't like imported Asian gear...then buy from somewhere else. This is also not a thread on whether to buy imported (Asia or other than Asia) or domestic. It is a thread about some people needing simpler bikes.

 

[glennb]

Agree regarding simplicity. The vast majority of people cannot maintain rim brakes, let alone derailleur gearing, fail to recognise compromised components/functionality, and cannot afford the servicing costs in any case. Drum brakes and IGH are far more practical for the majority of riders.

 

[docw009]

No stranger to high tech, but I didn't know how to tune a derailleur for 60 years. Good thing they invented youtube and RJ the bike guy.

 

[Zambam]

No stranger to high tech, but I didn't know how to tune a derailleur for 60 years. Good thing they invented youtube and RJ the bike guy.




.





.

+1 One of the better youtube videos is

It's hard for me to remember so I keep these 2 photos from this video on my phone on direction to turn the hi / lo screws and what it does to the chain.

 

[E-HP]

The first post regarding automatic gearing seems to be more in line with "Some people need bicycles to be a lot simpler" since shifting would be an issue even on a pedal bike for those folks that need those features.

 

[99t4]

A Dish-less wheel (at X distance between spoke flanges) is a simpler and more durable wheel.

In theory yes but how many complaints or reports do we see about failed or broken wheels from being dished? Almost none? Or am I missing something you are seeing? Or is wheel dish more of a non-issue?

 

[ebike4healthandfitness]

In theory yes but how many complaints or reports do we see about failed or broken wheels from being dished? Almost none? Or am I missing something you are seeing? Or is wheel dish more of a non-issue?

I commonly see reports of rear wheel spokes breaking.

With that said, it is not only about breaking spokes.....it is also about how often the rear wheel goes out of true.

A dish-less rear wheel with the same spacing between spoke flanges will require less maintenance in the form of truing comparing to one that is dished.

 

[ebike4healthandfitness]

Here is a Bafang Geared hub motor with integrated two speed automatic IGH:

零部件

Bafang description

bafang-e.com

Two speed for the pedal drive train, not two speed for the motor like we saw on the Xiongda.

 

[Papa]

ebike4healthandfitness;

Are you affiliated in any way with the bike/ebike industry e.g. manufacture, distributing, sales, or shop technician?

 

[ebike4healthandfitness]

ebike4healthandfitness;

Are you affiliated in any way with the bike/ebike industry e.g. manufacture, distributing, sales, or shop technician?

100% No.

I am a complete outsider.

P.S. Can we please keep this thread on topic.

 

[Papa]

100% No.

I am a complete outsider.

Then where's your data source for the following statements?...

1.) "Some people need ebikes to be a lot simpler"
2.) "This so more people can enjoy biking without being intimidated by what they see as a overly complicated and fragile device."

 

[ebike4healthandfitness]

Then where's your data source for the following statements?...

1.) "Some people need ebikes to be a lot simpler"
2.) "This so more people can enjoy biking without being intimidated by what they see as a overly complicated and fragile device."

People tell me that they don't like ebikes because they are too complicated and fragile. They say they would rather have an electric kick scooter instead.

 

[Papa]

People tell me that they don't like ebikes because they are too complicated and fragile. They say they would rather have an electric kick scooter instead.

People?

 

[docw009]

"A dish-less rear wheel with the same spacing between spoke flanges will require less maintenance in the form of truing comparing to one that is dished."

I'd disagree. Maybe if you build 1000 wheels. Build it with the right tension and good spokes. Take your time and do it right. Nothing will change unless you're jumping the bike. I've built maybe a dozen wheels, of all types, front/rear/no motors. It's not an art. High school kids do it in shops for minimum wage. I learned how to do it because the nearby shop wouldn't touch ebike wheels 8 years ago. I guess he did me a favor, Saved a lot of money doing it myself.

 

[ebike4healthandfitness]

"A dish-less rear wheel with the same spacing between spoke flanges will require less maintenance in the form of truing comparing to one that is dished."

I'd disagree. Maybe if you build 1000 wheels. Build it with the right tension and good spokes. Take your time and do it right. Nothing will change unless you're jumping the bike. I've built maybe a dozen wheels, of all types, front/rear/no motors. It's not an art. High school kids do it in shops for minimum wage. I learned how to do it because the nearby shop wouldn't touch ebike wheels 8 years ago. I guess he did me a favor, Saved a lot of money doing it myself.

