Choosing a candidate for AWD conversion.

[slaphappygamer]

I gave some fresh baked bread to my buddy. This was the second loaf my wife and I have given him. He is very appreciative and decided to give me all of his ebike stuff that he no longer needs.

There are 2 motors. One is 1000w ebikling rear hub motor and the other is some other (looks the same) front hub motor. These are both direct drive motors and both 26”. The same tire size as the donor. So that’s nice.

Front motor is 100mm so that will fit perfect. The rear motor is 135mm and that will fit just fine. The rear motor doesn’t have the “rails” on the rim, like the front motor. There are 6 bolts to accept a rotor. So I’ll have to figure that out.

I have some Brainpower controllers. I bought them in a dual motor kit. 2 controllers and an S866 display. The controllers are squarewave and I originally bought them for my CityBug scooter (that I ended up gutting after I sold the battery and got a big boy Apollo Pro).

My mother in law was kind enough to donate her Giant Eddie Bauer MTB. It hasn’t been ridden in over 2 decades and seems in good condition. I’ll look closer though. I know she fell off the bike before. She hit one of those grates in the gutter and immediately went down.

Here is a picture of the bike. It’s got rim brakes and is a 2x 7(?). I’ll have to count the rear cassette again. The frame is some aluminum alloy. Magnets don’t stick to the frame. I just realized the quick release skewer in the rear. I’ll have to take a closer look at this too. Maybe this isn’t a good bike to use.



I don’t plan to do regen and will limit each motor to ~500W. So I may be ok without torque arms. Those torque washers will be in full effect. I can upgrade later, but I’ll start the power low since we have 2 motors. I know dual motors on my Apollo work great for hills. I’m aware that the smaller scooter tires will generate more torque than 26” tires. So this bike probably won’t take off with the same gusto.

I’ll use my existing ebike 48v battery and set each motor controller to 10-12 amps. I’ll run the bike like this at first to get an idea of where to go from there. I haven’t used the motor simulator on this setup yet. I’m layed up in bed today and the next couple of days.

I’m eyeing the batteries at em3ev and this one seems like a winner. Definitely will need torque arms (and statorade) if I go up to 19 amps per motor. At that point, I’ll start selecting a VESC and get regen braking, field weakening, and all. Upgrade to a rigid fork as well…maybe.

If this all goes as planned, I’ll probably hand down my Ride1Up to one of our kids. Of course, I’ll take the CA and BR off of it first and put the KT controller system back so it’s easier for the KTds to operate. They just won’t have the password to change any settings.

I can then use the CA with the VESC.

 

[E-HP]

Here is a picture of the bike. It’s got rim brakes and is a 2x 7(?). I’ll have to count the rear cassette again. The frame is some aluminum alloy. Magnets don’t stick to the frame. I just realized the quick release skewer in the rear. I’ll have to take a closer look at this too. Maybe this isn’t a good bike to use.

I can’t figure out the front fork. It appears to have a threaded steerer tube, but looks like the diameter is greater then 1”. Looking at the fork itself, there are no disc brake bosses, so in that time window where everything was transitioning from rigid to suspension, and rim brakes to discs. I guess my point is that replacing or upgrading the fork could be a challenge, if you ever decide to do so.

 

[neptronix]

1 inch steer tube is where i draw the line... unless the bike is to do 20mph or so. It's a weak interface

No rear disc brake? no problem if you're willing to run regen.. combined with the original rear brake, you'll end up with stronger braking than you would get from a disc.

 

[slaphappygamer]

Thanks for the input. I see what you mean about the steer tube diameter. Of course my searching on headsets led me to an article by Sheldon Brown. That man’s website need to live forever. There is so much information and great detail about bikes there. Clearly one of his passions! Also many software tools are there for many types formulas and conversions. He seemed like quite the character.

I’ll have to verify steer tube diameter. I imagine the 1” steerer tube would be weaker (unsafe above 20mph?) than a 1 1/8” steerer tube.

I’d also go with regen, in the future, since I have the motors for it. I’m digging into using a suspension fork with a regen motor.


Maybe this 27.5” Giant ATX might be a better candidate?



I’d have to do thing where you use a smaller wheel. This one has 27.5” tires. Then maybe I’d only have to get shorter cranks. Instead of hassling with the Eddie Bauer fork.


Wait, maybe I check this one.

 

[amberwolf]

AFAICR, the EVGs were 1" steerers with the old style quill handlebar stem that inserts inside.

All of the bikes I have had with stems that insert into the steerer have been 1". There are larger ones (1.25"), but I haven't had one, AFAICR (unless DayGlo Avenger's was?).

The only ones I have had with larger steerers had stems that clamp to the outside of the steerer.

That said, I've never had a steerer tube failure, even on the 1" ones I used on Crazybike2, which were loaded in ways they weren't intended for.

I *have* had one stem failure, on an adjustable stem on a Columbia 2005 "comfort bike" (the only brand new bike I have ever had), but it broke at the welds of the stem itself, above the quill, not at the steerer, etc. It would ahve happened regardless of the steer tube size or type because it was built wrong; the company sent a new stem (but needed the old one back). Wish I had pictures of it, but that was a couple decades back. This bike eventually became DayGlo Avenger.

