TSDZ2 mid drive with 860C, 850C or SW102 displays only -- Flexible OpenSource firmware (Casainho code only)

[jbalat]

All the top end ebikes go to 120 cadence. I can't remember ever topping out on my trek powerfly yet I have topped out rpm on my tsdz2 many times. So please aim for 120 as a maximum

 

[Waynemarlow]

I don't want to influence you but my guess would be that very very very few riders on this forum, would be able to push into the 100's for any thing more than a few seconds, let alone run regularly ride in that 100 - 110 bracket. That's for the fitties among us and my guess those fitties are probably riding non Ebikes more often than not to be able to pull those rpm's.

The version 20 seems to be in that nice zone, whats the upper limit on that ? I can't get enough rpm to be really able to test its experimental setting as I peak out at about 100, are others getting higher.

The other thing to consider are we going down a bit of a rabbit hole, would the best motor + human input efficiency be lower rpm and change gears more, would the best miles per battery be at lower rpm where the human ergonomics gets the most amount of torque ( levers ) and where the motor is in its most efficient band rpm wise.

Lots to think about.

 

[jbalat]

Dont be frightened the aim of the project is to achieve maximum efficiency at all speeds up to 120 rpm, rest assured that you will not feel any difference if you struggle to reach 100

As I said before it is very rare to peddle above 100 but when you have to the last thing you want is for the motor to top out before your legs do

 

[casainho]

All the top end ebikes go to 120 cadence. I can't remember ever topping out on my trek powerfly yet I have topped out rpm on my tsdz2 many times. So please aim for 120 as a maximum

Ok so probably I will reduce the PWM frequency for 115 max cadence then reduce a bit the efficiency for up to 120 RPM and then TSDZ2 will be on pair to top end ebikes. Currently this can only be achieved with like a 48V battery for the 36V motor and maybe the 60V 15S batteries. I hope to get the field weaking working and then I hope this will improve for same battery and motor voltage.

And about energy efficient, all this will be explained to user on the wiki and the user, hopefully, will be able to disable field weaking.
User will be able to verify the efficiency by looking at the value battery power usage per km. Lower assist level, lower motor power usage, lower motor current ramp and no field weaking, will be the best for battery range. Than also user can decide to use a battery with lower internal resistance to increase more the efficiency. I would do all this for bike packing travels.

On contrary, user may pull max motor power constantly and will have low battery range, like for daily commuting.

Sometimes I do MTB of 3 hours 40 kms or very differently 6-8 hours 75 kms. I always prefer to have a light and agile response so I want a light battery but at the same time high cadence but not much motor max power...

So yes, I have at least this 3 different ride styles / needs, with the same ebike where sometimes I only change the battery to have a big or smaller and lighter one.

 

[Waynemarlow]

:thumb:

 

[mctubster]

I don't want to influence you but my guess would be that very very very few riders on this forum, would be able to push into the 100's for any thing more than a few seconds, let alone run regularly ride in that 100 - 110 bracket. That's for the fitties among us and my guess those fitties are probably riding non Ebikes more often than not to be able to pull those rpm's.

Don't forget the far more common state of having a half or quarter full battery, dropping the max rpm of the motor by 20% or more. So even if your max cadence is 90 this will significantly improve performance as your battery drops below nominal voltage.

 

[casainho]

New version 860C_850C_SW102_v0.9.0-beta.2:

https://github.com/OpenSource-EBike-firmware/Color_LCD/releases/tag/860C_850C_SW102_v0.9.0-beta.2

Changelog:
- added coast brake ADC sensitivity configuration (Various menu): the TSDZ2 coast brake version should now fully work on this firmware version
- added configuration for cadence fast stop mode (Various menu), which is enabled by default. Enable for regular bicycles and disable for some full suspension bicycles

 

[bikesnobyyc]

All the top end ebikes go to 120 cadence. I can't remember ever topping out on my trek powerfly yet I have topped out rpm on my tsdz2 many times. So please aim for 120 as a maximum

