gas price thread

[neptronix]

Cool, but sad that America isn't making those things they're buying, haha.

Where's Elon when we need him?

 

[neptronix]

What help did they get from the government?

BYD got a lot of help from the Chinese government so that they could try to out-compete the United States. ( as usual )

 

[speedmd]

Cool, but sad that America isn't making those things they're buying, haha.

Where's Elon when we need him?

Working out details on a few things most likely. Hoping they don't kill the mod 2.

 

[Hillhater]

Encouraging to see some heavier commercial applications ,...but with its 124 mile range , it wont be venturing far out of the state !...It has limited applications,..not much more than a local delivery option.
Even the “extended range” ..563 kWh battery... can only run 200mls ( 3-4 hrs cruising on a highway)
We are gonna’ need a better battery !

A miniscule amount of thought on the aerodynamic properties of vehicle design would completely change that.
These little LFP Chinese trucks were probably built for local shipping, not anything else.

It may help a little, but it would be the equivalent of “lipstick on a pig” , when hauling 45 tons of beer up SFs hills at 40-50 mph !
Other similar vehicle may have a better chance
https://californiahvip.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/04/MY21-Lion8T-ZE-210311.pdf

 

[neptronix]

Wouldn't be lipstick on a pig on the highway, which these trucks spend a majority of their time on.

 

[Hillhater]

What help did they get from the government?

https://californiahvip.org/vehicle-category/heavy-duty/

...California’s Hybrid and Zero-Emission Truck and Bus Voucher Incentive Project (HVIP) plays a crucial role in the deployment of zero-emission and near-zero-emission technologies. HVIP accelerates commercialization by providing point-of-sale vouchers to make advanced vehicles more affordable. Launched by the California Air Resources Board in 2009, the project is part of California Climate Investments. HVIP is the earliest model in the U.S. to demonstrate the function, flexibility, and effectiveness of first-come first-served incentives that reduce the incremental cost of commercial vehicles.

That is taxpayer dollars being spent for you to deliver beer in SF ! :lol:
Also , those BYD trucks and busses are built in the USA. Lancaster, CA.
Note from that hvip site the other usa built vehicle too.

 

[Hillhater]

Wouldn't be lipstick on a pig on the highway, which these trucks spend a majority of their time on.

I thought you agreed these were best suited to local deliveries ?
124 miles on the highway is about 2 hours....that is a short working day for a truck !

 

[neptronix]

I'm talking about shipping trucks in general.

Short range trucks are well suited to being EVs. Regenerative braking can massively reduce idle fuel wasting and braking power. And you know a shipping truck takes a hell of a lot of power to get going... it's more than lipstick on a pig to switch drivetrains.

It's weird that we're both on an electric vehicle forum and i'm having to explain to someone why EVs would be a good choice for these applications..

 

[Hillhater]

I am just pointing out the current limitations of heavy EV trucks.
As you say they are well suited to urban applications, but it is going to take that “next technology” of battery before they can be practical for any long haul or interstate transport.

.a shipping truck takes a hell of a lot of power to get going...

Yes , and haul 45+ tons up hills,... but Aero or Regen is not going to solve that problem.
There are some more aero looking trucks on the HVIP site, but the best seem to need 600+ kWh to get to 250 miles range.

 

[nicobie]

I owned a small fleet of trucks for years and while I have no proof of it, I am pretty sure way more fuel is burned making local deliveries than in long distance hauling.

If I was still in the distributing business, I would be well into the process of switching to electric bobtail and short semi tractor trailer rigs. It wouldn't be to save the environment as much as to save money.

 

[neptronix]

It's just a hell of a lot of energy to move something like that. I agree that long haul is a challenge, because current battery technology, but aerodynamics are nearly free to implement into a design.

Regenerative braking makes for a lot of free energy in stop and go. A truck has a huge problem with momentum and wasting it into brake dust.

My little hypermiler car... if i never hit the brakes on a long 40mph stretch, i can see ~80mpg. i do stop and go in the same condition and i'm seeing in the 30's. For a car that starts and stops a lot, we could be talking about using half the energy.

A prius, which is roughly aerodynamically and efficiency wise, equivalent to my car, accomplishes similar fuel economy as my car on the highway, but in the city also, because it can recapture momentum, and i can't, i just have to coast to stoplights to even get close to prius mpg in the city!

 

[Hillhater]

I owned a small fleet of trucks for years and while I have no proof of it, I am pretty sure way more fuel is burned making local deliveries than in long distance hauling.

Fuel ( diesel) for sure is more economical on the highway,...but i am not sure that applies the same for EVs ?
But i am pretty sure those range numbers in the promo stuff are from optimum conditions.

 

[calab]

I wonder how much the wh/mile difference would be between loaded to the max vs empty.

