gas price thread

[CONSIDERABLE SHOUTING]

Wooooo Bear market nowww; though honestly, I can't help but feel like this current issue is partially media-driven hysteria and not actual "This is what you get when people stop buying things" problems. I'm happy I haven't been investing in the market like I should be, but personally my ignorance saves my ass more than I care to mention.

Yes, interest rates are going up finally but they are not taking the tariffs off imports. The fed was going to start raising rates 5 years ago at a slow rate to stop the economy from getting to hot. They replaced that chairman with a more compliant one and kept the rates at 0% or peddle to the metal. Then Covid, liquidity dumped like gas on a fire. Loss of workers with money. Now we want normal. This is the new normal, just stay strapped in for a bit longer. Get away from Gasoline it's going to stay high for a few years.

Tariffs are- from what I've learned- pretty dumb anyways and American history proves it. Taxing imports to try and jumpstart your own industries rarely works as intended, because every nation and their supply chain is different- meanwhile, you hurt consumers and lower the amount of money being moved, and that includes you taxing the imports in the first place. It wasn't until ~1920 that the US stopped it's major source of funding the Federal Government through Tarrifs, and that meant a huge amount of money and capital began to flow.
The interest rate changes are all in a goal to try and control the money; the Fed began printing cash (Money machine go brrrrrr) because we didn't have a choice; COVID and Trump's shutdown stopped capitalism and the stemming of money flow meant you had American's holding huge amounts of liquid cash while the market plunged- it became a fear of a "Cold Inflation", because even though it was obvious why people weren't spending much and the "uncertainty" is obvious to everyone, the line is still going down. My friend in finance believes they'll pull the same thing as Regan did in the early 80s to get out of stagflation- jack interest rates over 10% to force as much cash back into the fed as possible, maybe let some businesses wither, and hope that eventually the bottom falls out enough on US society that corporations HAVE to spend their billions in wages and benefits just to keep production going. Problem tho, is the fed doing so means more home ownership will be permanently out of reach for millions more, at a time when they need it, and we don't have the same industry as we did then.

Honestly... the current chairman isn't "compliant" at all. He's doing literally everything he can to keep this nation from going tits-up into a depression because COVID was a perfect answer to "what could kill the American economy?" question. Inflation is temporary, but a depression can last decades.
It's also not shocking that crypto sunk like a rock when rates went up. Play time's over!

https://www.mopedarmy.com/wiki/Moped_Laws:_United_States

Good to know, thanks! Looks like all my eBikes might need flags.

Goes on sale this week. $9500 USD for the 300 KLm model. Starts @ $7300.

It has "disinterested teenager face" lol

 

[speedmd]

speedmd wrote: ↑Jun 14 2022 2:20pm
Goes on sale this week. $9500 USD for the 300 KLm model. Starts @ $7300.
It has "disinterested teenager face" lol

Looks like a playful young kid to me. The Italian press is on to it. The little Fiat in the crosshairs.

https://www.repubblica.it/motori/sezioni/prodotto/2022/05/10/news/lumin_corn_lelettrica_cinese_da_4700_euro_che_sembra_un_fumetto-348874868/

 

[ZeroEm]

All I need at the moment is a little two door with room to haul the staples home. The little Fiat is cheap if it would hold up.

Would everyone mind giving their option of why Gasoline is so high? It might come down some, don't think it will be cheap again. Remember paying a US$1.00/Gallon in 1980. It was $1.90 here in SA before it started going up this time. So how can something be so cheap for so long. 40 yrs and not even a 100% increase? This requires some thought.

 

[speedmd]

The little Fiat is cheap if it would hold up.

The Fiat is over 30K USD, the Lumin Corn w/large LFP pack 9.5K. The Italians make sexy cars but high reliability has not been one of those things they are generally associated with. I would buy a lumin today if I could get one here.

everyone mind giving their option of why Gasoline is so high?

IMO, the landscape has changed to a reduced supply - more costly extractions scenario and blatant corruption. IMO it is well past time for government takeover of the energy sectors, just long enough to quell the turf wars and set some directional changes in the various industries. Could be a good opportunity for the right crew..

 

[Voltron]

A giant reason for the increases is the spread of cars. There's several billion more people using them then there were in the 80s.
And just like drug dealers, that got you hooked on cars because of the glow it gives you while you're using, they're not just going to drop the price because of whining now that you're hooked, but also still willing to pay whatever it takes to avoid the pain of withdrawal.

