Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

[Doctorbass]

$/Amp price on them is much better than the old 4110's though.

The powerfull Fet have so much improoved since 10 years! Luke! The great old time where 4110 were the king of the place to tripple power of simple cheap crystalyte controllers and where adding some solder to the shunt was the 2nd method to get more power lol

Doc

 

[Doctorbass]

The current sensor seems very interesting.

It is a "C" shape iron core with a hall sensor between the two ends.

Notice that on the version i got the poting continue all the way up to the phases and power input leads and suround them with the plastic cover lower parté I had to tear it apart to be able to remove the cover.

I'm sure that the ingres portection is nice on these one and even the ingres of screw driver inside is also well prevented :lol:

Doc

 

[Doctorbass]

Not sure there was pictures of the Sur Ron motor so i opened one ( a 2018) for your own pleasure :wink:

that motor had Hall sensor problem making the bike to have some cut out. We can see that there was water intrusion inside on the hall sensor cover and that it went down to the stator core base. The humidity made light rust everywhere inside.

I did not found any drain hole or chanel on that motor.

Lamination seem to be 0.35mm visually i was not able to measure it.

The winding is made of 0.88mm strands ( gauge 20 + insualtion thickness) and each phase see to have enough to make a 6 or 8 gauge equivalent.

The phase to phase inductance is about 50uH.

DC resistance phase to phase ( manually measured with 4 wire kelvin method using Fluke 189 milivoltmeter and Xantrex XFR 100-12 current source:

Yellow to Green: 10.158miliohms
Yellow to Blue: 9.907miliohms
Blue to Green: 10.098miliohms





The rotor width is 32mm

there is plenty of room left inside both side covers

Bearing are NSK 6305DU and there is a rubber seal inside the bearing hole of the side covers

Doc

 

[motomoto]

Seems crazy to me watching Luke and Doctorbass playing with stock Sur-ron controllers and motors, when they have done
the most bad ass stuff on the planet, far beyond the power of this bike. Hasn't Luke taken this bike way beyond what is even possible 2 years ago?

 

[stepus]

Hi, can you measure motor winding resistance ?
About deppoting, it's quite difficult, I recommend unscrewing the screws from the plastic cover and put the controler to the owen, but iam not sure if plastic cover and wires will survive. Plastic cover has a groove that is glued with silicone, and then they pour potting compound inside controller, and potting also rises in chimney at terminals. I had a luck i broke only (-) Battery terminal and did not damage much plastic cover... After i took off plastic cover i slightly heated up aroud connector, and started deppoting, and carefully disconnecting connector. After i took off wires with plastic cover i wrapped the capacitors and the connector with Kapton tape and baked it in owen at about 100celsius. I deppoted it with a toothpick, and other woodstick, i was able to slipped between potting and board without damage. I baked it about 3 times, and when i was deppoting i helping it with hot air gun also.
About future tunning :
I have ordered 20 fets from RS-online - they have on stock 60pcs, but when i ordered them they found out that only have 10 pieces in stock. So i will have only 10pcs of IPB042N10N3, but i find they do same chip with same package, but legs are straight, not bended for SMD soldering, its called IPI045N10N3, but everthing looks same, they have same datasheet but only different thing looks RdsOn, and current ratings are worse. So i ordered another 2 pcs of them, and i will bend legs manualy.
https://www.tme.eu/Document/f0cfc0a355bb37fce6ed90a4c3500c4b/IPI045N10N3G-DTE.pdf

my question is, after i will have fets, what do you prefer ? put this weaker fets in upper transistor array or a lower ? High side transistors are more loaded at duty over 50%, and lower fets with duty 0-50%. So it will be better to put them on High side so low side will be stronger for phase amps ? I will place them on two phases, so two phases will be a little weaker at high side?
thanks for advise

I also did some current carrying and mechanical strengthening on terminals, because they break from board very easily without potting

 

[fechter]

I think you really want all the FETs to be the same and from the same batch so they are well matched.

I like the reinforcement on the terminals. I've seen a couple controllers fail when one of those cracked at the base. It won't hurt to put some epoxy around them when you get everything done.

 

[stepus]

I think that slightly different FETs will not affect so much. There are actual datasheets of them:
https://www.infineon.com/dgdl/Infineon-IPI045N10N3%20G-DS-v02_10-EN.pdf?fileId=5546d4625d5945ed015d9897792104f5
https://www.infineon.com/dgdl/Infineon-IPB042N10N3%20G-DS-v02_09-EN.pdf?fileId=db3a30431ce5fb52011d1e8b0cc31586

diference between these two is only 0.3mOhm (IPB 4.2mOhm, IPI 4.5mOhm)
Who knows if this difference is not only given by the package, because the IPI package has a drain on the foot and tab, and IPB has a on a tab.
But i will solder tab on IPI package - so it will be maybe same. Because when I look at the datasheets they are both the same only the RdsON is different. So it looks there is inside same chip, but RDSon is differently measured between TAB-Drain against LEG-Source on IPB package, and LEG-Drain against LEG-Source on IPI package.

BTW fets is good for paralering they will heat up individualy - higher RDSon on these fets, and more current flows through colder fets or with lower RdsON, - they will heatup too, and all transistors will equalize and have same current flowing.

 

[Doctorbass]

Hi, can you measure motor winding resistance ?

Yes it's done now, go back to my post :wink:

Doc

 

[stepus]

Hi,
thanks for DC resistance measurment, 10mOhms is what i expected. Its good for stock surron power, at constant 100Amps it will heat at 100W only on copper resistance, but for higher phase amps like 600A uphill its 3600W
A little update:
Mosfets have already arrived and I soldered them. It was pretty hard, i must use IR preheat, and hot air gun, classic SMD soldering air station did not have sufficient power. Now I have assembled the controller and see if it still works on surron, and hope i will finaly shunt it to BMS limit, and then shunt BMS to maximum cell current, and then shunt controller for maximum with can stock battery handle

 

[n2mb]

Impressive work!

