gas price thread

[nicobie]

For a lot of people the tax credit won't work because they don't make enough to owe taxes. It's just a credit on the tax you owe.

That really needs to change.

 

[Hillhater]

Sure, but I would guess if they dont earn enough to pay tax, they probably are not in the market to buy a new car anyway.
EVs, and all new car purchaces, are still the domain of the wealthy (relatively !) class.
Out of curiosity, what income would be needed , to take advantage of that $7.5k tax credit ?

 

[CONSIDERABLE SHOUTING]

Sure, but I would guess if they dont earn enough to pay tax, they probably are not in the market to buy a new car anyway.
EVs, and all new car purchaces, are still the domain of the wealthy (relatively !) class.
Out of curiosity, what income would be needed , to take advantage of that $7.5k tax credit ?

From only a little personal experience, that's reserved usually for people who sold or made enough money over the past year- and didn't move it around in savings/401Ks- to have to be called earned income. Most I know that fell under that was people who bought property and sold their old homes, or had huge job changes that netted some real pay-raises enough to rise in social class. The only people I know who did that bought an Outlander PHEV and used the credit to offset their end of year funds from buying a new home and car back in ~2019.

 

[The Toecutter]

I assume you know that you can buy a new Nissan Leaf for <$20k ( after tax credit) !
https://insideevs.com/car-lists/cheapest-ev-200-mile-range/

Key words: "after tax credit".

It's actually closer to $28k without the subsidy.

A lot cheaper is possible by cutting down the size of the battery. To get the same range on a smaller battery, the car would require significant aerodynamic drag reduction and mass reduction, which is well within the realm of possibility.

That is how a lot of the 1990s era prototypes were getting 200 miles range, using batteries that can hold roughly 1/3 as much energy per unit of mass as the ones in modern low-end EVs. Even though those 1990s era prototypes were significantly lighter than modern EVs by hundreds of kg, they also had an additional 200+ kg of additional battery mass over modern low-end EVs. Couple in a lower drag-coefficient and a smaller frontal area, and the range per kWh starts to go up fast.

With today's technology, it is very plausible to have < 2,500 lb EVs lugging around 500+ lb battery packs that are capable of seating 5 adults. With attention to drag reduction, < 0.12 kWh/mile to maintain 120 km/h is possible for a 5-seater compact car. Not everyone is a 300 lb lardass or needs a vehicle to accommodate that fact, and making a highly streamlined vehicle with the physical volume of an 80s/90s era compact car could keep frontal area and mass down. This in turn uses less materials and less batteries, cutting costs. With less mass, components all over the car don't need to be as mechanically strong nor the drivetrain as powerful for a desired amount of acceleration, further cutting mass/cost.

It's a cascading effect. The same applies to increasing the mass of a vehicle, which(when coupled with a constantly debased currency) is why we are now in the era of $100,000 pickup trucks that only the well-off can afford(which are also heavily subsidized in the U.S. through the Byzantine tax code, greatly moreso than low-end electric cars like the Leaf). Consider that I'm an engineer making over $70k/yr and can scarcely afford a $100,000 HOUSE, when the average home price is approaching $400k, and I make more money than most(I could "afford" a house if I don't mind being in debt the rest of my life, but that's not really affording it when I would then have to rely on the hope that I never lose my job or experience a financially destructive life event within that time period, having already experienced 3 layoffs in 11 years thus far. Tens of millions of Americans are one missed paycheck, medical emergency, accident, arrest, or financially destructive event away from losing everything they've been paying on for the last few decades, and when it happens, Vanguard and Blackrock and their ilk will swoop in and buy it all for pennies on the dollar with money printed out of thin air and rent it back out to everyone at further inflated rates). I still live in the ghetto, and save my money. Maybe I'll be able to get land soon, hopefully somewhere unincorporated that won't care if I'm living out of a tent or coroplast bicycle camper trailer while I build a more permanent shelter. Financing things in a market designed to funnel ones' hard-earned wealth upwards to people who never worked a day in their lives through endless interest payments is a losers' game, and has led to the need for finance in the first place through currency debasement due to the wage stagnation. This applies to cars every bit as much as homes. Things a minimum wage burger flipper or kid delivering newspapers on a bike could afford 50 years ago in cash, today takes someone earning within the upper 20% and then financing it for years. It's not a sustainable paradigm and that house of cards is going to fall in a most catastrophic manner.

