Brushless motor controller with reverse

powercartmen90 · Jul 13, 2023

amberwolf said:
Good luck with your project.

Oh dam Wolf my bad I don't know how I misses that link idea way back in the post thank you I'm using it in my keyword search now. Also one member just posted down below a link .. kit idea that looks great may may not work, but my concern is I want to input this model into the grin simulator, but my hold up is, if that model isn't in the simulator, is there a way or how to do it, to find a way to input a similar design to this one to get accurate feedback from the program? Is it just like, forget about the brand and other details, just pick anything that's baseline the same, 36v 200 watt on a 36v battery just like the real model, and I should get accurate feedback?

powercartmen90 · Jul 13, 2023

fechter said:
With enough power, a direct drive hub motor might go up the hill, but it will overheat very quickly and likely burn out.

Another idea:
Search you local Craigslist for a used "mobility scooter". These are similar to wheel chairs but you can probably find one that's very inexpensive.

Great idea will do for the search keywords. Again so you're saying even the hub motors like the one tommycat just posted , even though it's not gearless, it says it's a gear motor, but even this one/ type will overheat? Says it's for moving cargo, supermarket goods..

Asuma Sensei · Jul 13, 2023

Luck would have it, I am doing a similar build to what you’re trying to achieve. I just finished installing the second hub with controller and throttle today. However, I’m looking to do more than you are with my cart. I’m using a heavily modified rubbermaid cart that weighs a ton and I’m looking to put a seat on it and ride it around as well.

Here is my build
2 Wheels

Wheel Hub Motor 8in Wheel Hub Motor Drum Brake 36V48V 500W To 1200W 640409373963 | eBay

Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for Wheel Hub Motor 8in Wheel Hub Motor Drum Brake 36V48V 500W To 1200W at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!

www.ebay.com

2 Controllers

36V 48V Universal Brushless Controller Thumb Throttle fo Scooter E-bike ATV Quad | eBay

Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for 36V 48V Universal Brushless Controller Thumb Throttle fo Scooter E-bike ATV Quad at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!

www.ebay.com

4 battery adapters (2/wheel)

5*Battery Adapter Mount Connector 14AWG Power Wheels Adapter for Makita 14.4~18V | eBay

【Perfect Fit 】Designed for Makita 14.4v 18v battery. Compatible for Makita batteries:BL1430. " M&B18V "Adapter for Makita and Bosch 18V Li-ion Battery. current 55.6A. Unleashing your creativity to upgrade your power wheels, robots, RC toys, e-bike, etc.

www.ebay.com

Battery gauges (ETA Saturday)
2 Pieces DC 12V 24V 36V 48V 72V Battery Meter with Alarm, Front Setting and Switch Key, Battery Capacity Voltage Indicator Battery Gauge Monitors -Acid and Lithium ion Battery Indicator (Blue) https://a.co/d/hHMH3CT
Mechanical Brakes (ETA Saturday)
Lomodo 4 Pieces Bicycle Brake Accessories Including 2 Pack Aluminium Alloy Brake Levers Handle Bars and 2 Pack Brake Wire (Front and Rear Brake Cable) for Mountain/Road/MTB Bike(Black) https://a.co/d/hLLMxWS
Toggle Switch Panel 3 Gang... https://www.amazon.com/dp/B09P3FZCYL?ref=ppx_pop_mob_ap_share
Car-ling 7Pin Rocker Switch DPDT... https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0BRCQY2TK?ref=ppx_pop_mob_ap_share
Forward Reverse Rocker Switch For... https://www.amazon.com/dp/B073V64N5W?ref=ppx_pop_mob_ap_share

It’s moving a medium sized rubbermaid cart that has knack cart armor on it and is lined with 3/4 plywood with shelving inside. It worked but struggled with only 1 hub installed but with 2 it’s got plenty of power. I haven’t wired up the speed selector or tried to figure out how to put in the reverse switch yet. That’s actually how I found your post lol

Here’s a video of the test from today

stancecoke · Jul 13, 2023

I've built a firmware version for a wheelchair puller with reverse function basing on a Lishui FOC controller:

Can you run this BLDC motor backwards?

