Tabless design cylindrical cells tests

..and just like that my Samsung 21700 50S pack i purchased 3 months ago looks like old tech.

So awesome that we're getting high discharge rates on these high energy cells lately!
 
..and just like that my Samsung 21700 50S pack i purchased 3 months ago looks like old tech. So awesome that we're getting high discharge rates on these high energy cells lately!
Click to expand...

The battery stuff I seeing on youtube is presenting breakthroughs from CATL and StoreDot that are hard to believe. If only half-true, its amazing stuff. I don't know how long the tech will take to trickle down to us...
 
series_hybrid said:
The battery stuff I seeing on youtube is presenting breakthroughs from CATL and StoreDot that are hard to believe.
Click to expand...
Not to say that there isn't new and promising battery tech out there. However, it's the #1 job of tech youtube channels to overhype for more channel views. So it's not surprising that it's hard to believe.
 
series_hybrid said:
The battery stuff I seeing on youtube is presenting breakthroughs from CATL and StoreDot that are hard to believe. If only half-true, its amazing stuff. I don't know how long the tech will take to trickle down to us...
Click to expand...
The claims by StoreDOT and CATL are indeed legitimate.
The trick is when they'll trickle down to the lovely cylindrical cell formats we all love.

I'd love for a 200Wh/kg LFP cell with 4C continous charging capabilities.
 
series_hybrid said:
BlueSwordM, besides StoreDot and CATL, what other battery labs have legitimate breakthrough advances in batteries?
Click to expand...
Great question.

There's Tesla with their dry battery **cathode** and anode tech. Dry electrodes are an important advancement as they greatly decrease the energy use in manufacturing and speeds it up as well.

There's Lishen and EVE making high power density tabless cylindrical cells.

Let's not forget Molicel utilizing Group14's SCC55's anode for extreme charging power density with very high cycle life (1).
This quote in particular is rather interesting: `"Thanks to Group14's SCC55®, Molicel's P50B™ can have a similar life cycle range to iron-phosphate batteries, but with double the power density and half the charge times of the best cylindrical lithium-ion batteries on the market today,"`

Welion makes semi solid-state High Ni + lithium/Si-C HE(360Wh/kg) cells (2).

There's Lyten trying to scale production of high cycle life (500+) lithium sulfur cathode with a graphene structural and electrical backing using lithium anodes (3).

(1) Group14's Silicon Battery Material Enables Breakthrough Power and Charging Performance with Molicel's "P50B" Ultra-High Power Cells

(2) NIO's semi-solid state EV battery supplier ramps output as 621-mi range ET7 rolls out

(3) PRESS RELEASE: Lyten Ships Lithium-Sulfur Battery A-Samples for Automotive, Consumer Electronics, and Military Customer Evaluation
 
thermal_runaway said:
Not sure if Molicel's XA lineup has been posted yet.
  • XA3 - 4Ah - 40C charge, 90C discharge
  • XA2 - 3.5Ah - 60C charge, 90C discharge
  • XA1 - 2.6Ah - 50C charge, 100C discharge
Almost certainly going to be only for motorsports but very very cool stuff.
Click to expand...
Nobody seems to have posted it in this forum, but it was posted on Linkedin:
www.linkedin.com

Kieran O'Regan on LinkedIn: 🔋 Molicel's High Power Batteries showcased at AABC feature charges as… | 15 comments

🔋 Molicel's High Power Batteries showcased at AABC feature charges as quick as 1 minute (60C)! 🏎️ XA Range: Tailored for motorsports, these extreme… | 15 comments on LinkedIn
www.linkedin.com www.linkedin.com
 
riba2233 said:
wow this looks too good to be real! what are they doing and why aren't big three doing anything even close to that?! lol, so exciting, can't wait to see some tests :)
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Because none of these cells are capable of a true sustained >10C, maybe >20C charge rate if thermally prepared.

