Anderson PowerPole question

Provided you don't have any problems, such as a poorly crimped contact, or contact backed out of the housing, you should be fine with 45 a powerpoles.

But you will have some difficulty with them, if you wish to use bigger wire than 12g. A double set is an option though, allowing 90 amps.

Ran 45 a pp's and 12 guage wire on my race bike sucessfully. Sure, I must have lost some pep, but the wires didn't melt. That was 26s, 40 amps.
 
If you stand on your head and recite a poem backward while crimping then spin in a circle prior to connecting, then you might be ok. Personally, I hate them. Just use another, more reliable connector. Too much potential for problems with Andersons. Go with the 75A at a minimum. The EC5, or xt150 connectors are also good. Even 4mm bullets are way better than 45a andersons.
 
I have never had a major problem with 45A andersons on the power lines going into my controller, although if you plug and unplug everyday (as opposed to using a switch etc..), then they will quickly pit and form a bad connection (from the arcing). But I have completely dispensed with them on the phase wires, and only ever use bullets now (6mm). I have had many 45A andersons fail on the phase wires, and I have had them fail on a series connection before as well. Basically over time they deform from the heat (the plastic housing), so the connection gets worse, and that just amplifies the problem further.

The 75Amp bad boys are awesome, but they are mandingo sized, I mean seriously they are about the size of two matchboxes taped together, they are comically large. But I have used them on bikes I haven't put mains powers switches on, because you can connect and disconnect everyday and the substantial nature of the plates means that pitting is just not an issue.
 
I gave up on andersons a long tome ago and went with Dean clones but I didn't like the bare male prongs when unpluged. Now I use HK XT60 and because I am so damn cheap, these:

http://www.dealextreme.com/p/6mm-gold-bullet-connector-with-heat-shrink-tubing-for-rc-battery-10-pairs-41134?item=2
 
Ya, I use those too. The only downfall (which is also a benefit) is that they can be difficult to unplug.
 
nicobie said:
I gave up on andersons a long tome ago and went with Dean clones but I didn't like the bare male prongs when unpluged. Now I use HK XT60 and because I am so damn cheap, these:

http://www.dealextreme.com/p/6mm-gold-bullet-connector-with-heat-shrink-tubing-for-rc-battery-10-pairs-41134?item=2

I bought these too and have 20 sets. How are you soldering them... with a torch or soldering iron?
 
just wondering, I heard on ES before that you actually simply want to crimp well, and not crimp +solder. all my relatively short life I've been crimping then adding the slightly amount of solder to the joint.

So...not being entirely sure how it works, and generally avoiding crimp-things, anyone here know the definitive answer?
 
If you look up the Anderson documentation on PowerPoles you will find that the 45 amp PowerPoles will suffer a considerable heat rise at 40 amps. If your drawing 40 amps for a short time and the connector is in excellent condition and properly terminated, no problem. If you draw 40 amps for awhile (like climbing a long grade), they will get quite warm. Depending on the airflow, and the condition of the contacts they might get quite hot. If they get hot enough the housings can get soft, and the contacts move and don't have full contact, the resistance goes up, and things generally go bad in a hurry in a chain reaction.

Many folks have good luck with these connectors, while some have had no end of trouble. It depends on how well they are terminated, whether they are counterfeit, and the heat load they are operated under.

I have had good luck with 45 amp PowerPoles, but I try to keep the average current below 30 amps in them. Short term 45 is okay, but long term is likely to be problematic.

If you are set to use them I would go ahead for now, keep an eye on them and change later if necessary.

In terms of terminating them, a proper crimper designed for these connectors is the best way to go, if you don't have the proper tool then use a good solder job. Properly crimped wires don't need soldering.

Enjoy your new setup and be safe! Don't forget the main battery fuse!!
 
Alan B said:
In terms of terminating them, a proper crimper designed for these connectors is the best way to go, if you don't have the proper tool then use a good solder job. Properly crimped wires don't need soldering.

