diy tubeless tires for ebike anyone?

[thedarlington]

just got a stem flat after taking the ebike up a very inclined driveway, 0% throttle, i was about to get another thorn resistant tube when i started looking up some tubed to tubeless kits id seen on bikeforums once because, i must have gone thru 20 bike tubes in 2 years after a while i found some guys bypassed the kit with their own goo and a cut tube (with valve) the basic steps are put below, has anyone tried this on their ebike?

1 cut a 20-24" tube put onto a 26", cut it belly side or the side that would face the ground not rim, at the middle all the way around

2 put on tire, prefferrably a stiffer one, with the inner tube flap hanging out on both sides, so tires in rim but the cut tube is sandwiched and flapping in between tire n rim

3 before putting tire on all the way, add your mix of
latex molding maker goo (hobby store),
slime
water
optional antifreeze or ethyl glycol to keep it lubed and without going bad
optional gunk? some sort of medium like glitter (graphenes really what you want) in case theres a flat itll seal it right away the way slime does with cotton
everyone has their favorite so its something you have to explore

4 complete tire seal and inflate quickly to ensure a good seal (air compressor)


also method 2, instead of a tire tube, use 1 a silicon insulating tape (electrical?) or 2 gorilla (not duct?) or 3 strapping tape as a base layer, covered by pipe tape,

to seal rim bottom, then same procedure and add ur goo, i feel like the tube method makes a better seal, maybe than even real tubeless kits

the latex is what seals it, im thinking going with latexite or something like that which is made to seal asphalt - driveway cracks for the even cheaper price, i think some even do just slime so mine cant be too bad, and the point is its supposed to seal and dry eventually but ur mix tries keeping it wet for hopefully a year

so there it is, anyone ever had any experience with that? apparently some guys have reported no issues and reported doing upto past 50 tires this way

 

[amberwolf]

I haven't tried it yet, but there have been several discussions about it lately, and at least two videos of two different DIY methods posted.

 

[dogman dan]

I've gotten the best results out of good tubes that are thick top and bottom, and huge quantities of 4x4 slime. Bottranger tubes are what the LBS is stocking nowdays.

 

[USAEBIKECO]

We tried it. Not a good idea considering the amount of torque. Better to invest in slime or thorn resistant tubes.

 

[Paul_G]

Don't go tubeless unless you have a light bike that won't go over 20 MPH.

I tried it on my Bomber and it was fine till I ripped a rear tire and had a blow out. The tire that normally is super hard to come off lubed up with latex will try to come off and even if it stays on... the wheel will be damaged as it hits the pavement. I was only going 20 at the time and it was all I could do to keep it upright, if going 50 MPH I dont want to think.

The ride was also odd...like the tires would bounce and rebound far more hitting a bump. I guess the tubes deadened that.

Upside was it would wheelie far EZ'er

 

[MadRhino]

[youtube]dPCOS7sB0YI[/youtube]

 

[dogman dan]

That's what my dirt bike really needs, the equivilant of the moon buggy tires. Even with all the slime, riding around where there are thorns 1.5 inches long everywhere I'll still need to stop and add air once in a while when I get 50 or so of them thorns in the tire.

 

[thedarlington]

well i was reading on 'tweels' for a while but 2 issues, 1 the hub wont fit, 2 they still dont exist for bikes and even then they probably wont match up to the pneumatic cushioning and lightness

i am worried about air leaking and quickly deflating, but isnt that what the latex seal is for? everyone seems to like them who uses them on regular bikes, which easily do 20mph, and lets not forget cars also, mine does 26-30mph i may just try it out at low speeds and see how i like it because that would be a serious problem, the only real danger would be hitting a pothole bc i wouldn't plan on running low pressure where they sometimes burp

 

[thedarlington]

for the thorns the thick slime tubes, extra slime and a tireliner have worked nice for me, these last ones went 6 months to a year, but they always break at the stem and my bike isnt that powerful, this last time it was taking it up a steep driveway maybe 30 deg. incline, maybe ill just try the tubeless in a regular bike for now, since they say theyre much lighter, and try figuring out how to lock the tube from sliding inside the rim, a presta could work but then id have to make another hole to stick the extra slime in thru, i also know maxxis did some radials for a while but i doubt they're sold anymore and no clue on reviews and whether they where tubeless or tubed, im hoping on buying some latex mold maker this or next week (or cheaper latexite?) to try this out

 

[amberwolf]

Stem failure is what I usually see, even on my regular bikes before motorization. My theory is that a defect exists in bonding the brass to the rubber, and then air gets between them, then is pushed further in, herniating the rubber. If this happens near the valve stem hole in the rim, the rim itself can slice into that and rupture the stem. If it happens far enough away from the rim to prevent that, then big bumps or potholes may increase air pressure enough just for a moment to keep expanding the hernia until either the hernia ruptures or until it meets the edge of the brass/rubber interface, and air then blows out of that.

