Dave's 80:1 RC mid drive kit build log

[Altair]

I agree with recumpence, the most powerful & efficient motor will always be the one with the highest RPM, all other characteristics considered the same.
You just have to use an adequate gear ratio to keep the motor in its best efficiency range.

 

[tangentdave]

Of course the motor overheated, duh. I was pulling on average 4000W from the battery (who know what phase amps), had an average speed of 24mph through sand, with lots of stops and accelerations and zero pedaling, absolutely zero until the heat issue. The point is look what you can do with an ebike! The Alfine 8spd held up, the frame held up, everything still works after a race! It's light and flickable, stable at speed, handles like a bicycle, pulls like a minibike, no maintenance.

I rented a house once without a garage and had to keep my motorcycles inside behind the kitchen- never again will I live in a house with warm petroleum products evaporating into the air. These electric minibikes are so much more affordable for the environment, the trails and your wallet.

The 3220 used in the kits is a 4turn Wye. If, on average, the motor is passing 80A through the windings, that's 205W of heat to dissipate. I'm on it.

This is why we race, to push harder than before and find the edge of skills and machine.


-dave

 

[recumpence]

Of course the motor overheated, duh. I was pulling on average 4000W from the battery (who know what phase amps), had an average speed of 24mph through sand, with lots of stops and accelerations and zero pedaling, absolutely zero until the heat issue. The point is look what you can do with an ebike! The Alfine 8spd held up, the frame held up, everything still works after a race! It's light and flickable, stable at speed, handles like a bicycle, pulls like a minibike, no maintenance.

I rented a house once without a garage and had to keep my motorcycles inside behind the kitchen- never again will I live in a house with warm petroleum products evaporating into the air. These electric minibikes are so much more affordable for the environment, the trails and your wallet.

The 3220 used in the kits is a 4turn Wye. If, on average, the motor is passing 80A through the windings, that's 205W of heat to dissipate. I'm on it.


-dave

:wink:

 

[aCeMadMod]

hi all, look we got both pro's talk in same place , i like to know can Use dave' gearboxand will hold up to use in a 6turn 3220 motor in deta ? or will the motor get magic smoke, or esc

what is best to use 40/1 gearbox or 20/1 garbox ?


thank you alot dave for new gear's You rock Dave , when i need the help. he send me few more parts then was needing,


recumpence you the god of Astro Brushless Motor"s and Ecs can you tell was they any difference from bob the old owner of Astro motor 's
vz new owners

i have non ano wye 3220 6 turn from bob i guessing

and what the difference from castlecreations ice 2 esc 160 amp vz new esc castlecreations Phoenix Edge Series i guess you used them all ?

what best to use 48 volt or 60 volts, for deta

thank you both 8)

 

[recumpence]

The new Astro motors are far better than the older versions. The magnets are new, the epoxy is new, and the overall quality is far better.

Heat was an issue with the older motors due to poor quality epoxy. The new motors withstand alot more abuse. Honestly, I have not found a huge difference in the Edge controllers versus the old HV160 other than bigger caps. The bigger caps eliminate the need for additional caps.

Matt

 

[tangentdave]

Use the 3220 with the 20:1 internal. You'll want about 40:1 between the motor and crankset, use a 32t chainring and a 11-36t cassette. The 6 turn delta will be have a slower rpm than the 4 turn wye I've been using (right?). The ESC won't do magic smoke if the motor accelerates. What I mean is don't expect the rc ESC to apply 160A to a stationary motor. Limit the amps to about 100A in the CA and use a gear low enough to keep the motor about half of max rpm and you won't smoke the ESC. Use as high a voltage as you can, don't put more than 58V into the Castle creations ESC (14s fully charged). I've heard that wye windings are easier for the ESC to locate the rotor for starting, haven't tried a delta winding to confirm though.

I haven't used old ASTRO motors, but the 50 or so I've seen are all top quality.

Sent from my BLU LIFE ONE X using Tapatalk

 

[recumpence]

Use the 3220 with the 20:1 internal. You'll want about 40:1 between the motor and crankset, use a 32t chainring and a 11-36t cassette. The 6 turn delta will be have a slower rpm than the 4 turn wye I've been using (right?). The ESC won't do magic smoke if the motor accelerates. What I mean is don't expect the rc ESC to apply 160A to a stationary motor. Limit the amps to about 100A in the CA and use a gear low enough to keep the motor about half of max rpm and you won't smoke the ESC. Use as high a voltage as you can, don't put more than 58V into the Castle creations ESC (14s fully charged). I've heard that wye windings are easier for the ESC to locate the rotor for starting, haven't tried a delta winding to confirm though.

I haven't used old ASTRO motors, but the 50 or so I've seen are all top quality.

Sent from my BLU LIFE ONE X using Tapatalk

Delta is faster. Take the Wye RPM and multiply it by 1.71

Matt

 

[flat tire]

OK, just read this thread and I want to say that this is a really awesome build!!! I was skeptical of the RC ESCs but if it works, it works. Too bad they don't make RC motors with position feedback so you get optimal starts.

 

[tangentdave]

Uh, remembering delta and wye is like remembering like left and right. Have to work thru it every time.