Properly crimped wires can loosen, corrode, or both. Crimped and soldered wires can't do either of these things.

On the other hand, crimped and soldered wires can be broken by flex, strain and vibration more easily than those that are only crimped. It hasn't happened to me yet, but it is possible.

I consider a crimper made especially for Powerpoles to be a good purchase if you use them for more than a very few connections.

Chalo
 
Chalo said:
Alan B said:
In terms of terminating them, a proper crimper designed for these connectors is the best way to go, if you don't have the proper tool then use a good solder job. Properly crimped wires don't need soldering.

Properly crimped wires can loosen, corrode, or both. Crimped and soldered wires can't do either of these things.

On the other hand, crimped and soldered wires can be broken by flex, strain and vibration more easily than those that are only crimped. It hasn't happened to me yet, but it is possible.

I consider a crimper made especially for Powerpoles to be a good purchase if you use them for more than a very few connections.

Chalo

I agree with everything you said with the exception of proper crimps loosening or corroding. If that occurs the crimp or the components were probably bad. Unfortunately not all connectors, wire or crimp tools are made correctly and of the right materials.

The West Coast rep for Anderson, the manufacturer of the PowerPole connectors told me that they do not advise soldering and that it reduces reliability in a vibration environment.

But many folks do both crimp and solder. Often the crimping is not quite professional quality so the soldering likely helps it.

I quit soldering mine when I got a quality crimper. I have not had one fail yet. But I don't run them at the edge of their performance spec either.
 
I bought powerpoles and they were expensive and horrible. I ended up throwing them in the garbage. Never again!
The bullet connectors are 6x cheaper and they work.
 
They are fussy, I don't dispute that. I never had any problems with em my natural fussiness didn't fix.
 
I have used the 45A APP connectors with and without the HD contacts with some success... and at other times using every colorful metaphor in the Sailor’s Cussin’ Compendium. I have this to say:

  • They can accept up to 8-AWG wire with some effort, however it is a PitA. Better is 10-AWG, and no issues with 12-AWG.
  • If the connection is static, meaning that it is well secured and does not move, it should be fine.
  • If there is any play or flex of the wiring whatsoever – it is bound to fail. Once arcing starts and charring gets a foothold, ultimately the components will have to be replaced.
  • The 75A APP connectors are 3X larger; far too bulky for my needs and I ended up not using them.

I run dual 12FET-controllers, each pulling about 24A Batt; separately it’s not as much as the OP, although at WOT at the bottom of a hill the ebike will experience occasional sags because the connectors struggle to handle the load. I am presently in the process of replacing the main battery harness which is a combination of 10 & 8 gauge zip wire using 45A APP connectors for branching. The replacement will employ a unified 6-AWG main bus using EC5 (5mm) barrel connectors for branching to controllers and large battery arrays (such as the trailer). Some of the APP connections will remain where the current was lower, where the connections are essentially static and trouble-free, etc: The phase wire connections are in pretty good shape because they're tied down - and they are scoped to handle up to 60A peak. Eventually I expect to phase all APP out for barrel connections.

EDIT - "they are scoped to handle up to 60A peak": I rarely run the controllers that hard; typically they are at 85% which equates to 51A Peak @ WOT.

Recently I ordered a dozen EC5 pairs from HK on July 9, and they were received last Saturday on July 21; not too terrible bad for regular post. The inside of the barrel connector measures 5.01mm which is plenty good for 8-AWG and even as low as 5-AWG (if that wire size could be found). The 5.5mm & 6mm connectors can accept 4-AWG.

The current rating for EC5 (5mm) connectors and larger are said to be above 100A, although I do not have information on the voltage rating. However - looking at the specs for AWG, a 3mm connector should accept 12 & 10 AWG, and a 4mm connector should accept 10 & 8 AWG. Lots of options to toy with.