I would echo this comment. I ride a TSDZ2 fat bike on winter trails and the motor will lose power partway up short steep ascents as it goes past 90RPM. Momentary RPMs of 115-120 would be a big benefit as you can't realistically shift gears under full load in these situations. For now, I just make sure I gear down a lot before even approaching a steep hill, but that really slows down the initial part of the climb. I could see the added RPM also being really useful in any future eMTB implementation. I also ride a 2019 Specialized Turbo Levo and it handles the short high-RPM bursts flawlessly... it's really nice to have.

 

[vshitikov]

All the top end ebikes go to 120 cadence. I can't remember ever topping out on my trek powerfly yet I have topped out rpm on my tsdz2 many times. So please aim for 120 as a maximum

I would echo this comment. I ride a TSDZ2 fat bike on winter trails and the motor will lose power partway up short steep ascents as it goes past 90RPM. Momentary RPMs of 115-120 would be a big benefit as you can't realistically shift gears under full load in these situations. For now, I just make sure I gear down a lot before even approaching a steep hill, but that really slows down the initial part of the climb. I could see the added RPM also being really useful in any future eMTB implementation. I also ride a 2019 Specialized Turbo Levo and it handles the short high-RPM bursts flawlessly... it's really nice to have.

Wow I just checked, turbo levo motor and for that price of ebike and a motor I will carry you on my back on those steep hills

16A tiny motor will not work as 0.5kW heavy duty motor that can absorb those peaks from battery. It will overheat ... there is no magic - a motor rotating at 90RPM and providing torque will heat up and damage itself quickly as you have to dissipate these power losses.

 

[bikesnobyyc]

All the top end ebikes go to 120 cadence. I can't remember ever topping out on my trek powerfly yet I have topped out rpm on my tsdz2 many times. So please aim for 120 as a maximum

I would echo this comment. I ride a TSDZ2 fat bike on winter trails and the motor will lose power partway up short steep ascents as it goes past 90RPM. Momentary RPMs of 115-120 would be a big benefit as you can't realistically shift gears under full load in these situations. For now, I just make sure I gear down a lot before even approaching a steep hill, but that really slows down the initial part of the climb. I could see the added RPM also being really useful in any future eMTB implementation. I also ride a 2019 Specialized Turbo Levo and it handles the short high-RPM bursts flawlessly... it's really nice to have.

Wow I just checked, turbo levo motor and for that price of ebike and a motor I will carry you on my back on those steep hills

16A tiny motor will not work as 0.5kW heavy duty motor that can absorb those peaks from battery. It will overheat ... there is no magic - a motor rotating at 90RPM and providing torque will heat up and damage itself quickly as you have to dissipate these power losses.

I totally understand. I wasn't suggesting that the TSDZ2 should be pushed to develop the same power bursts as a Levo, only that it would be a nice addition if the motor didn't cutout so abruptly after 90RPM and could handle some higher RPMs. I'm always amazed how good this little motor is, though... I can ride a steep 5 minute mountain trail on my fat bike in a low gear and the motor housing will only be slightly warm! I know that's not the same as the internals, but it seems fine.

 

[skestans]

I'm running v0.6.5 on my 850C but it has become unpractical because it gets too many initialization misfires (where it either reads the torque sensor wrong, provides no assist, provides way too much assist on barely touching the pedals, or makes a horrible noise as it assists.) I understand this has been fixed in later releases.

So I'll have to flash a new version on the motor and the display. The thing is that I need this bicycle to be 100% functional and reliable: it's my only means of transportation and I depend on it.

With this requirement of dependability, which version should I go for? Which version is the most stable for daily use?

Thanks!

