Vector bike and frame owners.

[madin88]

dont want fight with you about this but do you really think the battery is main reason the whole bike got on fire suddenly after 5 month riding the bike? not the chance that some wires came loose and melted themself together? and did you build a battery before and it catch fire maybe or why you have this opinion? dont get me wrong i really asking nice here.

I'm not saying the construction of the battery was the reason for the fire. As the user has done some modifications or work on the bike by itself, nobody can tell what happened.
The fact of the matter is, that ground solid, or suited for 150-200A looks DIFFERENT

It´s the customers fault. By changing anything on the bike which he was not supposed to do, he has lost his warranty. That´s it. Every bicycle store will tell me the same, if I change anything on my Bosch Pedelec. Even when I change the handlebars without them telling me to do so, while it is really unusual that I should do this by myself as they change it most of the times by their local mechanics, I would loose my warranty too. This should be ridden on the contract of Vector or Vector´s webside to avoid trouble with a lawyer which will defnitly happen one day. We can feel lucky that it didn´t burned a house or worse hurted someone. For this Artur I would recommend you to write this into your contracts. Only what stands in the contract or any sort like this counts in such case. You better manage this today then tomorrow as I would bet my Vector Built that one day you will need to show a judge something like this.

it is not that easy in this case because the owner had a problem with the controller before.
otherwise i would fully agree with you that "warranty voided"

 

[steam25]

can you show us a different, better battery? maybe we can all learn something here. and to prevent fires. maybe some photos of your battery pack.

 

[Artur]

Artur, do you have photos of your disassembled battery to see inner wire connections of it?

can you see it?

Do you really need this rubber thing on the cells positive side? Does this protect the cell from getting scratched by the nickel or what? :|
I ask this because I haven´t built this on my 3 x "4s, 15p" packs..

Watch this https://youtu.be/N-PIlUEYM9o

 

[steam25]

i also use these plastic holders. but i mean what if we dont have that much space inside frame and must build packs with smaller size?

 

[miunchy]

Question to Artur: AWG of main wires? And do you cover the top and bottom of the battery by something soft or only by glass textolite/plastic?

 

[DasDouble]

I think with spacers you have a "loss" of 12-20% space for more battery's. But in my opinion it's enough space in a vector frame. I have now with spacers 300 cells fit in my frame.
That's theoretical 3.78kWh. In reality maybe 3.58kWh or so. I think (+calculate) it will be 3.7kWh. Should be enough for 70-87km of off-road riding. ))

 

[DasDouble]

How do you mount the BMS on the frame? With hot glue maybe?^^

 

[Joachim]

You will never know why and how a pack catch on fire...

 

[miunchy]

You will never know why and how a pack catch on fire...

Yes you are right, but we can help Artur to produce better upgraded components, in future it will be very useful to him.

 

[Artur]

You will never know why and how a pack catch on fire...

The thing is that battery was working with adaptto bms, and fire started during riding, not charging. He said he was riding 30kmh, so no high current at that moment. Plus think about 6+ month usage of the battery with 50+ charging. Do you think it is a battery problem, not a battery fixation or some bad plug connections?

How do you mount the BMS on the frame? With hot glue maybe?^^

We fix it with zip ties to the top of the frame from inside, so no direct contact with battery.

Question to Artur: AWG of main wires? And do you cover the top and bottom of the battery by something soft or only by glass textolite/plastic?

Main wires 8AWG. We use some material between cells and textolite to protect cells.

 

[miunchy]

Question to Artur: AWG of main wires? And do you cover the top and bottom of the battery by something soft or only by glass textolite/plastic?
Main wires 8AWG. We use some material between cells and textolite to protect cells.

8AWG it is almoust 9 mm2? I think it is enough for such distances. What kind of soft material do you use to separate upper cover?

 

[Joachim]

@hard off road riding the gleu can brake of some cells and there is no protection between the series.....if the cells can shake/com loose,early are later there wil be a short in the pack.
2 serie strips of nickel is not much for a 100A and i think best first weld the serie ont the cells and then the parallel?

 

[steam25]

but why i build packs with small space like this for many years and never had any fail?
i still belive its more likely the wiring

 

[Artur]

Mine is 2 years old and is just a single glued block of 200cells.. I ride in mountains as agressive as only it can be , not mentioning 15+ times bike crashes.. no problem so far.

 

[steam25]

exactly. i crashed my bike several times. if you glue packs, reinforce with this glasfiber stuff and put 2 layers of shrinktube around there is absolute no chance the cells vibrate loose.
plus i use extra thick shrink foil.

 

[madin88]

can you show us a different, better battery? maybe we can all learn something here. and to prevent fires. maybe some photos of your battery pack.

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=84412&p=1247425#p1247424

[youtube]jwE-YoY2crU[/youtube]

it looks like there is 0,13V difference under load at 85A compared to no load.

what does that tell you?

 

[steam25]

very nice build! and now do 100+ of these battery packs in under a week. i stick to it. many years of experience telling me this is nice but overkill.
arturs battery packs are very well done and i am sure he also had his learning curve on that like we all do.

to video:
it tells me that there is a slight difference in voltage. very normal under load and have still nothing to do with the fact that bike burned down to ashes.

i think its possible the battery had a failure and that could be the reason the whole thing catched fire. but the chance that this really happen is so small compare to the other options. much more likely is, it rattle around and some wires or plugs came loose or touch each other. we will never know. and the customer refuse to send the rest parts back.

the main question was wether artur did the right thing to offer him half price for a brand new bike he can assemble himself.
my final optinion: yes he did the right thing. customer worked on the bike himself and refuse to give any evidence that its vectors fault after so many month of fun with his bike.
danke madin für deine meinungen hier.
and thanks to everybody else to for opinions.