Not sure what connector to use with 2-AWG; couldn’t find info on an EC7 or 8. :twisted:

Regardless, I am looking forward to improving my riding experience.
Char-free, KF
 
Above 12 guage, bullets for sure, or big PP's. Even 10g in 45 amp housings is not only a pain, but won't allow the movement required for proper contact with andersons.
 
Chalo said:
Alan B said:
In terms of terminating them, a proper crimper designed for these connectors is the best way to go, if you don't have the proper tool then use a good solder job. Properly crimped wires don't need soldering.

Properly crimped wires can loosen, corrode, or both. Crimped and soldered wires can't do either of these things.

On the other hand, crimped and soldered wires can be broken by flex, strain and vibration more easily than those that are only crimped. It hasn't happened to me yet, but it is possible.

I consider a crimper made especially for Powerpoles to be a good purchase if you use them for more than a very few connections.

Chalo


No. More like "improperly" crimper wires can loosen...

A proper crimp will actually create microscopic "cold welds" due to plastic deformation of the metal. And proper crimps are stronger than solder mechanically:

93367274.jpg
 
cal3thousand said:
Chalo said:
Alan B said:
In terms of terminating them, a proper crimper designed for these connectors is the best way to go, if you don't have the proper tool then use a good solder job. Properly crimped wires don't need soldering.

Properly crimped wires can loosen, corrode, or both. Crimped and soldered wires can't do either of these things.

No. More like "improperly" crimper wires can loosen...

A proper crimp will actually create microscopic "cold welds" due to plastic deformation of the metal.

"Cold welds"? I think you mean "points of contact". I have never had any problem prying open and teasing apart the strands of anybody's crimped connection when I wanted to. Ain't nothing welded about it. It is somewhat compacted, but permeable, and therefore corrosive liquids can get in there and corrode it.

Anyone who has dealt with factory electric crimps from a car knows that even quality inspected industrial stuff can loosen and corrode under adverse conditions.

Chalo
 
Proper crimping at least makes gastight connections. So corrosion should not occur.

Soldering adds a layer of much lower conductivity metal to the joint and ruins the flexibility of stranded cable. It is not mechanically very strong either. Especially the lead free type.

I expect there is a range of crimps. Some are better than others.

The hydraulic crimper may make micro welds. It is pretty much compressed into one piece of metal and doesn't want to come apart. My small hydraulic crimper is claims that it applies 12 tons of force. Standard crimpers don't quite get to the same level.
 
Chalo said:
Properly crimped wires can loosen, corrode, or both. Crimped and soldered wires can't do either of these things.
Chalo said:
"Cold welds"? I think you mean "points of contact". I have never had any problem prying open and teasing apart the strands of anybody's crimped connection when I wanted to. Ain't nothing welded about it. It is somewhat compacted, but permeable, and therefore corrosive liquids can get in there and corrode it.

Anyone who has dealt with factory electric crimps from a car knows that even quality inspected industrial stuff can loosen and corrode under adverse conditions.

Gen 1 prius main battery lugs
VoltageHookUp.jpg

Gen 2 prius main battery lugs (ultrasonically welded??)
2875274339_7a8c7a21b8_z.jpg

Insight
s15.jpg


If you were to try to "disassemble" any of these professionally made (or any other properly crimped) connection you would find it very tough going.

Nobody uses solder in these kinds of connections. Solder wicks into the strands of the wire, creating a point at which the wire will fatigue over time. This is guaranteed failure!

Also solder is a crappy conductor itself, causing additional resistance in a soldered connection

The failure mode of a soldered bullet connector will likely be the solder melting followed by disaster. In an anderson connector the plastic housing will soften causing the springs that push on the contacts to spread apart. Followed by disaster...