These are just peak power regen braking figures :)
 
New 46mm cylindrical are beginning to appear on the open market.
EVE Power's INR4695P and INR4695E cells appear to have begun mass production!
Here's some preliminary information:

INR4695P or "G13" (Power variant):
Rated: 27.4Ah
Capacity: 100.0Wh
Nominal cell voltage: 3.68V
This is at 1/3C and 25±2℃, voltage range 2.8-4.20V

INR4695E or "G16" (Energy variant):
Rated: 31.9Ah
Capacity: 117.7Wh
Nominal cell voltage: 3.68V
This is at 1/3C and 25±2℃, voltage range 2.8-4.25V (nb. @Pajda, sharp eyes! I had to look to notice.)

More information on these should start circulating in the coming weeks and months.
At first glance, it seems the Power variant is a bit of a let down considering its energy/performance trade-offs, relative to the Energy variant. A bit too soon to tell, test data should give a better idea. 👍

EVE Power INR4695 (2).jpgEVE Power INR4695 (1).jpg
 
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Souvlucky said:
New 46mm cylindrical are beginning to appear on the open market.
EVE Power's INR4695P and INR4695E cells appear to have begun mass production!
Here's some preliminary information:

INR4695P or "G13" (Power variant):
Rated: 27.4Ah
Capacity: 100.0Wh
Nominal cell voltage: 3.68V
This is at 1/3C and 25±2℃, voltage range 2.8-4.20V

INR4695E or "G16" (Energy variant):
Rated: 31.9Ah
Capacity: 117.7Wh
Nominal cell voltage: 3.68V
This is at 1/3C and 25±2℃, voltage range 2.8-4.25V (nb. @Pajda, sharp eyes! I had to look to notice.)

More information on these should start circulating in the coming weeks and months.
At first glance, it seems the Power variant is a bit of a let down considering its energy/performance trade-offs, relative to the Energy variant. A bit too soon to tell, test data should give a better idea. 👍
Click to expand...

Nice, do we know their continuous C ratings?
 
riba2233 said:
Nice, do we know their continuous C ratings?
Click to expand...
Unfortunately, not yet.
For EVE 4695 cells I've found 5 second peak current safety values:

G16: 139A discharge (-4.3C) above freezing temperature, 35A (+1.1C) charging between 25℃ and 55℃.
G13: 157A discharge (-5.7C) above freezing temperature, 39A (+1.4C) charging between 25℃ and 55℃.

Most likely OEMs and automakers inform their decisions based on chamber test data, to understand and decide the regimes they feel comfortable running their cells/modules/packs at. (In some LG Energy Solutions pouch cell flyers, peak values are given stating: "* Remark : It is the max current value at a certain OEM's system level, not the value at the cell itself.")

Pajda said:
Are they already in stock at an established supplier?
Click to expand...
Not that I've seen on the open market.
Maybe a couple reputable retailers (carton level) and semi-wholesalers (pallet level)?
Every now and then, there is the reseller piggy-backing on others' stocks and passing them off as their own:

1720641491250.png
 
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It seems that EVE is bringing tabless to the 18650 format with 30PL, supposedly good for "60A continuous".

A caveat is that it is (like the Muratas, seemingly) exclusive to certain customers (my personal guess is TTI requested it..) for now, at least during the pre-production sampling phase.
 
Great news, 30PL would be something I would love to see in a smallest@lightest battery for my EGO tools.

I have to admit that after my initial look at the tabless design in the 4680 I was pretty skeptical that it would be mass produced anytime soon and especially that it could be price-competitive. Well, now it looks like it's worth using in the 18650 as well

Today, the Molicel P30B almost handles 30A continuous 100% DoD at 25°C ambient temp with the 80 °C cut-off. If the tabless design pushed this close to 40A, that would be a huge improvement. I also think that Nickel busbars will then become a significant limiting element and so Cu or Al will have to be used.
 
Pajda said:
Great news, 30PL would be something I would love to see in a smallest@lightest battery for my EGO tools.

I have to admit that after my initial look at the tabless design in the 4680 I was pretty skeptical that it would be mass produced anytime soon and especially that it could be price-competitive. Well, now it looks like it's worth using in the 18650 as well
Click to expand...
Yeah, it's pretty amazing, the last quote I got for 40PLs is <$1 premium over 40Ts. 30PLs would be really neat in a Milwaukee M12...
 