 

[casainho]

You guys get ready to try the field weakening!! I will soon do a release:

This were quick tests with constant load (bike training):
No field weaking: motor speeds erps: 543, battery voltage: 57V, battery current: 3.6A, motor power: 205 watts
Field weaking: motor speeds erps: 678, battery voltage: 57V, battery current: 5.6A, motor power: 320 watts

So, the field weakening were able to increase motor speed / pedal cadence by 125% but the with an increase of battery current / motor power of 155%. Since the load was the same but the speed did increase, in fact, the loss of efficiency is 24% only!!!

(Please check the math, I may did some errors)

 

[AZUR]

You guys get ready to try the field weakening!! I will soon do a release:

This were quick tests with constant load (bike training):
No field weaking: motor speeds erps: 543, battery voltage: 57V, battery current: 3.6A, motor power: 205 watts
Field weaking: motor speeds erps: 678, battery voltage: 57V, battery current: 5.6A, motor power: 320 watts

So, the field weakening were able to increase motor speed / pedal cadence by 125% but the with an increase of battery current / motor power of 155%. Since the load was the same but the speed did increase, in fact, the loss of efficiency is 24% only!!!

(Please check the math, I may did some errors)

Very good !

 

[AZUR]

Hi,

You can see below an activity stored on the Smartphone during a ride. You need to start the activity and in the end finish it. This is the Turbo Levo smartphone app. The bluetooth and GPS are on during the ride.

The new version of the TurboLevo bike has an electronic mechanism that detects when the bike is going up and when it is going down.

On the bicycle where these data were taken, this mechanism did not exist.

-----------------------------------------------------------
BLEvo v3.5.6 iOS

Statistical data for my ride Sun, 22 Mar 2020 12:28:31 WET

Short statistics:

- Elapsed time: 1:29:23
- KM total: 28.46 km
- Speed average: 19.1 km/h
- Ascent total: +535 m
- Battery Consumed: 24% (106 Wh)
- Consumption average: 3.72 Wh/km
- Wh ride: 272Wh
- Wh Biker: 61.0% (166Wh)
- Wh Battery: 39.0% (106Wh)

------------------
Full statistics:

Firmware: 4.22.3
User Settings:
"Advanced user": 20/50/100 CM 80

Assistance average: 20.0%
- ECO: 20.0%

Ride Time:
- Start time: Sun, 22 Mar 2020 12:28:31 WET
- Stop time: Sun, 22 Mar 2020 14:07:31 WET
- Elapsed time:1:29:23
- ECO: 1:28:49 (99.4%)
- TURBO: 0:00:32 (0.6%)

Battery:
- Start: 99% (429 Wh)
- End: 75% (323 Wh)
- Consumed: 24% (106 Wh)
- ECO: 24.0% (106 Wh)
- TURBO: 0.0% (0 Wh)

Consumption average: 3.72 Wh/km
- ECO: 3.73 Wh/km
- TURBO: 0.00 Wh/km

Battery Temperature:
- Min: 16°C
- Max: 22°C
- Average: 19°C

Motor Temperature:
- Min: 16°C
- Max: 36°C
- Average: 31°C

KM Total: 28.46 km
- ECO: 28.44 (99.9%)
- TURBO: 0.02 (0.1%)

KM Total with assistance: 22.69/28.46 km (79.7 %)
- ECO: 22.69/28.44 km (79.8%)
- TURBO: 0.00/0.02 km (0.0%)

Speed average: 19.1 km/h
- ECO: 19.2 km/h
- TURBO: 2.0 km/h

Speed Max: 49.5 km/h
- ECO: 49.5 km/h (13:08:58 - km 11.11)
- TURBO: 2.1 km/h (12:28:47 - km 0.01)

Cadence average: 65 rpm
- ECO: 65 rpm

Cadence Max: 95 rpm
- ECO: 95 rpm (12:46:41 - km 3.67)

Heart rate average: 123 bpm
- ECO: 123 bpm
- TURBO: 102 bpm

Heart rate Max: 142 bpm
- ECO: 142 bpm (13:07:23 - km 10.37)
- TURBO: 102 bpm

Kcal consumed: 652 Kcal
- ECO: 652 Kcal

Biker power Max: 519 W
- ECO: 519 W (13:11:11 - km 11.66)