Taking your time doesn't help because the non drive side spoke tension will always be less than the drive side on a dished wheel. For example, on 35mm length freehub Shimano wheel this causes the non drive side tension to be around ~62% of the drive side.

This is why the average cassette or 7 speed freewheel wheel is so notorious for having problems. No matter how well made they just never last like a Dish-less wheel.

 

[ebike4healthandfitness]

Does anyone here remember when fixed gear bikes were very popular? (These were the single speed bikes, usually with no brakes (just back pedal for braking), typically running velocity deep V rims. People loved them because they were super tough, simple and reliable.

Then electric kick scooters came along and now many companies that used to sell fixed gear frames and components or complete fixed bikes don't do so anymore.

 

[circuitsmith]

Does anyone here remember when fixed gear bikes were very popular? (These were the single speed bikes, usually with no brakes (just back pedal for braking), typically running velocity deep V rims.

Maybe all the people stupid enough to ride a bike with no brakes on city streets are no longer able to ride (dead or disabled).
That really cut down on the customer base.

 

[ebike4healthandfitness]

Maybe all the people stupid enough to ride a bike with no brakes on city streets are no longer able to ride (dead or disabled).
That really cut down on the customer base.

No doubt riding with only back pedal pressure and skid stop is not the safest way to operate a fixed gear bike but they were never known to be a danger to pedestrians like the modern ebike is. (Reason: the speed and energy of a typical operating fixed gear bike is much lower than a typical ebike).

Perhaps a good example, is the situation in NYC (once considered a hotspot for fixed gear bike activity). At the height of the fixed gears popularity not one time was a bill like the one shown below ever considered:

NY State Senate Bill 2021-S7206

Requires license plates for bicycles, bicycles with electric assist and electric scooters in New York city; requires a one time registration; requires a registration fee for such license plates.

www.nysenate.gov

If you look through NYC news you will see numerous angry citizens claiming as pedestrians they either suffered very serious injuries (such as paralysis) or knew about someone that died from a collision with an ebike.

 

[docw009]

Back to spokes/hub motors, we use different length spokes on each flange per the spoke calculators.

Spokes break because the chinese bikes go for 12G spokes, instead of the double butted Sapim 14G spokes, which cost me over a dollar each from a custom spoke cutter in Chicago. You can feel the diffrence in quality in the smoother turn on the nipples on good spokes. Cheap ones fell like they have burrs in the threads.

 

[ebike4healthandfitness]

Spokes break because the chinese bikes go for 12G spokes, instead of the double butted Sapim 14G spokes, which cost me over a dollar each from a custom spoke cutter in Chicago. You can feel the diffrence in quality in the smoother turn on the nipples on good spokes. Cheap ones fell like they have burrs in the threads.

Spokes break (typically at the elbow) because they get fatigued. This fatigue is accelerated when one or more spokes becomes loose and thus a fewer number of spokes must carry the load. Butted Spokes (when used on a not so rigid rim) help spread the load out to more elbows and thus lower the accumulation of fatigue that eventually leads to breakage at the elbow. However, butted spokes is not the only way to spread the load out to more elbows. A stiffer rim will also do this.

Not sure what the garden variety generic low end Chinese spoke is made from. No doubt it will not be as strong as name brand stainless steel spokes.....but the fact they are 12 guage is not the problem. It is the stiffness of the rim they are used on coupled to the fact they are not likely stress relieved during the wheel build that is the problem. This in addition to being made of lower quality steel.

Now getting back to the dish-less vs. dished wheel discussion.....a dished wheel with, for example, the non drive spokes at 62% of the tension of the drive spokes is obviously at a huge disadvantage as far as spokes going loose goes. This disadvantage of the non drive side spokes on a dished wheel is a separate issue from the discussion of thin butted spoke vs. thick spoke, flexible rim vs. stiff rim and generic chinese spoke vs. name brand stainless steel spoke that I brought up in the first two paragraphs of this post. In other words, simply using butted spokes on your dished wheel is not a hardware fix for the problem of "dish" (e.g. a dish-less wheel with butted spokes is always going to be better than a dished wheel with butted spokes)