So the 6turn delta will be about the same electrically as the 4turn wye.

Sent from my BLU LIFE ONE X using Tapatalk

 

[recumpence]

Uh, remembering delta and wye is like remembering like left and right. Have to work thru it every time.

So the 6turn delta will be about the same electrically as the 4turn wye.

Sent from my BLU LIFE ONE X using Tapatalk

IIRC 4 turn wye is 169kv. 6 turn delta is 239kv. It is quite a bit faster.

Also, Delta is a bit snappier. The efficiency is a touch lower for a delta versus the same kv in wye. But, the throttle response is snappier.

Matt

 

[tangentdave]

That is a bit faster. See what happens when you state a guess as if it were fact? 240kV is still fine, 48Vx240rev/V=11,520RPM/40= 288 crank RPM. Use the 11-36t cassette so you have a good size rear cog for steep hills. And keep the battery at 12s/48V. At 3220 powers, I like to have first gear (the slowest) max out about 15mph, this provides a very wide range of gear choices with lots of RPM range in each gear. I set my max battery current to 95A- there's nothing it won't climb and I've seen 46mph on that Zerode (an 11-36t cassette will be power limited at 5kW with 40:1 motor->crank).

The starts with the RC controller, in my experience, are surprisingly good. The Castle controllers are far better at getting the bike started than any HobbyKing controller I've tried. Having a favorable overall ratio for the motor is key- if you can turn the pedals and make the bike go forward, then the ESC will get you started. Using the Cycle Analyst to measure and control battery power via the shunt makes the throttle very intuitive and responsive. If you start in too tall a gear, the ESC will either give up quickly (no torque at all and it's obvious) or the bike is going to move. Once you've felt it start a few times, you know what to expect.

On a side note, I'll send an email too, anybody with a Tangent kit should change/verify this setting in the Cycle Analyst:

SETUP THROT OUT-> fast rate=0.12msec/sec
-> fast thrsh= 3.0amps

This will engage the freewheel more gently during a rolling start and help eliminate jerkiness during shifting.
http://www.ebikes.ca/product-info/cycle-analyst-3.html

 

[aCeMadMod]

hi dave you better be right gearbox can hold up 3220 motor in deta in 6 turn , with out blow up. i be the beta tester , dam i hate windows for this

the old gearbox seem to have more steel on the teeth . or dose the oil dry up around that why you cut the slot in mid of the gears, ?

thank you

 

[tangentdave]

You won't blow it up. Extreme temperatures are the only way anybody has damaged bearings yet. It is a good idea to epoxy a temp sensor to the motor windings and limit the fun to 130deg C. The kits use a KYT84/130 sensor from NXP semiconductor. I have the CA settings for this, I'm sure the forum can help with another sensor.

The split face gears are for grease retention and circulation. I'll post videos soon showing how the design moves grease around the gearbox. It's cool, the harmonics create a wave of grease in each channel that moves around the gear faces and replenishes the coating on the output pins. Only use the grease in the syringe, anything else and it will overheat immediately. Vigogrease RE0 is the grease to use, it's super cheap.

Sent from my BLU LIFE ONE X using Tapatalk

 

[m4k3r]

Extreme temperatures are the only way anybody has damaged bearings yet.

I am one of those guys that has blown a couple bearings to smithereens!! But I commute to work (18 miles each way) in Southern California so I run in very similar conditions as to what Dave was racing in (heat, dirt, speed, etc...I commute through a state park then onto a river trail so it's wide open). I have switched out with hybrid ceramic bearings (without the shields) for the cycloid gears, 100+Ah's later and so far so good!

Edit: No temp sensor installed, just started using some temp stickers on the side to keep an eye one.

 

[aCeMadMod]

tangentdave wrote:Extreme temperatures are the only way anybody has damaged bearings yet.



I am one of those guys that has blown a couple bearings

i bit stocked you blow up the bearing, can you list were you got hybrid ceramic bearings?

i was only able to find full ceramic bearings not cheap, i live the same temp in Au and dirt and sand / water not a good mixed,

i got 2 more 3220 motors, to test fan cooled deta and seal can

first thing i do is change motor bearing to ceramic bearings..
thank you

 

[m4k3r]

can you list were you got hybrid ceramic bearings?

PM sent. My theory behind going with the un-shielded version is that the rubber seals might melt in the 2RS. And with ceramic ball bearings (hybrid or full) they don't need as much if any grease/lube to run smoothly. Also thinking the RE0 grease will mesh nicely inside there anyways to help keep things lubed. And they just LOVE high RPM!

 

[rodgah]

Wow Dave I am impressed.....that is definitely the longest ebike beating I have witnessed.

Of course it is easy to criticise riding technique in retrospect, but we all know in the heat of the moment throttle usually equals fast. I bet just smoothing out the corners and carrying more speed would of left you not hitting the temp limit at all. I got offered a zerode a while ago for a cheap price and now I am bummed I didn't pick it up. I always assumed those geared hubs wouldn't take the beating.

It sounds like you are getting chain skips every now and then (which is understandable with how you were riding :lol: ) or is that just coming from something else?