Total Wh Biker: 166 Wh
- ECO: 166 Wh (100.0 %)
- TURBO: 0 Wh (0.0 %)

Motor power Max: 111 W
- ECO: 111 W (13:38:14 - km 20.21)

Total Wh motor: 104 Wh
- ECO: 104 Wh (100.0 %)
- TURBO: 0 Wh (0.0 %)

Max Altitude: 68 m
Min Altitude: 2 m

Ascent total: +535 m
- ECO: 535 m (100.0 %)
- TURBO: 0 m (0.0 %)

Descent total: -527 m
- ECO: 527 m (100.0 %)
- TURBO: 0 m (0.0 %)

 

[AZUR]

Hi,

On the screens below, taken from a Garmin 1000 edge, you can see the human power and cadence, sent from TurboLevo to Garmin. The data refer to an activity carried out on 15 March.

 

[AZUR]

Hi,

On the screens below, taken from a Garmin 1000 edge, you can see the human power and cadence, sent from TurboLevo to Garmin. The data refer to an activity carried out on 15 March.

Normalized Power (NP) is the power without power=0 (not pedaling)
NP = 116W, for the Power =65W not taking in account the periods without pedaling.

 

[Danielwj]

Has anyone yet tried to flash on of the
New 2020 versions of Tsdz2. I’m a little worried about ordering without knowing if it will work.

 

[casainho]

Hi,

On the screens below, taken from a Garmin 1000 edge, you can see the human power and cadence, sent from TurboLevo to Garmin. The data refer to an activity carried out on 15 March.

Thanks for sharing. I think the only metric missing on our firmware is the consumption in Wh/km, which I plan to implement soon with the Field Weakening feature.

I see you use the Garmin 1000 edge and that costs around 550€. I never looked at this type of devices and for what I see from Garmin, I guess it has a big degree of customization of data fields and custom apps (although I guess is totally locked to install other apps that does not follow the Garmin SDK). I know there commercial bikes that share data over ANT+ and that data can be seen on that Garmin edge devices as also on Garmin watches, and, bike can even be controlled on this devices, like changing the assist level.

I would say a big points on Edge are (at least) small size, light, and long battery range. Also the navigation and connection to the external sensors by ANT+.

If the Garmin Edge costs +500€, I wounder if a good investment would be to make a DIY display in 150€ parts costs, for ebikes that can supply power to the display from the battery. Would be a Raspberry PI + display + GPS + USB ANT+ stick + 3D print enclosure.
For software, the Android would make a very fast development platform and probably use the popular navigation OpenSource Android app OsmAnd -- this would be a BIG project!!!

 

[vshitikov]

Has anyone yet tried to flash on of the
New 2020 versions of Tsdz2. I’m a little worried about ordering without knowing if it will work.

Order one and tell us about what's inside, make pictures! The stock firmware is not that bad and you can still ride your bike even you may not have all the bells and whistles of the OSF.

 

[skestans]

Is v0.8.0 safe to use?

On the release page it comes with this rather worrisome warning:

> WARNING: due to any possible existing bug on the firmware or user incorrect configuration, the motor controller may burn and/or the motor and bicycle wheel may start to run very fast at max power - please be very careful when installing the firmware and keep the bicycle back wheel on the air, have brake sensors installed and the possibility with easy access to quick cut the battery power like removing the battery connector to the TSDZ2.

I have seen reports on this forum of users burning their controller with one of the more recent versions. So, is anything above 0.6.5 safe to use if you absolutely cannot afford to destroy your motor or not?

Is the warning regarding burning the controller and the max speed only for just after installing or it can happen any time?

 

[casainho]

I went to the street to test the development firmware for the field weakening and it is amazing!!

