Wayne’s Dengfu Carbon Fibre FS 27.5” with Bafang M600 (throttle also)

[Animalector]

I shouldn't laugh but that's actually pretty funny. They make moulds, tools, carbon parts, but can't solder the red wire on properly...

The plus side is (because there's always a plus side)... You can now fix it properly and do the other wires while you're at it. And you will know that it is all done properly once and for all.

Good luck. Hope you're back out riding soon

 

[waynebergman]

View attachment 2View attachment 1
Good news. Rewired and resoldered the xt connector to the 5 terminal assembly. Made up a 5.5 mm female barrel connector to step up to a xt60 connector and gave the pack a 10 second wake up call with the charger through the discharge port. Thank you Jason, your the man.
Next I was very happy to see the charger kick in and charge the pack when reconnected to the charging port. The green light came on as normal when the charge was done. It only charged to 53.6v on my meter but I am happy its alive. Maybe next time it will take its full charge to 54.6v.
NO shorts now in the positive leed as I have relplaced the nose picking with actual solder.
Bench (coffee table) test shows handle bar display giving normal display and a nice bright screen back. Throttle gives power to the motor so nothing damaged their.
Now the two hour job of putting it all back together and waiting for Dungfu/Bafang to send out the replacement 5 pin assembly that has been repaired. I would feel better putting a new replacement in its place one day if it ever arrives.
So glad things appear to be back on track however not sure why the pack only went up to 53.6 volts and then green light on charger.

 

[Animalector]

nice work getting it ready to ride again! enjoy. I'm keen for some 3rd person vids

Andy

 

[Surfingjeff]

Wayne

Sorry this response is out of sequence but I just found out from a friend about Lightbicycle.com they are the OEM to Specialized . They are out of China but are set up to ship rims inexpensively to the US or Canada $50. The rims vary I would suggest a all mountain 35,38,40 widths . The 38mm width is only $186 each. That way you can change out your issue . My riding buddy loves his wheels .

 

[Surfingjeff]

I forgot to mention they are carbon rims .

 

[Vividguy]

Hi guys..

Would like some info.. If someone can assist..
I need to know the woltage output for the five pins on the battary of the bafang battery..
And to be exact.. The middle 3 pins are the mistory to me..

Thanks in advance,

 

[waynebergman]

HI Vividguy,one of the three pins are for suppling power to the throttle and I am not sure what else the other two are for.I think the M600 battery supplies around 4 or 5 volts to the throttle directly from the battery not the controller like other systems. When I was trouble shooting my battery issues described in this thread above I think I remember 5 volts from one of the pins and nothing from the other two. Just curious.....why are you wondering about the voltage coming off of each of the three pins?

 

[Animalector]

The other two are comms. I think canbus but I need to check my correspondence.

Andy

 

[Vividguy]

Hi
Im asking about the woltage on the five pins.. Is cause im building the battery from scratch.
I dont have any info from bafang or dengfu.. So my best chance is from you guys.
Any additional info would be appreciated.

 

[wheeliepete]

Great to see this motor in a nice frame, hope to see more in the future. Here in the UK our first commercial offering is this beauty can't wait!! Gotta add i'm not liking the words Bafang, comms and canbus in the same sentence, Wayne where do those 2 small wires on your battery pack connect to?

http://www.halfordscompany.com/news/cycling-news/cybic-bike-range-is-a-world-first-at-halfords/

 

[waynebergman]

HI Wheelypete, not sure which two little wires you are talking about. Can you be more specific please?

Vividguy if you are wanting a thottle to work on a home made pack I will say good luck. I would never tackle such a project when Bafang is talking about can bus with battery to throttle ( is still dont even really know what this whole canbus means as far as being applicable to anything we need to accomplish with these drives, I think its all a big waste of time myself, the HD1000 throttle works better and programable so, so far I dont see the reason for any of it).

Dengfu will give you no meaning help what so ever , Bafang will i thing be the same. I dont really understand enough of the electric issues to help you at all. If you build your own pack and are ok with no throttle see how I hooked up my luna pack but that is with no throttle. It worked just fine just going straight from xt60 right into the motor, shown earlier in this thread but no throttle. Like I say vividguy, wow good luck.