I am interested in using the hub motors from the Segway Ninebot G30 scooter to make this cart pictured below. Motor link...

endless-sphere.com

It uses this Wuxing bidirectional throttle for accelerating/braking in both directions:

Wuxing Newest Half Twist Throttle,2 Way Functions,Rotating Up Is Braking,Rotating Down Is Speed Up,Factory Sells Directly - Buy Electric Bike Throttle,Hand Throttle,Electric Scooter Throttle Product on Alibaba.com

Wuxing Newest Half Twist Throttle,2 Way Functions,Rotating Up Is Braking,Rotating Down Is Speed Up,Factory Sells Directly - Buy Electric Bike Throttle,Hand Throttle,Electric Scooter Throttle Product on Alibaba.com

www.alibaba.com

regards
stancecoke

Asuma Sensei · Jul 14, 2023

stancecoke said:
It uses this Wuxing bidirectional throttle for accelerating/braking in both directions:

Wuxing Newest Half Twist Throttle,2 Way Functions,Rotating Up Is Braking,Rotating Down Is Speed Up,Factory Sells Directly - Buy Electric Bike Throttle,Hand Throttle,Electric Scooter Throttle Product on Alibaba.com

Wuxing Newest Half Twist Throttle,2 Way Functions,Rotating Up Is Braking,Rotating Down Is Speed Up,Factory Sells Directly - Buy Electric Bike Throttle,Hand Throttle,Electric Scooter Throttle Product on Alibaba.com

www.alibaba.com

regards
stancecoke

That’s awesome and thank you. I had it sitting in my ebay cart already but I wasn’t sure it would work. I’d assume I could switch the direction on the hub for the left hand side? After testing yesterday I’m fully aware I’ll want the brake to help steer

stancecoke · Jul 14, 2023

Asuma Sensei said:
I’d assume I could switch the direction on the hub for the left hand side? After testing yesterday I’m fully aware I’ll want the brake to help steer

Torque vectoring

If the controller can be configured to accept a throttle voltage of about 1.8V for zero power, 0,7V for full power backwards and 3,5V for full power forwards, it should work.

regards
stancecoke

powercartmen90 · Jul 14, 2023

Asuma Sensei said:
Luck would have it, I am doing a similar build to what you’re trying to achieve. I just finished installing the second hub with controller and throttle today. However, I’m looking to do more than you are with my cart. I’m using a heavily modified rubbermaid cart that weighs a ton and I’m looking to put a seat on it and ride it around as well.

Here is my build
2 Wheels

Wheel Hub Motor 8in Wheel Hub Motor Drum Brake 36V48V 500W To 1200W 640409373963 | eBay

Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for Wheel Hub Motor 8in Wheel Hub Motor Drum Brake 36V48V 500W To 1200W at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!

www.ebay.com

2 Controllers

36V 48V Universal Brushless Controller Thumb Throttle fo Scooter E-bike ATV Quad | eBay

Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for 36V 48V Universal Brushless Controller Thumb Throttle fo Scooter E-bike ATV Quad at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!

www.ebay.com

4 battery adapters (2/wheel)

5*Battery Adapter Mount Connector 14AWG Power Wheels Adapter for Makita 14.4~18V | eBay

【Perfect Fit 】Designed for Makita 14.4v 18v battery. Compatible for Makita batteries:BL1430. " M&B18V "Adapter for Makita and Bosch 18V Li-ion Battery. current 55.6A. Unleashing your creativity to upgrade your power wheels, robots, RC toys, e-bike, etc.

www.ebay.com

Battery gauges (ETA Saturday)
2 Pieces DC 12V 24V 36V 48V 72V Battery Meter with Alarm, Front Setting and Switch Key, Battery Capacity Voltage Indicator Battery Gauge Monitors -Acid and Lithium ion Battery Indicator (Blue) https://a.co/d/hHMH3CT
Mechanical Brakes (ETA Saturday)
Lomodo 4 Pieces Bicycle Brake Accessories Including 2 Pack Aluminium Alloy Brake Levers Handle Bars and 2 Pack Brake Wire (Front and Rear Brake Cable) for Mountain/Road/MTB Bike(Black) https://a.co/d/hLLMxWS
Toggle Switch Panel 3 Gang... https://www.amazon.com/dp/B09P3FZCYL?ref=ppx_pop_mob_ap_share
Car-ling 7Pin Rocker Switch DPDT... https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0BRCQY2TK?ref=ppx_pop_mob_ap_share
Forward Reverse Rocker Switch For... https://www.amazon.com/dp/B073V64N5W?ref=ppx_pop_mob_ap_share