Even a $20k car is quite expensive, when the vast majority of the population lives paycheck to paycheck and doesn't even have $1,000 in savings. I could afford such a car outright today if I wanted it, but people that can do that are well under 20% of Americans. I did spend $8k on a Milan SL velomobile, cash, last year. Best $8k ever spent. If I had the resources, I'd love to build a one-seater car with no bicycle drivetrain designed around a replica of its body. In mass production, such a thing might have a cost comparable to a scooter, and performance like a high-end motorcycle. It would be so light and aerodynamic you could make it out-accelerate virtually any production car using cheap ebike parts. You wouldn't need more than a 3-4 kWh battery pack to have competitive range to most mainstream EVs when cruising down the highway, which would then make every 110V outlet the equivalent to ChaDeMo or Level II, and every 220V outlet the equivalent to a Tesla Supercharger. And it could carry your groceries, keep you dry during your commute to work, and maybe even have climate control if an appropriate design for such a system were to be made. I think there would be a decent-sized niche for such a thing, even moreso if gasoline goes into the stratosphere regarding cost, or even becomes unavailable outright.

 

[calab]

Could but can you right now?
Seems like cars are few and far between on the new car lots and used car lots.
As a matter of fact, like I mentioned earlier somewhere, the lots are full of crappy fuel mileage trucks and large suv's.
What I was thinking of that someone could do is buy an old car and fix it up, swap in a crate engine its easy to install and mate it with a known excellent transmission, Tremec's will last forever. Not sure how much a mechanic would charge, but you'd have wheels in a known condition of new with no worries.

..... If they do produce an inexpensive offering, they will be bucking the automotive industry trend towards upsizing/upselling to pad more margin, ........

I assume you know that you can buy a new Nissan Leaf for <$20k ( after tax credit) !
https://insideevs.com/car-lists/cheapest-ev-200-mile-range/

 

[The Toecutter]

Could but can you right now?
Seems like cars are few and far between on the new car lots and used car lots.
As a matter of fact, like I mentioned earlier somewhere, the lots are full of crappy fuel mileage trucks and large suv's.
What I was thinking of that someone could do is buy an old car and fix it up, swap in a crate engine its easy to install and mate it with a known excellent transmission, Tremec's will last forever. Not sure how much a mechanic would charge, but you'd have wheels in a known condition of new with no worries.

A 90s era Miata with an LS1 and DIY aeromods could be made to exceed 30 mpg highway. And it would be all kinds of crazy fun.

 

[Hillhater]

[quote calab]calab » Mar 30 2022 12:47pm
Could but can you right now?[/quote]
Availability of the Leaf ??
I have no idea , and i am sure it will vary around the country,..as with any new car currently due to the component shortages, shipping delays , etc.
But the cost and tax credit is current for those that fit the requirements.
.. not that i would want a Leaf anyway !.i would choose a Bolt over the Leaf every time
....just pointing out what is possible.

calab
........
What I was thinking of that someone could do is buy an old car and fix it up, swap in a crate engine its easy to install and mate it with a known excellent transmission, Tremec's will last forever. Not sure how much a mechanic would charge, but you'd have wheels in a known condition of new with no worries.

Yes, i have done that in the past..much fun.
But, there is a lot more to a reliable car than just the engine + trans. Infact on many modern cars (2000+), those are some of the most reliable components, many good for 300-500+ km .
Suspension, brakes, A/C , dash instruments and electrical components generally have a limited reliability rep.
I do still long for an old 50s/60s light car ( pre electronic management and Fi) like a Ford Cortina or Lotus 7 ( dream !) just to run to the shop or bar in at weekends.
.....but never for interstate trips !
And of course some of those even fail on new cars, but then you have a warranty and consumer laws to protect you

 

[calab]

All very easy stuff to accomplish, besides if your doing that much work you'd throw in a new wiring harness, the company Painless makes new wiring harnesses, then everything else is just a cake walk. Brakes are easy peasy, throw in some extra coins for some custom dash gauges, I seen some sweet lcd based I believe from the likes of Banks but I could be wrong.