 

[wheeliepete]

Sorry Wayne, the 3 thin wires red,black and blue between the main battery connections shown in your photo. I'm trying to understand how the throttle is powered from the battery without going through the controller. Do these wires run to the motor?

 

[waynebergman]

HI Wheeliepete. The thin red, blue and black wires are all part of this can bus stuff. not sure if this picture helps but all pain in the ass fancy cabling running throught the frame so (I am told) the throttle can comunicate with the rest of the system getting the throttle low voltage directly from these little wires rather than from the controller. Big mystery and makes things confusing for the do it your selfer as far as I am conserned. I am loving the bike but the throttle response and the way bafang has it set up could be better... For example if you are on power level one you have very low throttle power even it you hit it full on unlike the HD1000 that you can have a low power assist level but full throttle that can override the lower pedal assist anytime you hit the throttle. Not so on this unit. YOu need to have the pedal assist up high for full throttle to give full power which is not ideal in tight single track because this is also coupled with a bit of a lag in the power input and a bit jumpy at power level 5. If we get so we can reprogam these units will be the trick but things seem to be slow as not many people have this drive out there working with a throttle right now. I think I may be the only person running throttle on this drive but not sure. Hope this helps Wheeliepete.

 

[wheeliepete]

Thanks Wayne, yes does seem Bafang have changed things a bit on this motor, shame, but in time we may see some work arounds hopefully. Some programming software would be good. The throtle connection could be to comply with EU regs if they are looking at that market with the M500 and made the 600 the same setup, makes sense I guess. Anyway, enjoy your bike, looks great.

 

[Bigwheel]

I had high hopes for the M600 and worked with another frame designer in China to get the geo the way I wanted it but now that that is settled I am not going forward with production. I really require a throttle and to me it should be an integral feature on any eBike. Not so that one can just ride around with it pinned but for starting off and for the odd tight situation and in the event you need to push the bike uphill. It's just too handy a feature to not have aboard. All the naysayers don't know what they are missing.

Also for an mtb torque sensing is the only way to go based on my experience with the TSDZ2 which is less than perfect but does work well until it doesn't.

I have a contact within Bafang that hasn't been any help at all in answering my questions about how they are going to support the M600 going forward. The whole CanBus thing is so that it can be app controlled like Bosch, Brose etc. to be able to adjust the parameters but if you aren't getting that function on your bike with the stock battery I don't know what to say. I was able to get my battery guy hooked up with Bafang to get the info necessary to create a BMS that had the correct protocols but it was going to be more money than I wanted to spend upfront to get that made and just got a sample 2170 battery instead without it. So knowing that the throttle doesn't work without the protocol is a real deal killer for me.

I do appreciate your being forthcoming about your trials and tribulations Wayne and wish that it was all working better for you.

 

[wheeliepete]

Yeah, I'm with you on that Bigwheel, was hoping this drive was going to be a refined, torque sensing version of the past Bafang offerings. I'm sure it's still a nice unit, but like you, like a throttle. Maybe time will throw up a solution. Out of interest, do you have any restriction on throttle function in the US?

 

[waynebergman]

HI Bigwheel and Wheelepete.....to try and summarize my thougths on this drive and bike and if I am satisfied at this point...
1. The bike handles well, and in my opinion has a worthy frame design with decent components (good enough for me)
2. I could not replace this with anything else store bought (with all my check boxes being ticked off)for anything close in cost so I feel its good value.
3. If I had my choice to get a full refund I would NOT do so at this point as I feel the drive has promise and the kinks will get sorted out in time.
HOWEVER...
4. I am very frustrated with the whole buy from China experience, mostly because of language issues and its also frustrating because the drives are not main stream yet so no bike shops or USA distributors are handling these drives. We need a middle man for if (when)you have troubles or require meaningful information on the product. Buying a bike from someone that makes the frames in China is kind of a middle man but also kind of worse because the frame maker most likely won't know anyting about the drive system
5. I would not reccomend others to buy this unit at this time in case they have to go through the frustrations I faced documented in this thread and then some , but I would not give up on the this drive system. It seems to very very nicely designed and built compared to the HD1000, it just needs some tweeking and customer support. Who knows - the customer support could be soon or maybe years, lets hope sooner than later. I feel the only way I would recommend this product to others at this time wanting to buy is if we get USA support with in country service unless you want to take the chance on dealing with the China frustration. The issue is, there just is not anything at this time to choose from if you want a quiet, lighter weight,midrive with throttle and decent ground clearance for a decent price. At this point I still think Bafang will be the only hope for having a drive with programing options and for decent ground clearance and a quiet mid drive so I am happy that I have the bike but its a shame that BAfang has not given the North Americian market service and support.