 

[slaphappygamer]

That’s reassuring. Thank you.

Love the bright colors!

 

[amberwolf]

That’s reassuring. Thank you.

I've broken plenty of stuff, pushing it beyond it's capabilities...

The frame of DGA eventually broke (crack, not full separation) at the seatstay just about where fender mount crossbar is, but I'd already been working on CrazyBike2, IIRC. But the steerer, stem, fork, etc., never had another problem after the defective-weld stem was replaced.

I do still have trouble with the right shoulder I landed on in the endover caused by that failure, though, even 20 years later. (and I still have and use the old jacket I was wearing at the time, despite the hole ripped in it at the shoulderblade).

Love the bright colors!

At the time it was the best option to increase my visibility both day and night for other road traffic to see me, and it worked well. But it fades quickly in the desert sun, requiring frequent repainting, which is not inexpensive (it has to first be reprimered with white, then repainted with dayglo, or it doesn't do the same job if you just repaint the dayglo over the faded dayglo).

Since then, except for some testing of stuff, I've been riding larger bikes with more cargo space, and much larger surface area lighting, which together do the same job as the dayglo paint, or even better.

The large SB Cruiser trike's big rear wooden box makes it the most visible, and appears large enough that even the worst drivers go around me with some distance, probably afraid they'll hurt their car or truck if they hit it. (which they aren't afraid of with regular bicycles).

I've only been hit by other traffic on a regular bicycle, usually because they pass way too close to me and clip my handlebars, or hit me in the back or the head with their mirrors. On any of my custom built frames, it hasn't happened yet, and is unlikely to, as traffic gives me significant berth, often the whole lane. There are still....rude drivers that pass relatively close, but much further than they would if I were on a regular looking bicycle.

 

[slaphappygamer]

Verified it is a 1 inch steer tube. I also verified that the rear dropouts are open and 10mm wide. The flat on the motor axle is 10mm. Also has a similar 7 speed cassette, so that should fit nicely. I double checked both sidewalls of the rims and they do have the raceway for the rubber brakepads to contact. I don’t plan on going over 20mph on this bike due to only having V brakes. Unless I get a controller that can handle regen, I’ll stick with 20mph. V brakes with regen though, I’d feel better about going 25-30 mph.

 

[hillslayer@]

If you limit each motor to 500 watts then your adding unessasary weight those motors will do a 1000 watts each easily but adding that much weight to that bike and stopping could get scary.

 

[slaphappygamer]

If you limit each motor to 500 watts then your adding unessasary weight those motors will do a 1000 watts each easily but adding that much weight to that bike and stopping could get scary.

I think that's my ultimate goal. 1000w each motor. I'll be using my 13S 4P, with 35Es, pack. 12 battery amps for each motor. Until I can save the money for a nice 14S4P 21700 pack from EM3EV. Then I can look at a VESC and regen. Probably use a CA and definitely the V7 Grin torque arms, and maybe statorade, on the front and rear. For now, I'm using what I already have.

Is the concern for stopping in regards to the 1 inch stem? I imagine there might be a lot of pressure from myself pushing on the handlebars when braking. Or just the V brakes in general?

 

[neptronix]

This bike has a strong enough rear. That's where you need your strongest braking to compensate for a weak frontend.

I'd put a RH212 or Shengyi SX2 on this bike and call it a day. If you are planning to tackle hills then i'd think about a mid drive. personally, the last thing i'd do is put a motor on the front.

 

[slaphappygamer]

This bike has a strong enough rear. That's where you need your strongest braking to compensate for a weak frontend.

I'd put a RH212 or Shengyi SX2 on this bike and call it a day. If you are planning to tackle hills then i'd think about a mid drive. personally, the last thing i'd do is put a motor on the front.

Oh. I read about your low speed crash. That would make me weary as well. My father in law has the exact same bike and I’m looking at a mid drive for that one. Maybe a twoseven. Those DM02 look great.

 

[2old]

I can’t figure out the front fork. It appears to have a threaded steerer tube, but looks like the diameter is greater then 1”. Looking at the fork itself, there are no disc brake bosses, so in that time window where everything was transitioning from rigid to suspension, and rim brakes to discs. I guess my point is that replacing or upgrading the fork could be a challenge, if you ever decide to do so.

It would need to be measured (of course) but there was an interval between 1" and 1 1/8" when there were 1 1/8 threaded steer tubes, and a threadless headset could replace the "threaded" one.

 

[slaphappygamer]

I’m looking at threadless 1” forks. Maybe a bike with a 1-1/8” steerer tube would be better.

 

[slaphappygamer]

I think I’ll use this one. I measured the steerer tube as 1-1/8”. The frame is steel. The fork lowers are not, but a V7 torque arm should do just fine.





I saw another thread where someone used this frame as well.



I think this will be a better candidate.