I owned a small fleet of trucks for years and while I have no proof of it, I am pretty sure way more fuel is burned making local deliveries than in long distance hauling.

Fuel ( diesel) for sure is more economical on the highway,...but i am not sure that applies the same for EVs ?
But i am pretty sure those range numbers in the promo stuff are from optimum conditions.

 

[The fingers]

 

[Hillhater]

I wonder how much the wh/mile difference would be between loaded to the max vs empty.

I have not seen a figure for empty, but BYD have stated ..
124 miles fully loaded
167 miles with half load
...so maybe 200 ish empty ?

 

[calab]

You think its linear like that?
My guess would be slightly more, maybe 225 to give a number between 220 and 230 range.
Could we see a convoy of hypermile'ing semi trucks in streamline position on the highway in the coming future?

I wonder how much the wh/mile difference would be between loaded to the max vs empty.

I have not seen a figure for empty, but BYD have stated ..
124 miles fully loaded
167 miles with half load
...so maybe 200 ish empty ?

 

[Hillhater]

Empty trucks energy consumption is A pointless factor.
Trucks dont earn money running empty !

 

[stan.distortion]

You think its linear like that?
My guess would be slightly more, maybe 225 to give a number between 220 and 230 range.
Could we see a convoy of hypermile'ing semi trucks in streamline position on the highway in the coming future?
....

That's probably going to be the number one economisation technique, road trains to minimise aerodynamic losses. As far as I know google have been testing it for several years, one driver (e-stop button presser) in the front vehicle and the rest of the train slaved to it.
Upgrading railways would be the most sensible measure (plus canals) but railways... never wondered why they didn't increase capacity at the same rate as road transport and aren't nose to tail with trains? It's a closed shop, you don't get good rates if you're not in the club (that's how Standard Oil was able to monopolise the oil industry, rail transport rebates).

 

[The Toecutter]

Working out details on a few things most likely. Hoping they don't kill the mod 2.

The demographic to which that car would most appeal to is becoming increasingly priced out of automobile ownership altogether. The typical new car buyer makes an individual income of more than $80k/yr as of 2015 according to NADA, which basically means only the upper 20% of Americans can afford to buy new cars of ANY kind, given the cheapest offerings are near $20k. Which makes sense when you consider 3/4 of Americans live paycheck to paycheck and can't come up with $1,000 in an emergency. The bottom 80% on average drive 15+ year old used cars and can barely afford to keep them operable. A $1.00/gallon increase in gas prices is financially destroying the average person, and in the coming years, it is extremely likely that the rate of automobile ownership and vehicle miles traveled will decline significantly.

I personally don't think Tesla will be producing a Model 2 any time soon at that price point. Not that they couldn't: I think such a thing was doable 20 years ago, with enough volume, and if you could get the buyers, a product which the major automakers had no desire to produce whatsoever. I don't think Tesla will do it because it would cannibalize the sales of more expensive/profitable models. If they do produce an inexpensive offering, they will be bucking the automotive industry trend towards upsizing/upselling to pad more margin, and it wouldn't be the first trend Tesla disrupted. So there is reason to believe they will do it also. I'd be happy if they did the right thing, but I wouldn't count on it either.

 

[speedmd]

Empty trucks energy consumption is A pointless factor.
Trucks dont earn money running empty !

Last bunch of tail gate deliveries I have received were off of 40 foot box trailers that were 90% empty. Chatting with the drivers, I always ask where they were coming from and heading to. All so far were heading significant distances (more than 10 miles) between stops. Properly sized vans with lift gate would be a significant improvement for most of them. Dock heights - mix may need some updating to blend best to driveway deliveries that have been becoming more the trend.

 

[speedmd]

I personally don't think Tesla will be producing a Model 2 any time soon at that price point.

They better! :lol:

Seriously, I want a cheaper ev "hotrod" econobox. Plaid is out of reach. A two motor model 2 hatchback, I could jump at if in the 30K range. Three motors even better!

Just sick of driving a six speed truck. $4.05/gal last splash. The time is near.

 

[Ianhill]

Theres a local quarry thats always got truck traffic moving out in the mornings till night, they don't go too far like 100 miles eachway trips max but thise trucks do 3 of them a day and only sit to be filled thats where electric can't cope the quarry needs twice the units to be able to swap them keep the road logistics moving and the price of ev aint ever going to get cheap enough for them.

Without ore transport theres not alot gonna happen nations are really going to struggle with new ideolgy adapting technologys of old for example using rail again initial upfront cost will be higher for a cheaoer turn around at the end.