Here is some information about the EVE 18650 30PL:

"The 18650 30PL, independently developed by EVE, adopts the innovative design of full lug battery structure, which can effectively reduce the impedance of the battery and increase the battery power.
While achieving overall lightweight and miniaturization, the energy density is as high as 249Wh/kg, which can achieve 8min ultra-fast charging, support up to 60A continuous discharge [conduction cooling?], increasing the duration of 30A continuous discharge by 100% [convection cooling?], and enabling 40A for 600 cycles, support -40℃ discharge (...)"

Source (in Mandarin)
 
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Came across the annual report of Taiwan Cement (Molicel's parent company) published in March, which provides some additional insight into the current development pipeline. For what people are probably interested in:
(3) Technologies and products that have been successfully developed include:
• The 21700-P50B product has entered the mass production verification stage.
• The 21700-P60B product has completed R&D engineering verification
• The 21700-XA2 product has completed R&D engineering verification.
• Engineering verification of multipolar ear copper-aluminum welding has been completed.
• Development and verification of the X Series high ion conductivity and high-rate electrolyte have been completed.
• Completion of battery formation/ regulation design, improving fast charging cycle life to +5/-1 1000 cycles with an 80% capacity retention rate.
• Certification of fast-charging anode graphite system development, enabling 5C charging and enhancing product competitiveness.
• High-capacity silicon anode material development completed, achieving reversible capacity of over 1900mAh/g.
• Establishment of the next-generation Ni91 cathode system completed, incorporating concentration gradient structure concept to enhance cycle stability
(4) Future R&D plans for participation in and assistance, as well as new products slated for development:
• Development of High-Capacity and Stability Advanced Cathode Materials:
- Development of Ni94 single crystal high-nickel cathode materials.
- Stability enhancement project for high-nickel cathode materials with concentration gradients and radialstructures.
- Development of high-nickel cathode materials with nanoparticles.
• Development of High-Capacity and Fast-Charging Advanced Anode Material Platforms:
- Research on small particle size and high compaction synthetic graphite to reduce ion diffusion resistance.
- Enhancements in anode efficiency and usability stability, including improvements from the material's intrinsic properties, assistance from conductive materials, and performance boosts from new adhesives.
- Development of high stability, high-capacity silicon materials.
• Development of the 21700-P60B Cell and Multipole Shanks System Design and Manufacturing:
- Introduction of a new generation of anode and cathode material systems.
- Design and development of cell safety.
- Design and development of multipole shanks.
- Implementation of artificial intelligence for battery life prediction and health analysis.
• Development of Ultra-High Power 21700-XA3 Cells and Non-polar Ear System Design and Manufacturing:
- Optimization of multipolar ear welding.
- High-rate electrode design.
- Development of non-polar ear processes.
Click to expand...
 
@thermal_runaway thank you for this material. This also indicates that HP series cells from Molicel also can have NCA cathode (I've been living under the assumption that NCA uses only their HE series). On the other hand, it is an academic question how much difference there can be between modern NCA and NMC cathodes if both have high-nickel (>90 %) composition.

I also wonder who is the customer for 5C continuous charging? Particularly under+5C/-1C load profile. If these were to be designed for passenger BEVs, then for 80-100 kWh batteries this equates to 400-500 kW of charging power. Where such DCFC network will definitely not be widely available soon. Aslo this power is touching the practical current limits of the CCS Type-2 connectors, where NACS is not doing much better.
 
Pajda said:
I also wonder who is the customer for 5C continuous charging? Particularly under+5C/-1C load profile. If these were to be designed for passenger BEVs, then for 80-100 kWh batteries this equates to 400-500 kW of charging power. Where such DCFC network will definitely not be widely available soon. Aslo this power is touching the practical current limits of the CCS Type-2 connectors, where NACS is not doing much better.
Click to expand...
Yes, the 5C is interesting; perhaps an industry focused on fast turnaround time (one of those e-scooter stations?) rather than performance. Most eVTOLs are on CCS but I believe Joby has their own system, those are also only high power during hover while cruise flight is relatively low rate.
 
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