And this thread started in 2008... But you guys are still arguing about the price 14 years later, but also still paying whatever they tell you to pay.

Maybe less complaining, and more taking action to where you don't depend on their product to prop up high energy consumption lifestyles will bring the price down....

 

[Hillhater]

Remember paying a US$1.00/Gallon in 1980. It was $1.90 here in SA before it started going up this time. So how can something be so cheap for so long. 40 yrs and not even a 100% increase? This requires some thought.

Study the price vs timeline and the political changes along that same timeline.
Since the start of this thread ..2008.. the price has see sawed up and down between $1.60-$6+ per gal
The price fluctuations are unrelated to anything physical,..supply, resource, number of cars, etc.....but is directly related to political/economic decisions. If OPEC decides to cut production , for any petty political leverage,..the price goes up. If they need more cash, they INCREASE production and the barrel price drops (but revenue increases !)
Ditto if the US boosts production, the price reduces (2015-2020)
Much of the current pain is self inflicted by the current administration meddling in the supply chain ( even Dozy Joe admits the Ukraine is not the reason for most of the cost increase in the USA)

 

[Chalo]

The price fluctuations are unrelated to anything physical,..supply, resource, number of cars, etc.....but is directly related to political/economic decisions.

Oh for cripes' sake. I know you're a sucker for fairy tales of the chud kind, but come on.

[youtube]QnBqAzJXVGo[/youtube]

 

[speedmd]

Your not suggesting Honest Abe's Coal Gas Oil Subversive's Inc. is not, well, honest are you? :lol:

 

[ZeroEm]

I'm really confused!

Dozy Joe

fault, thought it was O'bama's fault. Now which is it? Wish I had that much power. Sounds political.

Asked for your thoughts, Next anything different like the oil companies see the begging of the end and going to make as much as possible. Not that the end is anytime soon.

 

[JackFlorey]

I'm really confused!

Dozy Joe

fault, thought it was O'bama's fault. Now which is it? Wish I had that much power.

Heck, that's nothing.

I have a friend who lives in Costa Rica. Gasoline prices went up even more there.

Joe Biden is so powerful he raised gas prices in COSTA RICA in his bid for world domination! So much for him being a clueless old man; he's an evil mastermind who runs the entire world!

 

[JackFlorey]

Would everyone mind giving their option of why Gasoline is so high?

Pretty straightforward. Oil companies have discovered that if they keep oil prices this high people still buy gas. They have a very strong incentive to keep refinery capacity low. (Note that we now have so much oil that we are exporting more than we import.)

As a secondary incentive, if they keep prices high, then republicans do better - and republicans give oil companies a LOT more pork.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2021/dec/06/oil-companies-profits-exxon-chevron-shell-exclusive

https://www.marketplace.org/2022/05/23/u-s-oil-refiners-margins-smash-records-but-few-plan-to-build-more-plants/

 

[john61ct]

if they keep prices high, then republicans do better

My gut says this is a huge factor.

Not just the FF industry MNCs, but oil-dependent state actors and our geopolitical "competitors" would love to see our ongoing political trends come to fruition.

 

[ZeroEm]

Sorry to say i'm glad to see the prices go up to reduce the amount used. Do feel for the people who need to drive far and addicted to gasoline. We need some rehab clincs and teach options like public transit, bicycles, e-bikes and other EV's.

 

[CONSIDERABLE SHOUTING]

Would everyone mind giving their option of why Gasoline is so high? It might come down some, don't think it will be cheap again. Remember paying a US$1.00/Gallon in 1980. It was $1.90 here in SA before it started going up this time. So how can something be so cheap for so long. 40 yrs and not even a 100% increase? This requires some thought.

It'll never be cheap again; even if magically we snapped hundreds of millions of Americans off cars for the months where there isn't white on the ground, oil companies would simply shut down and furlough the pumps that don't produce enough to keep the bottom line high enough. After the war on terror, the window is pushed too far despite seeing $1.99 for gas last year at this time. There's far more, but Chalo already posted the Climate Town video.

if they keep prices high, then republicans do better

My gut says this is a huge factor.

Same. The OpenSecrets Wiki shows the absurd amount the Texas oil companies pay to the politicians down there (Cruz alone was making more than half a mil in "lobbying" alone); they run that state, and it's impressive renewables have made such inroads as they have.

 

[CONSIDERABLE SHOUTING]

Sorry to say i'm glad to see the prices go up to reduce the amount used. Do feel for the people who need to drive far and addicted to gasoline. We need some rehab clincs and teach options like public transit, bicycles, e-bikes and other EV's.