I have never had any problem with anderson connectors of any size. When applied correctly they are great. I prefer them and use them for everything. There are plenty of crimp/solder and anderson/bullet discussion (argument) threads around. Check around, there is good info in them sometimes. (Like real facts, not uninformed speculations)

For the OP's question- I have been running tests on some batteries which involve 40a for about 6 minutes through about 1.5ft of 10ga wire, a set of anderson powerpoles and a pair of 4mm bullet connectors. None of these components are suitable for 40a continuously, they heat up too much. The bullet connectors heat more than the powerpoles. The key is to understand duty cycle. Peak power is practically irrelevant. All these parts will be fine with the duty cycle you will see on a 40a max controller. I have run 450a through anderson SB50 connectors and 6ga wire... the duty cycle was so short on that vehicle (go kart) in that type of testing (small parking lot) that I didn't observe any heating at all. Go hit a long steep hill, causing a dramatically longer duty cycle and the connectors and wire will be melting.
 
acuteaero said:
Chalo said:
Properly crimped wires can loosen, corrode, or both. Crimped and soldered wires can't do either of these things.

"Cold welds"? I think you mean "points of contact". I have never had any problem prying open and teasing apart the strands of anybody's crimped connection when I wanted to. Ain't nothing welded about it. It is somewhat compacted, but permeable, and therefore corrosive liquids can get in there and corrode it.

Anyone who has dealt with factory electric crimps from a car knows that even quality inspected industrial stuff can loosen and corrode under adverse conditions.

If you were to try to "disassemble" any of these [Toyota Prius power cables] professionally made (or any other properly crimped) connection you would find it very tough going.

I've had no trouble using small hand tools to open or remove up to 10ga crimped connections made by anybody, which is what I and others here are discussing. If I wanted to open up 00 gauge crimps, I reckon I'd be using different tools and possibly different techniques. I'm a metalworker by trade and training, and I see this as the metal forming issue it is, rather than subscribing to magical thinking (e.g. cold welding with hand crimpers) espoused by amateur electricians.

Nobody uses solder in these kinds of connections. Solder wicks into the strands of the wire, creating a point at which the wire will fatigue over time.

Yes, solder can present a stress riser, which is why it should be accompanied by some measures to immobilize the wire. You seem to ignore the stress riser created by smashing wires flat and rigid at the end of a crimp fitting. Wires do fail there too, if they are allowed to flop around freely.

This is guaranteed failure!

No. it's not. I've done lots of e-bikes, portable lighting, portable audio, and automotive wiring with crimps sealed by solder, and not even one single joint has failed yet, as far as I know. Car audio guys seem to swear by splice-plus-solder rather than crimps (though I do not assume they know what they are doing). Carefully and attentively done, this looks like a matter of taste and relative cost, not really technical merit.

Also solder is a crappy conductor itself, causing additional resistance in a soldered connection

Air is a worse conductor. In a crimped and solder sealed connection, it is air, not copper, that is displaced by solder.

The failure mode of a soldered bullet connector will likely be the solder melting followed by disaster. In an anderson connector the plastic housing will soften causing the springs that push on the contacts to spread apart. Followed by disaster...

Fortunately I have not ever reached that point, even with solder joints I've done with pure indium (melting point only 300F). That's my favorite solder for attaching high current leads to semiconductor devices like FETs and diodes. But it is expensive.

Chalo
 
I have been putting 30amp PP on everything this year, I ended up buying the $45 crimping tool, which works really nicely. I hate soldering and saw an instructional video stating that crimping with the tool was better than soldering. I do wish the PPs would lock a bit tighter, but if I have proper slack on my wires, it's not an issue.
 
I've had no trouble using small hand tools to open or remove up to 10ga crimped connections made by anybody, which is what I and others here are discussing. If I wanted to open up 00 gauge crimps, I reckon I'd be using different tools and possibly different techniques. I'm a metalworker by trade and training, and I see this as the metal forming issue it is, rather than subscribing to magical thinking (e.g. cold welding with hand crimpers) espoused by amateur electricians.

Indeed the connectors I posted photos of are in a different class than the "amateur electrician" produced connections we're usually working with.

I decided to do a little testing this morning to see what would happen.

I crimped a powerpole 45 amp contact onto each end of a 6" piece of high strand-count 10ga copper wire using my Tri-crimp, and I lightly crimped and soldered a powerpole 45A contact onto another identical piece of wire.