First, I can go easily to cadence 120RPM. I think I just noted this now because the motor now assist up to that 120 RPM!!
I tested on a road with small inclination hill and having the high cadence is much more natural to pedal faster at high cadence without changing to a high gear - why? because when start pedaling faster like at around 90 RPM, the power assist reduces a lot on TSDZ2 so you immediately feel the need to change to a low gear to have back again the power assist of TSDZ2, which is not very pleasant, like if you are limited inside a box... now with field weakening, you feel free to pedal on a higher range of cadence, you can just keep pedaling and the motor will keep assist you!!!

Here some numbers I recorded with pedaling at the road with small inclination hill:

- 48V motor on a 52V battery (almost fully charged, measured 56V)
- field weakening feature disabled: pedal cadence 110RPM, motor assisting only 70w
- field weakening feature enabled: pedal cadence 117RPM, motor assisting 500W!!

So, as you can see, the motor was pulling from battery 7x more power but for the measures I did, it is less efficient when field weakening get's automatically activated at high cadence, by 25% less eficient. So, only 400W, which means that with field weakening I got 570% more motor assist at near the limit of 120RPM cadence!!

Have you bicycles ready because I will release in some hours a new firmware version!!

 

[Danielwj]

Has anyone yet tried to flash on of the
New 2020 versions of Tsdz2. I’m a little worried about ordering without knowing if it will work.

Order one and tell us about what's inside, make pictures! The stock firmware is not that bad and you can still ride your bike even you may not have all the bells and whistles of the OSF.

Its a great plan, but I was planing to do a 36v motor on the 48v battery, that's not possible with the stock firmware

 

[vshitikov]

Has anyone yet tried to flash on of the
New 2020 versions of Tsdz2. I’m a little worried about ordering without knowing if it will work.

Order one and tell us about what's inside, make pictures! The stock firmware is not that bad and you can still ride your bike even you may not have all the bells and whistles of the OSF.

Its a great plan, but I was planing to do a 36v motor on the 48v battery, that's not possible with the stock firmware

you can always order the controller separately, chances are it will fit inside the new motor, and then we will know about new motor internal structure. it will be a great help for the community

 

[Waynemarlow]

I went to the street to test the development firmware for the field weakening and it is amazing!!

So, as you can see, the motor was pulling from battery 7x more power but for the measures I did, it is less efficient when field weakening get's automatically activated at high cadence, by 25% less eficient. So, only 400W, which means that with field weakening I got 570% more motor assist at near the limit of 120RPM cadence!!

Have you bicycles ready because I will release in some hours a new firmware version!!

That sounds really good Casainho, if we are losing 25% efficiency that's a huge penalty re ride time for our existing batteries ( battery size may need to be bigger ) + wheres that loss of efficiency going, heat ? Sounds as though we maybe into the situation of running 48 volt engines rather than the 36 volts we have all been running on 52 volt to get the higher cadence and having to run bigger battery packs to cover the same distance + the extra weight all because we want the benefit of a higher cadence.

OK I would run with it but I run a 360WH 14S2P pack which just is spot on for the 35km 650m climb run I do, but 25% losses, that's going to really mess with that combination

Look forward to trying it.

 

[casainho]

That sounds really good Casainho, if we are losing 25% efficiency that's a huge penalty re ride time for our existing batteries ( battery size may need to be bigger ) + wheres that loss of efficiency going, heat ? Sounds as though we maybe into the situation of running 48 volt engines rather than the 36 volts we have all been running on 52 volt to get the higher cadence and having to run bigger battery packs to cover the same distance + the extra weight all because we want the benefit of a higher cadence.

OK I would run with it but I run a 360WH 14S2P pack which just is spot on for the 35km 650m climb run I do, but 25% losses, that's going to really mess with that combination

Look forward to trying it.

That is why will be possible to disable field weakening. Also I will implement the battery power usage per km, Wh/km, so you as a user will be able the evaluate what works better for you. And I wish to document this information, how the motor works, etc, so users can take more informed decisions.