I mean, if we were good at maintaining the messaging that it's the fault of the Russian invasion, sure. Not to drag that ugly discussion here, but democrats have always let republicans get away with lies in this nation.

 

[JackFlorey]

Not to drag that ugly discussion here, but democrats have always let republicans get away with lies in this nation.

Yep. They have never been willing to descend to the republican's level, and have suffered as a result.

But back to gas prices.

It is good to keep in mind that while gas prices are certainly high here, they are still cheaper than most of the rest of the world. Some other countries, with prices adjusted to gallons and dollars:

Hong Kong $10.966
Norway $9.643
Denmark $9.323
Central African Republic $9.031
Monaco $8.938
Finland $8.894
Iceland $8.755
Greece $8.709
Netherlands $8.582
Singapore $8.399

 

[The Toecutter]

Hong Kong $10.966
Norway $9.643
Denmark $9.323
Central African Republic $9.031
Monaco $8.938
Finland $8.894
Iceland $8.755
Greece $8.709
Netherlands $8.582
Singapore $8.399

To think that people are being forced to pay that for individual transportation. A 500+ mpg single-seater commuter running off a direct-injection lean-burn small displacement high-compression engine really isn't that hard. Start with a velomobile and build everything up from there as needed. Better yet, ditch gasoline on top of that and go electric.

Mine gets 0.008 kWh/mile. I can go 200 miles on $0.15 @ 30-35 mph. I've ridden this thing more than 15,000 miles since converting it to electric, and haven't spent more than $12 on electricity. An econobox driving around Greece that if hypermiled could eek out 60 mpg at similar driving conditions to my velo, wouldn't even get 100 miles of travel for that same cost.

That's a factor of more than 150. A cost difference per mile measurable at the second order of magnitude.

Making a "car" version of that vehicle I built that could do 200 miles per $0.50 @ 70 mph, with no bicycle drivetrain, is not out of the realm of possibility. And versus a normal size car, material cost to produce it would be greatly reduced. Mass production of such a thing could see costs going down to that of a moped or scooter, and it would be safer and (for most people)more comfortable than a motorcycle, as well as usable in inclement weather(and if designed right, could be comparable in safety to an economy car from the 1980s in spite of extremely low mass).

The vehicles we are allowed to buy are deliberately wasteful, and are designed to be such from the start. The whole of human civilization will pay a major price for that, and those who can't even afford to drive cars will be the most heavily burdened by the cost. Our "leaders" are even taking food off the market to manufacture ethanol to run these cars, just to look like they're doing something to lower gas prices, even though EROEI of corn ethanol is < 1, meaning more fossil fuel inputs are needed to produce it than the energy that can be extracted from it, and prices are going to spike for food soon too.

Considering building 60-100 mpg cars with few compromises was doable 5 decades ago and 200 mile range EVs were possible almost 3 decades ago, this whole situation is retarded.

 

[Voltron]

Germany trying solutions to the trucking bottleneck...
Overhead power on the highway for long distance, but also still able to drive on regular streets.

 

[JackFlorey]

Considering building 60-100 mpg cars with few compromises was doable 5 decades ago and 200 mile range EVs were possible almost 3 decades ago, this whole situation is retarded.

In fact a 70mpg car WAS built about 20 years ago - the original Honda Insight. It didn't sell. Almost no one wanted it.

 

[JackFlorey]

Overhead power on the highway for long distance, but also still able to drive on regular streets.

Boston now uses dual-fuel buses - diesel on the open roads, overhead electric in the city and on the underground "subway" routes.

 

[The Toecutter]

In fact a 70mpg car WAS built about 20 years ago - the original Honda Insight. It didn't sell. Almost no one wanted it.

It was a two seater, a category generally the domain of the performance vehicle market, with no performance. That's not at all a surprise.

As a proof of concept, it worked. They should have given it more performance and rear drive. It could have sold a lot more. Its competition were cars that could do 0-60 mph in < 7 seconds. That could have been achieved without sacrificing efficiency, or adding too greatly to the cost.

Reducing the drag coefficient of cars is the most significant thing that can be done to improve fuel efficiency, and it can be done without the vehicle operator or passengers sacrificing anything. Yet, the average new car has a drag coefficient that matches the 1921 Rumpler Tropfenwagen. Automobile aerodynamics for commercially-sold vehicles are a CENTURY behind the technology that exists today. Modern cars and crossovers could and should be in the low 0.1X range for drag coefficient. The cost of using the wind tunnel can be averaged over tens of thousands of units to where the increased cost is $XXX per vehicle, saving the vehicle operator many thousands of dollars over its life span versus today's baseline.