So long story short, dont buy YET but I think this drive will catch on and be awesome.

 

[Bigwheel]

Thanks for the breakdown Wayne it was very concise and informative. In fact if you don't mind I am going to copy and paste it to my contact in Bafang to see if it gets any response. He is in charge of international sales and not an engineer but hopefully he will get the idea that without some system refinements there won't be many sales....worth a try I suppose.

I agree about the communication issue with overseas manufacturers. Not sure about DengFu but these outfits are more often than not just doing the design and marketing of frames made by a manufacturer. I know the one I am dealing with has turned out to be that but in a way it works as they were willing to listen to my geometry requirements and came up with both FS and HT frame designs that are on par with what is considered modern trail bike geometry which is the category I am most interested in as compared to purely XC or DH. I don't think that you would get that type of service from the actual manufacturer unless you were committing to a lot of units up front. But with email and What'sAp at least there is a way to eventually get your point across.

Also as you say don't expect them to know anything about the motor system other than how to attach the mounting plate to the frame. They are frame specific entities and don't have any interest other than selling frames with components sourced from others.

And WheeliePete, As you may know here in the US the industry wags via People for Bikes which is basically their industry lobby, primarily led by Accell, are doing all they can to implement a Class system state by state that is focused on the use of PAS primarily for the Class 1, up to 750w/20mph and Class 3 28mph with no throttle allowed. However there was enough industry support, primarily from Pedego that traditionally have had throttles, that got a Class 2 rider in that they have the same 750w/20mph and same access to bike paths etc. as Class 1. However for reasons I can't really fathom most see throttles as a threat to eBike access still regardless. In fact I saw a pic of a trail sign that said Class 1 ebikes only. It's like they think that a throttle will magically make the bike more powerful and chew the heads off of babies. It's pretty silly actually because that certainly isn't the case as anyone that has ever had one on a bike knows.

But there is nothing in the Federal that excludes throttles so at least there is some recognition and legal acceptance. But the folks that are against them are just drinking the EU regs Kool Aid I feel because the EU brands would be eating significant crow at this point if they put throttles on their bikes for US distribution. My bikes all have throttles and only my mtb with the Tongshen has PAS. My two 1000w, actually legal here in Oregon but only to 20mph, drop bar bikes that I ride just about anywhere I want have throttle only and I use the cruise control feature of my CA3 all the time and pedal in whatever gear I deem appropriate 95% of the time. I do admit to burping it once in awhile while not actually pedaling to keep momentum in some situations, but that is one of the reasons I don't want a bike without one and more than happy to be considered a second class citizen.

 

[waynebergman]

Update on the faulty replacement component I have been expecting. View attachment 2
I am not even sure if this was sent from Dengfu or Bafang but they sent the wrong assembly. They know I have a throttle but sent me the part shown in the first photo. The second photo shows what I thought they were going to send and the bottom photo shows the problem with the original faulty component. I post this just so others can see the type of non sense you may be faced with dealing with dengfu and or Bafang if you dont have a third party in the USA to look after you.

It took over a month to recieve this little component and its not going to work at all for my bike that runs throttle. I realize I can strip the throttle cableing off of the old part and resolder onto the new one just sent to me but I am not in the mood. As the bike is working OK with my repair job from over a month ago I am not really desperate for the replacement part but just want it on hand as the original was faulty. If that original part was not repaired by myself I would be dead in the water for over a month and then they send the wrong part, so update is again - buyer beware. Love the bike but these guys are total clowns to deal with.

 

[Animalector]

The battery that they are using in the Dengfu bike is not a "Bafang" battery, they are using a battery from another manufacturer.