I've even had the entire brass stem eject out of the rubber stem.

Better tubes probalby don't have this happen, but I've never had any "really good" tubes.


Harold in CR gave me the idea of using heatshrink over the stem, which ought to prevent the whole herniation in the first place, so even if internal separation begins it should still prevent further separation due to bubble expansion. Only gotcha is it may require enlarging the rim's vavle stem hole a bit.

 

[thedarlington]

pretty elaborate i always thought it was just (for the hub wheel) the rim spinning and suddenly the tire & tube slipping imagine a tire burnout, except the stems still caught, but i have gotten stem failures in normal bikes also so you may be right on this, and it sucks cuz i wanted to upload some video of my bike, just put some real bright led lights on the spokes to make sure im seen by cars, i found some videos of what i was meaning and putting them here

[youtube] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ieF2GxxyPYA&feature=related
[/youtube]
[youtube] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IQX3CciWsSg&feature=related
[/youtube]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ieF2GxxyPYA&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IQX3CciWsSg&feature=related


im checking out this thread for ideas
http://forums.mtbr.com/29er-components/best-tubeless-brew-406115-70.html

 

[atom1025]

As far as the tube/tire slipping from torque and cutting the stem goes. I had to spray the tire rim and tube with hairspray to keep it in place. Works great, easy cleanup and its a mellow stick so its easy to unstick.

 

[chisixer6]

do they still make solid rubber tire? I heard they were tough to put on, and impossible to take off other than cutting them. I think performance was fair, that was over 10 years ago, surely there should be improvements since then.

 

[Eclu Lardbut]

I've been running a Fat Frank on a ghetto tubeless setup for the past 10 months and not had any problems at all. Not exactly huge mileage on it, but I'm happy enough with it. I always carry a spare tube in case I can't fix the flat, but not needed to yet.
My mix was similar to yours - hobby latex, glitter, etc. A messy process but not too bad and it sealed great after a couple of hours. It retains pressure for weeks on end.

 

[amberwolf]

do they still make solid rubber tire? I heard they were tough to put on, and impossible to take off other than cutting them. I think performance was fair, that was over 10 years ago, surely there should be improvements since then.

Been a couple discussions about that lately, if you search for airless or airfree you should find them, give you the info you're after.

 

[LI-ghtcycle]

DIY tubeless ESPECIALLY when using something like a tube between the rim and tire is a very, very bad idea.

Take a look as specifically designed tubeless tire & wheel systems and you will see a much more aggressive "hook" and retainer design to hold the bead onto the rim.

Taking a standard clincher tire rim and introducing some kind of "shim" between it and the tire is only asking for that bead to come off easier, especially at speed, and even if you just had low tire pressure that would be enough to unseat that rim.

Also, the tire designed for a tube isn't really going to hold air like it should, and will not have the side-wall strength it had with a tube inside, so your tire isn't going to handle well in turns, and will tend to roll more than flex making cornering potentially dangerous.

There are kits out there, but none really convert your wheel that is designed for tubes to work very well, the real answer is a wheel and tire designed for tubeless, but these wheels are going to be much stiffer and more difficult to take on and off, so in the end, if you're experiencing a lot of punctures, you're really not doing yourself any favors going tubeless IMO.

I tried to get a good picture of the cross section of a typical clincher rim VS a tubeless, and didn't find any, but I would STRONGLY recommend you to NOT try and make a tube rim work tubeless, you're just asking for trouble, especially at E-Bike speeds.

I just recently wrecked my bike simply because I forgot to check the air pressure, and with the big balloon tires I run (Big Apples & CST Cyclops), the front which happened to have a pin hole leak, and leaked out to about 5 or 10 lbs over-night before a long ride, rolled on me in a hard right corner, completely washing out the front-end, and luckily I wasn't hurt, or the bike to badly damaged (just some scratches).

Just imagine if I had something that would have given that tire and even easier way to come off the bead with a DIY tubeless system! I can only imagine (I regularly go 40MPH down a hill and cruise between 25-30 MPH) and there are a few tubeless set-ups out there, but not even one kit out there was even given an honorable mention in UBI's (United Bicycle Insitute) mechanics courses I have just completed, as they all tend to have various problems.