 

[docw009]

In 1" threaded, the RST Capa suspension fork was the only one I could find in 2016, Back then, it was under 75 dollars. but has doubled in price. The steerer tube is plenty long enough to fit any bike, if you were able to cut the threads. I couldn't cut them. Put on the $50 cutting die and it just stalled when I tried to turn. I guess I should have had a capable bike shop try it,

The steerer tube was so long, I was able to cut off the threaded stock and convert it to a threadless headset. The whole escapade taught me a lot about threaded vs threadless, including how to install bearing cups. The fork is disk brake compatible, but I stayed with v-brakes.

If Chalo were around, he would likely tell us that a suspension fork, especially these 75 buck pogo stick units even if they charge 2x, will bind under the weight of a 1000W motor,

 

[slaphappygamer]

I can actually hear him now.

Silly question, Would a torque arm negate the binding?

I feel like I’d have more (rigid) fork options with the EVG bike.

 

[E-HP]

I can actually hear him now.

Silly question, Would a torque arm negate the binding?

I feel like I’d have more (rigid) fork options with the EVG bike.

Torque arms won’t help since the binding is between the sliders and the stanchions due to the motor pulling forward. Forks don’t usually see those forces, although it can happen similarly under heavy braking, although I think the rake of the fork may lessen the effect in that case.

 

[amberwolf]

FWIW, the binding is only an issue if you are accelerating or decelerating during the bump or dip encounter, enough to pull the fork lowers forward or backward enough to jam the bushings.

If the motor is not pulling or pushing the fork hard enough to bind it's not an issue.

That said, most of the really cheap forks don't do a whole lot of suspending though they are often better than nothing. The RST whatevers on my old DayGlo Avenger helped with that fairly normal-configuration bike, even with a front hubmotor (either the Fusin geared or the 9C DD).


You can lubricate the fork's bushings, etc., to improve their ability to slide even under motor conditions, but these types are not sealed so its' a repeat-maintenance item, more frequent the dirtier or wetter your conditions are.


On CrazyBike2 (heavy LWB cargobike) I used several different cheap forks, the best of which was a Suntour XCV I think. That one had a good design and didn't rock back and forth in it's lowers, and I don't recall any binding regardless of acceleration or braking, regardless of motor used in it. They also did a pretty good job of suspension.

But the less-well-designed ones like the Suntour something-2000 and the various RST and nonames could be felt to rock back and forth under accel or brake, and performed much less well.

 

[slaphappygamer]

I’ve decided to move forward with updating the EVG bike.

For the front motor, I’m referring to this article. I did some filing (to seat the axle properly in the dropouts) and can fit a C washer flat in the cup on both sides now. For now, I’m going to use those cheap torque arms. The ones that come with all of the ebike kits. I’ll use 2, until I can get a V7 torque arm on there. Power will be limited and no regen.

There is also a nice area that both controllers will fit in. It’s in the triangle just above where the battery goes.

For the rear wheel, I’m going to see if I can reuse-use the original torque arm. It doesn’t appear to be attached to the motor in any way. Hmmm, maybe via the axle. If not, then I’ll get a V7 torque arm back there too.

I really hate to see this bike continue to sit in my garage. I’ve tried to sell it. I’ve tired to give it away. The guy told me to ride it off a cliff. No one wants it.

As far as the electronics, I might try to keep the light and horn, as well as its control assembly. I might be able to repurpose the “Eco/Norm” switch for something else down the line. Throttle and brake sensors will be replaced. I’m also keeping the fairing.

The updated version will continue to be throttle only. No PAS. I just realized that the BrainPower controllers, I have, don’t have input for that.

 

[Risky Rob]

It's an interesting frame design, and probably structurally strong. My donor bike has a conventional frame with a single large triangle below the top tube. That space is needed for my 16 pound rectangular LiFePO4 battery. I now have the battery hanging, and partially contained in a triangle bag, but I am planning a custom frame mount, as low as possible.

 

[E-HP]

It's an interesting frame design, and probably structurally strong.

I agree. I've seen these come up on Craigslist a couple of times. Who knew what it had under that bodywork. It's designed as an ebike frame, so it has built in battery space, but not a bunch of factory proprietary crap to deal with when using it for a DIY project. I may snag one if I ever see one listed again. I'd want to add a rack, so I'd need to do something custom.

 

[slaphappygamer]

After reading other threads about converting this EVG bike to a BLDC motor, my decision was solidified. One guy regularly hits 30mph and says it is stable up to 40mph. I don’t plan on going that fast, but that just shows how strong the frame is. Others report 1000w is fine without torque arms, but they weren’t using regen, so I’ll be sure to install one.

 

[Risky Rob]

I have a 1500W rear hub motor, and installed two of those generic torque arms on the rear hub. Custom torque arms would probably be best, but fabricating those is a project for another day.

 

[slaphappygamer]

If you want torque arms, Grin is the best place. You don’t need the fancy new V7 if you aren’t using regen. The V6 would be well worth the investment.

I’ll get the V7 for the rear and 2 V5s for the front fork. My fork has the eyelets, so that’s a great spot to use.





Here is a diagram of the controllers I’ll be using. Note that there is no PAS.




Got to get the wheels in first though.