It’s moving a medium sized rubbermaid cart that has knack cart armor on it and is lined with 3/4 plywood with shelving inside. It worked but struggled with only 1 hub installed but with 2 it’s got plenty of power. I haven’t wired up the speed selector or tried to figure out how to put in the reverse switch yet. That’s actually how I found your post lol

Here’s a video of the test from today

Hey so how did the hub caster / system hold up on slight incline lije 5 to 10 degree any luck with weight on it, did it struggle overheat? 36v or 48v system? Only asking because other members have told me the hub caster gearless direct drive motors can't move weight up slight inclines. Or without overheating. Also are these in fact direct drive hub wheel motors?

Asuma Sensei · Jul 14, 2023

powercartmen90 said:
Hey so how did the hub caster / system hold up on slight incline lije 5 to 10 degree any luck with weight on it, did it struggle overheat? 36v or 48v system? Only asking because other members have told me the hub caster gearless direct drive motors can't move weight up slight inclines. Or without overheating. Also are these in fact direct drive hub wheel motors?

36V, each wheel is running off of two makita cordless drill batteries (4.0). There’s a ton of weight on my cart, she’s loaded with tools. With one it struggled to swivel the front caster, once it got moving it was fine. I also noticed the wheel tended to lift off the ground and spin out due to uneven surfaces.

With two I was able to drive up my driveway (15° incline easy). Would I expect it to do that climb all the time, tbh I wouldn’t want to find out. I’m considering buying a 48V lipo battery to use as a main and have the makita battery system just as a backup in emergency situations. The goal is to be able to do about 20 mph downtown Chicago with this behemoth to dodge all the traffic and expensive parking. They have somewhat recently installed a ton of bike lanes that go unused for the most part.

I’m sure those guys are right for intended form/function. My plan is to try to give it as much power as possible to give it the best chance of longevity. I’m also cautious and would help push it up severe inclines. Good thing I don’t live in Florida with those ridiculous bridges.

Asuma Sensei · Jul 14, 2023

I do have access to an industrial scale and could find out an exact weight. I think I could fit it in tomorrow if the wife permits lol

powercartmen90 · Jul 14, 2023

Asuma Sensei said:
I do have access to an industrial scale and could find out an exact weight. I think I could fit it in tomorrow if the wife permits lol

That all is awesome. I hope that all does great

TommyCat · Jul 17, 2023

This Motor Performance Calculator may help decide if the kit I mentioned above would give you enough push.

Motor Performance Calculator

I learned that the two motors in parallel will double the torque of the single one.

In your application, gearing is your friend. (As long as it's not a geared motor with a clutch like Ebikes use...) If you can keep the motor operating at its upper RPM, at the pace you desire most of the time. It will be operating at its highest efficiency, which means it's lowest waste of power that would be lost to heat. And probably keep the amperage down as well.

powercartmen90 · Jul 19, 2023

TommyCat said:
This Motor Performance Calculator may help decide if the kit I mentioned above would give you enough push.

Motor Performance Calculator

I learned that the two motors in parallel will double the torque of the single one.

In your application, gearing is your friend. (As long as it's not a geared motor with a clutch like Ebikes use...) If you can keep the motor operating at its upper RPM, at the pace you desire most of the time. It will be operating at its highest efficiency, which means it's lowest waste of power that would be lost to heat. And probably keep the amperage down as well.

Awesome thank you just reading this now. Going to check it out tommy

powercartmen90 · Jul 19, 2023

Thanks again for everyone's input I found these sweet hub motors that push lots of weight, but I think more question, before I buy, can someplace explain the volts watts thing.. I looked around and saw other info. But what does it mean. Anyway is a 36v 500watt hub motor stronger better for moving and in general, than 48v 350 watt motor as an example and why? What does it translate to? Is there a way also I can know exact number and weight that can be moved of each level of watts? Or is it all guesstimate