Mavic, Stans Tubeless and Shimano have some tubeless systems out with with purpose built wheels and tires if you want to go tubeless, but you're getting into a very high priced and specialized niche market, expect to pay a ton more for tires and the wheel sets.

Another thing I would mention, even if you manage to get something to hold pressure, and have no problems with the beads, what happens when you have to work on the wheel and get to the spokes to true the wheel?

IMHO, it's altogether a bad idea, just use better tubes/tires/tire strips or if you're getting regular punctures that would be plugged with slime, it looks like Dogman has had good luck with the automotive stuff.

Personally, the only flats I have ever gotten where huge holes that no slime would have helped with (1/4 soldering iron tip last time .. DOH! :lol: ) and I rarely have any trouble, I roll over glass, and other small debris regularly, using kevlar puncture resistant tires, No Flats flat strips and regular tubes.

This last flat was a faulty tube, it was holding air just fine before winter when I switched to my snow studs, and never thought to check it before reinstalling on my bike now that it's spring, one of the few times I ever forgot to check tire pressure with a gauge, I ended up wrecking lol! :wink:

 

[slimbeau]

bell no-mor flats
get them at wallmart for 20 bucks each
you can stick a knife in them
been running them for 2 years
-made my own studs by screwing metal screws into them
i hunt glass just to hear the crunch

 

[thedarlington]

thanks for all the info, i do know about those dead rubber foam tubes at walmart but ive heard so much bad things even of the $40 ones that i wouldnt touch it, bad turning feel (sloppy) heavy as hell, slow, more friction id rather stick with tubed

thanks for the hairspray comment, this seems like its what i need on mine and ill try this,

im still gonna try the tubeless but on other bikes i have bc i got about 3 more one with very rigid walls that i need to buy new tubes for, ive heard tubeless is much less hassle, lighter, and gives better feedback

finally for Li-ghtcycle , i do agree that at such speeds we have to be careful and also about the adding a 2nd layer between the wheel and rim, thats why people encourage the tape the screws approach, you can always remove the tape later, however everything else is practically in the opposite of what i read in MBF where everyone praises their ghetto tubeless setup, some going as far as saying theyre much nicer than tubeless conversion options, are you sure its not just something they said since after all theyre the guys who ppl trust and will sell this stuff? i have heard the rims do matter and fat tires are not recommended yet we just saw one of our guys running them for 10 months in the most wobbly of sidewalls, and everyone ive read about has been running theirs close to a year without any problems, but you are correct on the speeds, im going to try it first with my regular bikes bc honestly, its a hassle to need so many tubes and deal with so many flats and the thick tubes + strip make it pretty heavy to handle, i may also try my brothers old 700 since its super rigid wheels as well, from there ill be able to tell but if doing just 3 bikes already its cost effective right there, i will see how i like it and if i do i will consider running it on the ebike once more, i shall update this thread with my expeciences with the tubeless on regular bikes in some weeks

 

[MattyCiii]

I'm looking to go tubeless. I'm using a motorcycle rim and motorcycle tubeless tire. Should be a no-brainer I suppose, but the rim, with 36 spoke holes and two (?) valve stem holes, will be a bitch to seal I think. After watching a couple of youtube videos about MTB bike tubeless conversions I'm almost ready to try it.

I hesitate only because of wheel tightening and truing. With moto rims on a bicycle hub, my initial wheel build is a bit light on spoke tension. I figure, I can tighten the spokes up after the first few dozen miles. Much preferred over starting out too tight, and possibly damaging the hub spoke flange.

My concern is, will tightening spokes once the tubeless wheel is all built up break the seal? If so that's 36 holes I'll potentially be placing on the wheel when I tighten/true the wheel.

Thoughts?

 

[thedarlington]

what rim and tire are you using? if ur going for motorcycle setup what about radials? shouldn't break seal then again, how often will you be truing these anyway

 

[MattyCiii]

what rim and tire are you using? if ur going for motorcycle setup what about radials? shouldn't break seal then again, how often will you be truing these anyway

Tires are Continental (Korean brand) "Conti Go", rims are Pro-Wheel front rims (21"). Part of the build thread is here: http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=37207&start=60#p589891

In the end I used MTB tubeless stuff to ensure my 38 holes don't leak. I used a stem and rim tape from Stan's Tubeless, plus the Stan's latex fluid. I had the local motorcycle shop mount the tire to the rim, which was apparently far easier than the rear wheel.