It's worth noting that immediately the soldered wires didn't fit into the connector housing. The light crimp I applied didn't shape the pin in such a way that it would go into the housing.

I put each pin into a vise and jerked up and down on the wire until the wire was completely severed. It took 59 complete cycles to break the soldered wire, and at least 50% of the strands were broken in the first few cycles- the longest lasting strands were in the center which had not become saturated with solder. The crimped connection took 194 complete cycles to break and degraded in more of a linear fashion.

I opened the crimped contact and all the strands fell out, there was no "cold welding" happening in this connection. Interestingly when I opened the soldered connection on a belt sander the strands all flew apart, they were tinned but did not behave as a solid block. The soldered wire broke about 3-4mm off the end of the pin, where the the stranded wire broke right at the butt of the pin. This puts the stress riser point on the soldered wire outside the PP housing, and subject to mechanical movement, where with a crimped pin it is inside the connector and protected.

The powerpole is obviously designed to be crimped, and soldering it is a recipe for failure. If anyone has had issues with powerpoles and has not been applying them with a properly designed crimper (eg Tri crimp) then it is not the fault of the connector for any failure. If a powerpole contact is crimped properly and installed right it works really well as a complete system.

Yes, solder can present a stress riser, which is why it should be accompanied by some measures to immobilize the wire. You seem to ignore the stress riser created by smashing wires flat and rigid at the end of a crimp fitting. Wires do fail there too, if they are allowed to flop around freely.

Who actually does make adequate measures to immobilize the soldered wire coming out of an RC bullet connector? How do you suppose that is best accomplished? Super thick heavy heat-shrink? Kind of blows the compact size argument for the bullet connector.

I've done lots of e-bikes, portable lighting, portable audio, and automotive wiring with crimps sealed by solder, and not even one single joint has failed yet, as far as I know. Car audio guys seem to swear by splice-plus-solder rather than crimps (though I do not assume they know what they are doing). Carefully and attentively done, this looks like a matter of taste and relative cost, not really technical merit.

I've done tons of soldered joints in all sorts of situations and indeed I have had little trouble with them. I don't think they're generally better than a good crimp. If I have the proper connector and crimper I will pick a crimp most of the time. Crimps are also much faster- it took less than 10 seconds for each crimped powerpole, it takes something like a minute to really flow solder through a powerpole pin or bullet connector with 10ga wire.

Air is a worse conductor. In a crimped and solder sealed connection, it is air, not copper, that is displaced by solder.
If you use a good connector and good crimper there is virtually no air in the connection. It may not be "cold welded solid"- but it's not loose inside. I tried to flow solder into a powerpole pin I had crimped with the tri-crimp- the solder did not flow into the joint at all it just puddled on top.

So basically either way is probably fine in usage. The crimp has the advantage in time and ease of installation, and of being more mechanical stress tolerant. I'll see if I can come up with a beaker full of something nasty and corrosive to dip these remaining test pieces in later on today to see how they fare.
 
I agree that a crimper is much faster and easier to work with and has been 100% dependable for my many hundreds of Anderson Powerpole connectors. I did solder when I first got my APPs but found that tedious and not 100% reliable because of excess solder that needed to be trimmed or filed off before it would fit in the housing.
 
After crimping, I put a small dot of solder right at the tip of the wires and up the seam of the fold – just enough to seal the deal. One final nail to prevent the wire from becoming distended from the contact. I just finished doing up 12-AWG phase wires upgrade on the RH; couldn’t be prettier. Well – ok, it could… :wink:

APP_Phase_12AWG_USB-MiniB_HE.jpg

I use the USB Mini-B for the HE signal connector; this assembly allows me to remove the mounting hardware from the axle.

I haven't found a suitable barrel connector that allows me to replace APP contacts for Phase connections. However most of the time these connections are problem-free because they are well-secured.

Good enough and certainly better than what I had (which was stock wiring).
Motor on, KF
 
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