Asuma Sensei · Jul 19, 2023

powercartmen90 said:
Thanks again for everyone's input I found these sweet hub motors that push lots of weight, but I think more question, before I buy, can someplace explain the volts watts thing.. I looked around and saw other info. But what does it mean. Anyway is a 36v 509watt hub motor stronger better for moving and in general, than 48v 350 watt motor ad an example and why? What does it translate to? Is there a way also I can know exact number of what each watt level can do? Or is it all guesstimate

Volts x Amps = Watts

Watts is your total power. I see if I can dig up my reference chart with water/air/electricity terms. It helped me to understand it entirely

powercartmen90 · Jul 19, 2023

Asuma Sensei said:
Volts x Amps = Watts

Watts is your total power. I see if I can dig up my reference chart with water/air/electricity terms. It helped me to understand it entirely

Cool thank you

Asuma Sensei · Jul 20, 2023

powercartmen90 said:
Cool thank you

Asuma Sensei · Jul 23, 2023

Unfortunately the half throttle didn’t do the trick with the Chinese controller I picked up. I was looking into reprogramming but I’m not sure this one can. I’m not opposed to picking up two new controllers or just ditching reverse all together if the price is too high.

When I plug in the batteries nothing happens, even if I twist throttle in the forward direction. As soon as I try the reverse direction, it recognizes the volts are lower and tries to use it as a full throttle. I return the half throttle to its neutral state and the hub keep spinning slowly since that’s 2.4V. I’m not sure if there’s a trick to getting this controller to learn but I did play with the self learning cable a bit without any luck.

I’m not afraid of soldering and I have plenty of DB9 cables from the lock programming I used to do but I’m assuming I’m SOL for reverse on this controller lol

fechter · Jul 23, 2023

Hill climbing ability depends on the motor torque and gearing. Power rating determines how fast it will go up the hill. If the gearing is too tall, the motor will overheat or stall going up a hill. A higher powered motor will not necessarily climb better.

amberwolf · Jul 23, 2023

Asuma Sensei said:
Unfortunately the half throttle didn’t do the trick with the Chinese controller I picked up. I was looking into reprogramming but I’m not sure this one can. I’m not opposed to picking up two new controllers or just ditching reverse all together if the price is too high.

When I plug in the batteries nothing happens, even if I twist throttle in the forward direction. As soon as I try the reverse direction, it recognizes the volts are lower and tries to use it as a full throttle. I return the half throttle to its neutral state and the hub keep spinning slowly since that’s 2.4V. I’m not sure if there’s a trick to getting this controller to learn but I did play with the self learning cable a bit without any luck.

If the controller is not designed to use a single throttle to control motor direction and/or braking, it cannot "learn" how to do this, you would have to create an external device to read the throttle's voltage and then apply signals to the controller that operate teh way the controller is actually designed to accept to do this job.

For instance, an Arduino nano with at least one analog input for the throttle, and at least one analog output to send throttle voltage to controller, and at least one digital to toggle the reverse line of the controller.

Assuming the controller has an input that is grounded to activate reverse, then the Nano will read throttle's output voltage and at the center-off position will output no voltage to the controller's throttle input, and leave the reverse input at 5v. As throttle voltage increases above the center-off voltage, then the nano will increase the voltage to the controller's throttle input proportionally. As throttle voltage decreases below the center-off voltage, then the nano will change the reverse input to 0V, and then increase the voltage to the controller's throttle input inversely proportional to the throttle input voltage.

It could also be done with op-amps and transistors if programming isn't your thing but electronics is.

You could use a controller like VESC-based types that have programmable throttle response and function, as long as it specifies that it *already* supports operating the direction *and* speed/torque of the motor from a single throttle input without using any other inputs.

The "learn" function of a controller is only there to let it determine the phase / hall wiring combination automatically, rather than having to manually swap wires around to get the motor running correctly.

A-DamW · Jul 23, 2023

amberwolf said:
You could use a controller like VESC-based types that have programmable throttle response and function, as long as it specifies that it *already* supports operating the direction *and* speed/torque of the motor from a single throttle input without using any other inputs.

As far as I know(and that may not be very far, I do own and use 5+ vescs), every VESC supports forward/reverse/brake on the same ADC input.
Every VESC I have seen uses the STM32F405/407 mcu with at least one ADC input, after that, it is simply a matter of connecting to the controller with vesc-tool and configuring the throttle input however you want.

Brushless motor controller with reverse

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