 

[Hillhater]

Give it a try yourself..
..then report back how “easy peasy”, economical, reliable, and “off the shelf” ..every thing is.
Have you ever “thrown in “ a new wiring harness , re-instrumented a dash, ?
How about repaired/ replaced interior trim ?
This is the type of work specialists do, and they charge specialist rates !
You a find that $15-20k for a new , warranted , car ...becomes attractive.

 

[calab]

Yes, I have done many of those big heavy lifts.

If no new fuel efficient cars are available then what are people to do?
For newish used fuel efficient cars (lets say last 5-10yrs) a premium of $5-10k is not unreasonable nor is a premium of $15-20k above and beyond precovid prices, its not suitable, but people will bite because they dont know what else to do, they do not want to get their hands dirty and yet they want the reliability factor for peace of mind, or a better reason why they dont take the left fork in the road is to not deal with the extra work involved with everything required to get a used vehicle very reliable through parts sourcing and mechanic finding. Get an import on the cheap with a 10-15yr old with a knocking engine or blown transmission, get the transmission guy to look that over, crate/rebuilt engine (ready to go) and whatever labor to slap it in, same engine as last one, find a listing thats been listed for 1-2 months and low ball 'em.

 

[CONSIDERABLE SHOUTING]

Could but can you right now?
Seems like cars are few and far between on the new car lots and used car lots.
As a matter of fact, like I mentioned earlier somewhere, the lots are full of crappy fuel mileage trucks and large suv's.
What I was thinking of that someone could do is buy an old car and fix it up, swap in a crate engine its easy to install and mate it with a known excellent transmission, Tremec's will last forever. Not sure how much a mechanic would charge, but you'd have wheels in a known condition of new with no worries.

In all honesty- and I don't remember where I found this, so don't quote me- but it is better for the environment to buy older cars and rebuild them to work again than buying new electrics. I also shouldn't read anything about LS swapping small roadsters, I have a GM T5 sitting around that I could use for it and the last thing I need is another project.

Give it a try yourself..
..then report back how “easy peasy”, economical, reliable, and “off the shelf” ..every thing is.
Have you ever “thrown in “ a new wiring harness , re-instrumented a dash, ?
How about repaired/ replaced interior trim ?
This is the type of work specialists do, and they charge specialist rates !
You a find that $15-20k for a new , warranted , car ...becomes attractive.

I actually have. The real 'cost' to wiring is that engine heads don't want to learn electricity, and even if they do quickly find out that wiring is time consuming and the initial cost is expensive. A box of OEM Deutsche connectors will easily run close to a $100 and you have to test, cut wire, crimp terminals, test, lace into plug, test again, loom, and probably test once you've done a final fit. Al of the Skid Factory has a great video series on it on YT and he lays out excellently why it's expensive.
Man, I tried fitting carpet once. Never again.

Brakes are easy peasy, throw in some extra coins for some custom dash gauges, I seen some sweet lcd based I believe from the likes of Banks but I could be wrong.

We're starting to see tablets used as dashboards but only now are they being rated for temperatures cars see. One dude I knew had a tablet PC as his gauge cluster and found out too late that most tablets can't handle extreme temps. Even arduino ECUs have problems with vibrations until they're cosmolined.