 

[sens_dep]

Anyone selling those 60v52ah batteries in the US? Trying to avoid a few months of shipping time. :?

 

[stepus]

Hi, a little update:
I succeeded shunted it !
firstly i changed sensitivity from 50mV/10A (batt current 60amp, phs current +-350A) to 33mV/10A - power increased to 83A battery, and 430 phase current, so i changed it to about 25mv/10A (double of my stock power) and now i drawing about 118 battery amps, and 550 phase amps. And it drives as hell ! its whelee machine now, it do wheel spin or instant whelee from standstill
I will increase it to about 125 battery amps, and must do shunt BMS, now i get er - 119 on display which is overcurrent fault, or BMS cuts me in a long hill when i run full throttle...
I thing controller can handle even more amps, but stock battery limits me, there is only 11 cells paralel and each cell is 10Amps continous discharge... And i dont want to damage it.
Later i will maybe post some youtube video how to do, and with results.

edit: Does anyone know how much battery current is drawing ASI BAC / NUCULAR on stock surron battery with BMS mod bypass ?

 

[Stasus]

Battery 72v58Ah (4.2kwh) with custom cover and spaces to seat, range~75miles, peak power 19kw

 

[Stasus]

it: Does anyone know how much battery current is drawing ASI BAC / NUCULAR on stock surron battery with BMS mod bypass ?
[/quote]how much you put and how much it will be! connect the wattmeter and you will see how the canteen battery is bad at 100A)

 

[Offroader]

Would anyone know if my battery would have drained down completely?

I have my own modified power supply to charge the sur-ron. However, if I plug in the charger and disconnect the AC power to the charger, the charger still stays on from the power of the battery. This drained my battery down very quickly.

Does anyone know if the charge port of the sur-ron is low voltage protected? Or if my AC power gets unplugged my battery will discharge to 0 volts from the charge port?

 

[fechter]

I think you can discharge from the charge port with no protection. Most PSUs will only drain a few milliamperes when disconnected from AC. It would take a really long time to completely drain the pack.
One solution to the charger is to put a relay in series with the output that is powered by the AC line.

 

[fechter]

Hi, a little update:
I succeeded shunted it !
firstly i changed sensitivity from 50mV/10A (batt current 60amp, phs current +-350A) to 33mV/10A - power increased to 83A battery, and 430 phase current, so i changed it to about 25mv/10A (double of my stock power) and now i drawing about 118 battery amps, and 550 phase amps. And it drives as hell ! its whelee machine now, it do wheel spin or instant whelee from standstill
I will increase it to about 125 battery amps, and must do shunt BMS, now i get er - 119 on display which is overcurrent fault, or BMS cuts me in a long hill when i run full throttle...

How did you change the current limit?

It can take at least 180A battery without frying if you have a bigger battery.

 

[stepus]

i have seen on youtube videos that ASI BAC is set for about 120 battery amps on stock battery , so i lowered a little bit sensitivity to increase power a little bit
I have a stock surron battery, i need to modify bms to let me draw bigger current continously, now it let me draw about 7seconds 118Amps, and then cut me off.
Yes i thing too, that controller is capable more battery amps, and even maybe 72V will survive... but now i have a stock surron battery which is weak so i dont want to push it too much over the limit. Maybe later i will buy some 72V battery for more power.
i have changed current limit by offseting that rings around hall sensors - weaken magnetic flux flowing throught hall sensor -> smaller sensitivity... I will post some photos/video later...

Battery 72v58Ah (4.2kwh) with custom cover and spaces to seat, range~75miles, peak power 19kw

your setup is great, but battery + ASI costs as a half of surron, my mod costs me only 25 bucks for extra transistors , And i have L1E version, so everything on DASH is working and no warning lights etc,mine looks like a sleeper - not modified bike so i can confuse another surron drivers

 

[BigBird]

Stasus - The battery in your picture below doesn't seem large enough for 4.2KWH of batteries? Can you tell us what type and quantity of cells you are using?

 

[Merlin]

...you missed he is using Seatrisers.
that makes it look "stock"
Battery pops out ~10cm above normal.

 

[BigBird]

I have a litespeed 20s10p 72v40ah Using Molicel P42A 21700 Cells that is at least as tall as the one pictured below.

So my question is how did you get 42 KWH into the same size or smaller package???

 

[sens_dep]

I have a litespeed 20s10p 72v40ah Using Molicel P42A 21700 Cells that is at least as tall as the one pictured below.

So my question is how did you get 42 KWH into the same size or smaller package???

I’m guessing it’s pouch cells. Same way they can fit nearly 52ah in almost the same size as the stock battery.

 

[Finer]

I'm using the new Chi Battery. 60v, 63ah, 3,628wh. It uses Molicels. Same size as stock battery. Stock battery cover works fine.

 

[BigBird]

The CHI Battery is a Very interesting product! I have 3 questions (which I just posted on their Facebook page.
1 - How is it that you are able to get so many Watt Hours into a pack that is only a little bigger than the stock SurRon and much smaller than competitors (like Lite Speed) need for fewer Watt Hours?
2 - And since your battery is used with the stock SurRon controller - Does that mean that you have some how limited the peak amp output to something not too much above stock SurRon?
3 - What is your max steady amp output and will it trip the SurRon BMS limits if you stay on the power for too long?

 

[sens_dep]

CHI battery says they are posting a newer version of the battery this coming week. Very excited to see what they mean. Definitely gonna pick one up.