The battery and mounts that come from bafang look like this:



I agree it's tough getting the point across, it takes time...

Andy

 

[waynebergman]

Thanks for this Andy. You may be correct but who knows for sure. Dengfu stated it was going to be sourced from Bafang but now that I see the BAfang badge on your pack maybe you are on to something. It appears you also have a throttle on your bike based on battery can bus appearance. Can you tell us how your throttle is working and your drive system? I am assuming you are running a M600 drive?.......thanks wayne

 

[Animalector]

well I don't actually have a bike yet. it's still a work in Progress. Soon...

When I went to China I visited Enwe Cycles, who were joint venture in producing this model with Dengfu, Alex had a 3d Printed model of your bike built up on display which I could check out (but not ride). It looked great, and the first decent effort i have seen out of china for the Bafang M600 Drive, but yes the battery was not Bafang, he did say the manufacturer name but I cannot recall.

For my bike, M500, M600, I am not too passionate either way, I've ridden a lot of Factory eMTB (Merida, Trek, Specialised, Thok, Sunn, Lapierre) and I had a Bafang 350W torque mid drive (their previous model motor) and for me with the type of MTB Enduro riding I do on MTB trails here in Australia, 250 - 500W is perfect for me. I'm not interested in a throttle, take it or leave it, but I will have the option. I prefer to keep the weight down, so 450Wh pack, but there is a 600Wh pack available from Bafang.

So yeah, it's a long process, but trying to get everything right, ducks all lined up etc.

Andy

 

[Bigwheel]

Here are the models that Risen, info@risenmotors.com, has ready to build. I worked with them to refine the geo to as close to modern standards as they were willing to go. I think if they get out there they will prove to be pretty good handling bikes and additional refinements could be made with feedback.

View attachment 3

View attachment 2

View attachment 1

Aluminum as drawn but they also do Carbon Fiber. Just doesn't make sense to me to go with CF until the geo is right due to high cost of a single mould.

I wasn't interested in the integrated battery as it is 18650, and designed around the actual Bafang one, so I had them design the non integrated ones based on the 21700 HL style I also worked on getting developed over there by a different company although a standard 18650 HL would fit just fine also.



As I indicated and still stand by I will wait for Bafang to show more support for the M600 and as with Animalector I am fine with lower watts but for here in the US might as well be as close to 750w as possible. A good TS and a throttle are must haves though.

 

[waynebergman]

Thanks for posting that Bigwheel.Looks like you are leaning towards the Samsung 14s pack, do you know for a fact we are OK to run a 14 s pack. Has bafang given you the thumbs up for running higher voltage than the 54.6v that the bafang packs give? Keep us all in the loop please on any info that you get on these M600 drives. I have been told by Banfang not to run 14 s but no real details on where the week link would be if I did so. Also if you go with a third party 14s pack I dont see any easy way to have the canbus stuff happening from battery to throttle. You will have a peppy bike but no throttle unless some how the can bus stuff gets dealt with at the battery pack level. Power to throttle comes straight from the battery not the controller....wayne

 

[Bigwheel]

"do you know for a fact we are OK to run a 14 s pack"

No, not at all and that is part of the info I can't get any answer from Bafang on. I suppose 13s wouldn't be bad but.....

"I don't see any easy way to have the canbus stuff happening from battery to throttle"

Relatively easy as I hooked up my battery supplier with Bafang and after signing a non disclosure agreement they sent them the CanBus protocols. However the battery supplier, and rightly so, wanted to charge $1500 to build a BMS that utilized the protocols. I just didn't feel like footing that as I was still unsure about the M600 as well as the reliability of the supplier and their ability to build a sufficient battery with the 21700 cells and HL style case. I have a sample here now and other than a few little easily solvable issues it seems like a go. But I would like to think that Bafang themselves will get on the 21700 bandwagon here soon but not holding my breath and a $2k battery and is not within my budget.....

So due to the factor of not being able to get comfortable with the M600's ability to use 14s as well and another project I have going that is closer to reality I am tabling the whole project for awhile. I will just keep using my TSDZ2 with the new battery in the meantime. After I put new spindle bearings on it first....