Even a $20k car is quite expensive, when the vast majority of the population lives paycheck to paycheck and doesn't even have $1,000 in savings. I could afford such a car outright today if I wanted it, but people that can do that are well under 20% of Americans. I did spend $8k on a Milan SL velomobile, cash, last year. Best $8k ever spent. If I had the resources, I'd love to build a one-seater car with no bicycle drivetrain designed around a replica of its body. In mass production, such a thing might have a cost comparable to a scooter, and performance like a high-end motorcycle. It would be so light and aerodynamic you could make it out-accelerate virtually any production car using cheap ebike parts. You wouldn't need more than a 3-4 kWh battery pack to have competitive range to most mainstream EVs when cruising down the highway, which would then make every 110V outlet the equivalent to ChaDeMo or Level II, and every 220V outlet the equivalent to a Tesla Supercharger. And it could carry your groceries, keep you dry during your commute to work, and maybe even have climate control if an appropriate design for such a system were to be made. I think there would be a decent-sized niche for such a thing, even moreso if gasoline goes into the stratosphere regarding cost, or even becomes unavailable outright.

This discussion is why i'm frustrated in the likes of Casey Putsch and his Omega Car, which he intentionally made to be as aerodynamic and as eco-friendly as possible. 100MPG diesel that out-accelerates a Viper, though I'm not sure if he ever provided hard numbers on it's Cd or weight, and has never shown how he made the body composite as far as I know. It's exists tho, and lots of what he's said is true:
[youtube]5EqLXt0qV-I[/youtube]

... based on public videos he's posted and members of the Genius Garage who work on it. But notice- I'm not sure if it has a frunk or much carrying space. Note how it has no seats either- where you sit is molded into the body and frame itself. That outer shell? In past videos are several inches think (!). It's super interesting and I hope if more people put fires under his feet he'll release actual plans for it- I'd buy em!- but lets not even try to debate that buyers everywhere would find it very strange. Hell, with that acceleration it would honestly be a detriment too, tons would drive it and find just how fast that makes you and have to ask themselves if they're responsible enough to accept that responsibility.

 

[speedmd]

Tale of two cities? Is Legacy auto in trouble? Starting too look so. Sam has a good report on Fords chief Jim Farley's comments on what is ahead. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pKf1ETg_fJM&t=300s Also posted Ford announced new hydrogen turbo motor patent.

S. Munro has look see with the suspension guys of the underside of his new Rivian truck. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v8wCm233fXk

GM boasts 65000 pre order ev hummers. Still a year or more away. Some interesting times heading for Detroit.

 

[JackFlorey]

Even a $20k car is quite expensive, when the vast majority of the population lives paycheck to paycheck and doesn't even have $1,000 in savings.

I agree. However, the average price of a new car is $47,000. That is no doubt in part due to people buying quarter million dollar supercars - but the average used car (where you typically do NOT see people buying supercars) is $29,000. And people are still buying them, given how low inventories are.

You can make the argument that they should not be that expensive, which would be a reasonable argument. But they are - and people are buying them at those prices.

 

[JackFlorey]

Tale of two cities? Is Legacy auto in trouble? Starting too look so.

They are not going to be in trouble for years. Here's what going to happen short term:

Everyone is going to want an EV or hybrid due to high fuel prices. They will buy them like crazy. Newspaper articles will lament the death of the gas powered car.

Then once 25% of the US gets those EVs and hybrids, gas demand will go down. Thus gas prices will go down. And people will start buying gas cars again. Newspaper articles will trumpet the renaissance of the gas guzzler. Anti-greens will sneer at all the clueless greens who thought they had "won."

The lower gas prices will lead to lower oil demand. The tight oil wells that can't be profitable under $70 a barrel will shut down. Oil prices will start creeping up again. Newspapers will say "gas cars are dead! Again." Etc etc.

 

[john61ct]

This is why fuel prices should be maintained at high levels.

The extra funds raised used to accelerate a mandated transition until it can become permanent.

 

[Hillhater]

This is why fuel prices should be maintained at high levels.

The extra funds raised used to accelerate a mandated transition until it can become permanent.

I will say it again.....
fuel/energy costs are a primary factor n the inflation of prices of most every item that we have to purchase to live normally.
So,incase you have not noticed, food, drink, even general services like the local plumber, will have o increase in price as a direct result of fuel costs. IE the everyday cost of living is increased !....
....just so you can live in your personal idea of “Green New Deal” ?

 

[JackFlorey]

This is why fuel prices should be maintained at high levels.

They're not going to be.

But that's not the end of the world. If gas prices start getting cheaper after 25% of the US is driving an EV - that's 25% less oil usage, which is a big deal.