 

[Allex]

Do not understimate Madins knowledge on battery design and layout. If he tells us that something is wrong then one should probably sit down and rethink on how the battery is built and perhaps make some improvements.
When you have a V difference under load during charge and discharge then you know that some cells get more current and some less. This leads to a disbalanced pack, which results in a unnecessary BMS work wich leads us to excessive cell wear.
Like I always say we have a lot "know it all" guys in here that builds batteries but only 5% actually do it the right way, these goes to all of the factories as well.
Then we have a lot of other stuff to think about, like nickel strip connection. On the photos you barely see the welding spots. So do they have a good contact? If they dont, this can give you a burning hot strip that sets the stuff on fire.

 

[steam25]

the nickel is very thick. so it looks like bad weldings. thats not the standard stuff we see on normal battery packs. it can do alot amps for minutes for sure before even get warm. got the same stuff here and tested it. many spotwelder cant handle it.

 

[Artur]

can you show us a different, better battery? maybe we can all learn something here. and to prevent fires. maybe some photos of your battery pack.

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=84412&p=1247425#p1247424

[youtube]jwE-YoY2crU[/youtube]

it looks like there is 0,13V difference under load at 85A compared to no load.

what does that tell you?

appreciate your feedback. I will make a new video with drop test, to see if it will effect propperly installed battery. and longer duration high current test. stay tunned.

 

[Joachim]

out of 1000 battery packs you can have one go in fire are smoke......how and why????you wil never know.

some small ,just for sure things, changes in the pack builds isnt a bad idea.

Why use pf cells???15p you think the pack can handle 150A :lol: they are more like 6A max discharge cell in real live...okey they are cheap today 1,90 for a cell :lol:

 

[madin88]

very nice build! and now do 100+ of these battery packs in under a week. i stick to it. many years of experience telling me this is nice but overkill.
arturs battery packs are very well done and i am sure he also had his learning curve on that like we all do.

saying very well done is like putting lipstick on a pig
don't get me wrong, but many years of experience and such comments don't figure.

Yes it takes more time to build such batteries (mostly for the shell and additional insualtion), but IMO you should include this effort if you want to have optimal usage of space
Call it overkill, but keep in mind the battery is for EBIKE USAGE, and not for static applications.
Because of that, i would rather say that those details should be at least the minimum extra effort for safety against vibrations and pressure, with reference if no plastic holders are used.

Your battery would not become much bigger in size if you would use plastic holders, but it would improve safety A LOT!!
But i got it, if you build 100+ of those, it would take sooo much longer that you stick to it, so you don't use them..

I build my batteries in view of an owner and not in view of a company. That may be the difference between us.
and btw: you are cutting many pieces of nickel while i cut only one for the same function

to video:
it tells me that there is a slight difference in voltage. very normal under load and have still nothing to do with the fact that bike burned down to ashes.

attempted whitewash, or not many years of true experience

 

[ziltoid81]

It´s the customers fault. By changing anything on the bike which he was not supposed to do, he has lost his warranty. That´s it. Every bicycle store will tell me the same, if I change anything on my Bosch Pedelec.

Correct me if im wrong but the customer purchased a "ready to ride" bike.
How do you know he changed something he shouldnt?
He had a failure and repaired the bike WITH permission of the manufacturer/seller/vendor.

If there is a problem, the vendor have to repair the bike.(at least in the first 6 months, after 6 months the customer needs to prove that the problem was existent since the purchase)
He did not and let the customer do it.........

For me its not really that clear.

IF the customer changed something else on the bike its a clear case......its his own responsibility.

Its an unfortunate situation, vector should cover any repairs by themselves.
Let the customer tinker on a "turnkey ready" bike is a bad advice.......you never know what the customer does wrong.

If my car have a problem after the purchase and inside the warranty i dont repair it by myself.......i guess nobody does.

I dont get this clearly either.
Was the controller mounted outside or inside?
Did he need to dissasemble the whole bike?

Interesting case but i wont say its the customers fault or vectors fault at this point.

Dont let the customer do warranty repairs.......its to complex for some customers.

 

[Artur]

It´s the customers fault. By changing anything on the bike which he was not supposed to do, he has lost his warranty. That´s it. Every bicycle store will tell me the same, if I change anything on my Bosch Pedelec.

Correct me if im wrong but the customer purchased a "ready to ride" bike.
How do you know he changed something he shouldnt?
He had a failure and repaired the bike WITH permission of the manufacturer/seller/vendor.

If there is a problem, the vendor have to repair the bike.(at least in the first 6 months, after 6 months the customer needs to prove that the problem was existent since the purchase)
He did not and let the customer do it.........

For me its not really that clear.

IF the customer changed something else on the bike its a clear case......its his own responsibility.

Its an unfortunate situation, vector should cover any repairs by themselves.
Let the customer tinker on a "turnkey ready" bike is a bad advice.......you never know what the customer does wrong.

If my car have a problem after the purchase and inside the warranty i dont repair it by myself.......i guess nobody does.

I dont get this clearly either.
Was the controller mounted outside or inside?
Did he need to dissasemble the whole bike?

Interesting case but i wont say its the customers fault or vectors fault at this point.

Dont let the customer do warranty repairs.......its to complex for some customers.

The thing is this client forgot to pump up the tyres before he goes for a ride (before the accident with controller), and bened the rim. And then still was riding bike with bended rim! It was end of the warranty already before controller issue. .

 

[ziltoid81]

It was end of the warranty already before controller issue. .

So we have a clear case......this changes everything.
Your offer for 50% is more than enough.

I cant blame the vendor if i damage an item which is out of the warranty.

Its a tough market, i guess many people abuse these bikes too much.
Either its just not knowing better or its just "the vendor have to replace the broken bike, so i dont care."