 

[tangentdave]

Thanks. The system seems to be super tough and with temperature protection the first thing to break should be the bicycle. These high power ebikes are so fun on the trail. They handle like a MTB but the short wheelbase and big torque mean a light front end when you want I would have been faster and probably not overheated the motor if I had flowed better on the trail, like you mention. You can ride these bikes like dirt bikes, it's not the fastest or most efficient, but you can.

The clicking is my $12 twist shifter:
http://www.treefortbikes.com/product/333222402480/1508/MicroShift-Compact-Twist.html?tab=4

I just put it on the day I left and hadn't ridden with it yet so I was clumsy and the cheap shifter isn't very precise. At the very start of the race you can see and hear when the IGH slipped out of gear because of the shifter. The chain doesn't skip. Every so often on the trail you can hear the shifter as a defined click when I'm not on the power. The gearing happens to work in our favor on the Zerode. I can use a 32t rear cog and still get a top speed of 45mph- the big cog really reduces stress along the driveline, including the IGH. Derailleurs suck, but they're efficient and cheap. That is hard to beat.


-dave

 

[m4k3r]

I couldn't agree more, that was an awesome run! Wish I could have made it up there. Hopefully it becomes a yearly thing, I'll def make time for it if that's the case. And yes, these things can take a beating! My commute has 1,700ft of climbing and 18 miles (hilly area) I've done in 45 min but usually take about an hour. The summer months easily hit 100+ degrees. I couldn't be happier with mine. Now I'm shopping around for a downhill bike to put this thing on so I can keep my Tracer analog.

Edit: Oh, tried the new throttle settings you posted and it's MUCH better throttle/freewheel engagement. No more jerking it... 8)

 

[briangv99]

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/v...sid=3132f448074e3cca0bd5fe0780758e7f#p1224134

 

[aCeMadMod]

"Tangent Ascent : Welcome To The World Of Impossibly Light Electric Motocross"
https://electricbike-blog.com/2016/09/19/tangent-ascent-welcome-to-the-world-of-impossibly-light-electric-motocross/


Lost?Our server sentries tell us you probably shouldn’t be here. Maybe you’re lost?If you’re sure this is the place you’re trying to go, please contact us and we’ll be happy to help.← Go BackSupportStatusTwitter

 

[jk1]

"Tangent Ascent : Welcome To The World Of Impossibly Light Electric Motocross"
https://electricbike-blog.com/2016/09/1 ... motocross/

That was quite a negative review regarding the noise and real world power achievable by an ASTRO 3220 motor? i.e the 6kw motor can only do closer to 4kw most of the time on a normal ebike battery if you don't use lipo ?

is this true you can only get this peak power with Lipo batteries and only for a few seconds at that?

This does seem to match Elementaries review here : https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=83578

Having built 15 ebikes over 5 years this ebike needed to be special and solve the ground clearance problems experienced with the Bafang Mid-Drives. The Tangent was tried, but that did not work out. When the Cyclone 3000 is installed in the light carbon frame, it may be close to eBike Utopia we all seek

is this most likely due to the Tangent being a High RPM screamer which maybe is ok flat terrain? but cyclone being a quiet low RPM torque monster is more suited to mountain offroad terrain?

 

[tangentdave]

That was quite a negative review regarding the noise and real world power achievable by an ASTRO 3220 motor? i.e the 6kw motor can only do closer to 4kw most of the time on a normal ebike battery if you don't use lipo ?

Elementary had a 3210 and put about 1 mile on it before he decided he didn't like it. Unlike the cyclone kits, I match the motor kV to system voltage then adjust the gear ratio to provide the largest reduction possible for the target pedal cadence. This rides differently than Cyclone or Bafang.

is this true you can only get this peak power with Lipo batteries and only for a few seconds at that?

That's exactly the reason I drive the crankset, to achieve vehicle performance with the lowest power draw possible. You don't want to use 6kW when you could use 3kW. Drawing 100A from a backpack battery needs 25r or 30q cells and 20Ah of volume for max performance. Weak batteries won't cut it.


-dave

 

[izeman]

is this true you can only get this peak power with Lipo batteries and only for a few seconds at that?

no. of course not. if that would be true a 400kW+ TESLA wouldn't move a bit. it depends on the SIZE of the battery pack. the bigger that pack with more high power cells in parallel, the more power you can draw from that pack. if you choose 25r or 30q cells, than you start with the right cells.
but it's true that lico aka rc-lipo is normally more capable than 18650 li-ion cells. so you need fewer batteries to perform better.
in the end it's a matter of taste what pack you decide to take. imho 6kW on a bike, power delivered through a bike chain is too much for daily use anyway. 2-3kW is a sweet point.

 

[briangv99]

Great kit from Dave, despite some concerns that RC controllers aren't made for low speed and high load, the Castle Edge 160 hasn't let out the magic smoke so far after 200ks grinding up 20% plus grades and slogging though mud and rocks. All this with just one gear and gearing that tops out at 65kph.

Bike all up with 12s 16ah Turnigy Graphene weighs in at a reasonably svelte 21kg.