That will push small business into large groups that screw the workers harder its inevitable, already happening in my area good work is scarce the employers hold all the cards just look at p+o cruises latest screw no rights, thats why people fed up not going back to work large factorys are turning into labour camps that pays peanuts and tell you on the day if you got work or not while your recorded entering and existing the toilet with a logged maximum minimum and average time how is that data even allowed.

Criminal.

 

[CONSIDERABLE SHOUTING]

Yep, and companies like Amazon are TERRIFIED that the dam is beginning to break, now that Starbucks now has a union in New York. Workers have never been more agitated and ready to organize, and for good reason- the pandemic showed their class was MORE than willing to toss their health away the instant they could, and only provided basic protections when workers weren't coming back. When I used to hear people claim the stimulus checks were keeping people from working I was near ready to throw down.

The problem with LFP is that it's larger in size than regular lithium and exacerbates the range anxiety and car weight problem.
Next generation technologies like solid state batts would be a lot better.

I just bring them up because I've read they're more environmentally friendly, and they're a literal "decade-use no replacement" battery; their hardiness easily defeats two of the biggest oppositions to EVs (that are dying off fast) of battery longevity and fire risk. I keep cautious optimism on Solid-state, we've been working on them for quite awhile.

You do political canvassing huh.. i now get you a little bit better, lol.. ( also, thanks for holding back )

That bit about people knowing something is wrong but not knowing what to do about it is a symptom of most Americans finally learning that electing the 'right people' isn't going to result in positive change anymore. What we do in our political system is rotate leadership between two parties in a checkerboard pattern.

Yep, and I'm in healthcare too on the emergency side. I've protested all my life but really cranked it up in the last several years, had a few death threats in doing the canvassing (EDIT: Way, WAY more while at work). I'm not sure what you're okay with me going into deep details (even if I keep an even tone) but suffice to say... I never felt threatened by the people making the threats, because they were largely elderly and overweight. I do however, feel very threatened by the absurdity and cult behavior they have. I had 3 separate moments where mentioning of a name activated this Pavlov's-dog like rage where they threatened to shoot me on their doorstep, only to stop when I squared up, hand on hilt, and demanded them to repeat. One even did it in front of their whole family and toddler grandchild and went into a screaming rage, it was wild.

I think the issue is going to seriously require some ground-up rethinking of politics in general, but it'll demand some very even-keeled observations of how politics in America *works*, and how honestly shitty it is to be a politician. There's been great articles- One by The Atlantic on congresswomen comes to mind, I think it was published in 2018- where they detailed how wildly little ~$250,000/yr actually is as a salary when you have to pay your staffers, pay for your flights, office space... I think in the article senator Murkowski detailed how lobbyists literally wait for something to happen where you need cash and free time (sick family I think was the thing) and that's how they get them. It's why I firmly believe, that term limits without serious anti-lobbying laws and public resources for all elected officials will be doomed to fail.

That's super important. Religious communities, anarchists, and business people understand that problem the best, but the idea that we could function as a society without centralized management by working together ( requires community ) is a foreign concept to the generations of people who have lived under centralized management. Also, the idea that a 'looser leash' is unappealing because having a society would now require more personal responsibility.

We're going to live under governments we don't like for our entire lifetimes, just like everyone has over human history, because a majority of human beings prefer, and have preferred for ages, to be subservient to a leader, and they don't mind if that leader is abusive or not. So really, all the political bickering in most countries revolves around what KIND of abuse people prefer to receive, lol.

The real vote you can make in the USA is voting with your feet, or voting with your dollars. Most people are too distracted by governmental elections, that they fail to realize, and use this awesome power they have.

Or just the sheer number of things that local systems preform for average citizens- it's a very real "When you do things right, people aren't sure you've done anything at all" position. It's so ironic to me, that anarchists now have turned from kids writing the A into people who keep reconsidering the roles of government in peoples lives lmao
As for the subservience, totally agreed. Disposition- D/R/whatever- next to the name changes so much about how people perceive a law, even if the words don't.

 

[Quinc]

Yep, and companies like Amazon are TERRIFIED that the dam is beginning to break, now that Starbucks now has a union in New York. Workers have never been more agitated and ready to organize, and for good reason- the pandemic showed their class was MORE than willing to toss their health away the instant they could, and only provided basic protections when workers weren't coming back. When I used to hear people claim the stimulus checks were keeping people from working I was near ready to throw down.

Amazon is already working on that! By getting into schools and teaching kids how bad unions are..


[youtube]DpNJ4DBn-t8[/youtube]

 

[Hillhater]

..... If they do produce an inexpensive offering, they will be bucking the automotive industry trend towards upsizing/upselling to pad more margin, ........

I assume you know that you can buy a new Nissan Leaf for <$20k ( after tax credit) !
https://insideevs.com/car-lists/cheapest-ev-200-mile-range/