The rear wheel uses the same rim and tire, but I used a tube. Using a tube was a big mistake, as it made it very hard to mount the tire. So if I ever need to replace the rear wheel or tube, I'm going to convert the rear to tubeless, just like the front.

 

[thedarlington]

wow pretty expensive rim, id go with a used motorcycle one the next time since slim spoked are usually cheaper than alum rims, how do those wheels feel vs your old bike wheels? what do you think about radials since you didn't go with those? they seem to be same price and are supposed to be way tougher than a typical tire

saw this http://www.motorcycletire.com/merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=WPS87-4040&Category_Code=shinko-motorcycle-tires&Store_Code=tires

 

[MattyCiii]

wow pretty expensive rim, id go with a used motorcycle one the next time since slim spoked are usually cheaper than alum rims, how do those wheels feel vs your old bike wheels? what do you think about radials since you didn't go with those? they seem to be same price and are supposed to be way tougher than a typical tire

saw this http://www.motorcycletire.com/merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=WPS87-4040&Category_Code=shinko-motorcycle-tires&Store_Code=tires

Planning has not been my strong point on this build. I basically got awestruck by the strong looks of the A-Line frame, and at the time there were a lot of A-Line builds, so I started with that (build thread linked in my sig). Then just built outwards from there. Originally I was going to use 406mm BMX rims and moped tires, but "discovered" (code speak for "if I only planned a little and took some measurements...") that I would have a bad heel strike problem.

When it came to getting larger wheels, my criteria was 20"-21" motorcycle rim, nut no greater than 2.75" width. I had to compromise and go with 3" tires, and luckily they fit.

So... I have no before/after comparison, and I completely ignored the type of tire over tread profile (wanted slick/street), diameter and width. That "decision" actually led me to this thread, since if I had stumbled upon a tubed 21" x 3" tire I never would have considered tubeless!

By the way the bike rides great, ignores potholes completely and hardly lets you feel curbs.

 

[sendler2112]

I have been using a DIY tubeless conversion on my mountain bikes with standard tires for years. The Stan's tire valve set up with the tire just seating against the rim was prone to burping. Using a 24" tube for a liner/ valve instead has proven fool proof as the tube and tire bead are bonded together. Slit the outside of an ultra light weight 24 inch tube to peel it open and put it on a 26" wheel with hair spray underneath. The 24" tube fits perfect on a 26" wheel and the .6mm tube is thin enough so as not to interfere with the bead hooking up to the rim. A 26" tube will be flopping loose after you slit it open. You have to use a tube which is one size smaller than the wheel. I get mine from Dan's Comp.
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http://www.danscomp.com/products-PARTS/446023/Dans_Ultra_Lite_Tubes.html
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Paint the bead area of the tire with hair spray or tire patch glue. Leave the edges of the tube hanging out as you mount the tire. Even up the extra tube material hanging out on both sides. Install 100 grams of Stan's sealant. You can weigh the bottle before and after to know how much you put in through the still open bead. Air it up with a blast from an air tank. Shake the tire and bounce it around on the floor to distribute the sealant. When all seems good, Carefully trim the excess tube along the rim with a razor knife. The tube is stuck to the wheel down the center and bonded to the tire at the bead. Even if you land something sideways hard enough to knock the tire momentarily away from the rim, the tube moves with it as they are glued together. This is much better and more reliable on a standard tire than relying on the sealant to seal the tire to the rim alone. Tubeless is the way to go. Virtually every world class mountain bike racer has gone tubeless as they are impervious to thorns and you can run a faster tire tread and make up for the traction with a low pressure that would be prone to snake bite a tube. Road use on an Ebike commuter will pretty much prevent all flats. Shake you tires once a month. If you can still hear the sealant splashing. it is good to go. Start with a large amount like 100 grams and you may never have to top off for the life of the tire.
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Check out the puncture video.
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http://vimeo.com/34667745
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[sendler2112]

Here is a pic of my tubeless conversion DIY with a slit open 24" ultra light tube on a 26" rim and 100 grams of Stan's sealant. Trim off the excess tube that is hanging out and it's done. I had to abandon the use of the 1.25 Continentals that came with the bike as I couldn't get them to bead up even with compressed air but the 1.75 Kenda Qwik Tendril beaded on very easily with the first puff of air and could have even been done with a floor pump. The Contis are too small for a fast Ebike anyway.
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http://vimeo.com/34667745
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