 

[99t4]

By Associated Press

03/30/2022 09:01 PM EDT

"WASHINGTON — President Joe Biden is preparing to order the release of up to 1 million barrels of oil per day from the nation’s strategic petroleum reserve, according to two people familiar with the decision, in a bid to control energy prices that have spiked as the U.S. and allies have imposed steep sanctions on Russia over its invasion of Ukraine."

Q: Does anyone think this will decrease gas prices? I ask because--- (from same AP article)

"High oil prices have not coaxed more production, creating a challenge for Biden. The president has seen his popularity sink as inflation reached a 40-year high in February and the cost of petroleum and gasoline climbed after Russia invaded Ukraine. Crude oil on Wednesday traded at nearly $105 a barrel, up from about $60 a year ago.

Still, oil producers have been more focused on meeting the needs of investors, according to a survey released last week by the Dallas Federal Reserve. About 59% of the executives surveyed said investor pressure to preserve “capital discipline” amid high prices was the reason they weren’t pumping more, while fewer than 10% blamed government regulation."

Emphasis mine.

 

[calab]

You will have to start buying regular fuel instead of premium and oh no, how dare you thumb your nose in the air at coin-op car washes where you rinse the car for $2 then your glorified $15+ dazzle light show, no doubt with a starbucks in one hand and a pack of Marlboro's in the other.

 

[JackFlorey]

Does anyone think this will decrease gas prices?

Yes, for two reasons.

First (and this is the minor reason) it will slightly increase supply. We use 20 million barrels a day, and thus adding a million barrels a day will increase availability by about 5%. Increased supply, same demand = (slightly) lower prices.

However, that's in a free market, and this is not a free market. Oil producers have stated that they are holding supply low intentionally. And why wouldn't they? They are making money hand over fist while blaming Biden for everything.

Thus we come to the second (larger) reason. This removes that excuse from oil executives. If they DON'T lower prices once they get more supply, even the ignorati will start thinking "wait a minute - is this some kind of a scam? Are they keeping prices high ON PURPOSE?" And that sort of bad PR is PR they don't need right now. I mean, enough of that bad PR and Shell's board might not give their CEO another $8 million raise!

 

[99t4]

If they DON'T lower prices once they get more supply, even the ignorati will start thinking "wait a minute - is this some kind of a scam? Are they keeping prices high ON PURPOSE?"

Sure but are the "ignorati" going to even know about the augmented supply? And that the augmented supply is supposed to drive down the price? By definition, the ignorati won't know this and will not make the connection or understand the logic.

Still wondering if this plan will actually decrease gas prices.

 

[JackFlorey]

Sure but are the "ignorati" going to even know about the augmented supply?

I think "president released oil reserves" is simple enough to get to them.

 

[speedmd]

Another disruptor from geely based platform in the zeekr 001. China looks to be all in. delivering end of summer.

 

[DogDipstick]

We're starting to see tablets used as dashboards but only now are they being rated for temperatures cars see. One dude I knew had a tablet PC as his gauge cluster and found out too late that most tablets can't handle extreme temps. Even arduino ECUs have problems with vibrations until they're cosmolined.

Man, Toughbooks have been in cars for almost ten years by now. I used a computer for a 40 gauge cluster dash once. Worked great. Slam em off the dash, shoot em, burn them, they keep on running. I built the ECM harness and ran a racecar, with a Toughbook, for thousands of miles at 7500-7800rpm with no heat and no ac and smashing the computer off of every surface within two feet of it, even in hardcore crashes. They have been shot, burned, smashed, driven over, dragged behind four wheelers for miles, and they still boot up fine at the touch of a button. Military grade Panasonic computer.

 

[neptronix]

^-- that's bleepin' awesome. I want one now.

As a traveling IT guy, i've broken plenty of case pieces off Dell laptop cases thanks to hard cornering or braking. ( the 'company car' has a some suspension and brake mods, and it's hard to NOT hammer it around a turn )

These laptops tend to be awfully expensive though. Who's got the good value in durable laptops?