Even Mercedes, with their recent low 0.2X designs, knew how to do it 50 years ago. The Mercedes C-111-III proves it.

The only thing that has to be given up is planned obsolescence. And in this society, doing so is a bit of a taboo, especially since a small group of people who own most of the wealth feel entitled to everyone else's money.

Hell, I built an 8 Wh/mile EV WITHOUT access to a wind tunnel or advanced aerodynamics knowledge. An industry with billions of dollars at its disposal and teams of engineers could easily do at least 1/10th as well.

 

[Voltron]

The real reason not much changes is pretty simple.
Humans are driven by their egos, and love conspicuous wastefulness as a mating display.

You could design the perfect car that runs on moonbeams, and only emits fine quality drinkable alcohol out the tailpipe, and most humans would still chose an actual steam locomotive on wheels if it gave them something to brag about, and feed their little child "look at me Mommy, I'm in charge of something big and loud!" desires.

And as long as their mates see that as some kind of superior survival trait, they're going to keep getting together and having big pathologically wasteful broods of little polluters that are even worse.

And maybe that's just fine. Birds and mice don't seem to mind living in teeming hordes nesting in their own shit. Humans will probably evolve to love it too, the way we're going.

 

[The Toecutter]

The real reason not much changes is pretty simple.
Humans are driven by their egos, and love conspicuous wastefulness as a mating display.

That's all fine and good for those who can afford it. Most cannot, and everywhere I go, random strangers are asking me where they can get a vehicle like mine. Their motivation? Not having to pay ridiculous sums of money to get around. Nothing is being made to cater to the needs of the bottom 80% of the population priced out of the new car market and who are increasingly being priced out of fuel.

The Chinese were about to make such vehicles for the U.S. market, but safety regulations were increased to levels of absurdity, partially in effort to prevent the established industry in the U.S. from getting their lunch eaten by $5,000 new cars.

If someone made a no-frills, basic car designed for hauling a family from A to B, had minimal features(perhaps only air conditioning/radio), bare minimum to pass safety regulations, and was designed for ultimate load reduction so that it got 80+ mpg, it could probably be sold for a cost comparable to a Mitsubishi Mirage. You wouldn't need more than 100 horsepower to top out at 150+ mph in such a thing either, as to get that fuel economy, drag coefficient would be in the low to mid 0.1X range. And with gas prices being what they are, the theoretical demand among those who don't have much money would be HUGE. The problem is that in the US, most live paycheck to paycheck, so even something like this would be out of reach without good enough credit to get a loan.

The upper middle class and wealthier are the drivers of the new vehicle market. With today's designs, no one else is being catered to. Even the low-end vehicles are marketed to this demographic, but they don't sell much because this demographic doesn't care about operating cost or efficiency. The tastes of this demographic have been deliberately manipulated by the auto industry through billions of dollars of advertising as well so that higher-margin, higher-maintenance vehicles could be pushed onto the public and successfully sold. The upper middle class and wealthier are not the demographic suffering from high gas prices. For most in the U.S., that extra $200/month they're spending on gas was their food budget, and they were already living paycheck to paycheck before gas prices went up.

This is why used Toyota Camrys and Honda Accords retain their value so well. Those who cannot afford to buy new cars want something inexpensive to operate, fuel efficient, and reliable. And they are competing for the limited number of these cars on the used market. The same can also be said for used Teslas.

The auto industry is very much to blame for this situation, as is oil industry, and government.

 

[Voltron]

"If someone made a no-frills, basic car designed for hauling a family from A to B, had minimal features(perhaps only air conditioning/radio), bare minimum to pass safety regulations"


They've had those for decades. And consumers in America have been turning their noses up at them for just as long. And from my experience, way more people in America at least, would live with the most ridiculous car loan, and pay thru the nose for their image... Until they're flat broke. Then they might look for alternatives.

But as soon as they're back on their feet...look out if you're in the way between them and their next gas guzzling ego enhancer.
The only people to blame are the ones that but that crap, not the ones who produce it.
The only true vote you have in America is what you choose to spend money on.
And year after year, decade after decade, they make the same selfish wasteful choices with their dollars.

 

[The Toecutter]

"If someone made a no-frills, basic car designed for hauling a family from A to B, had minimal features(perhaps only air conditioning/radio), bare minimum to pass safety regulations"


They've had those for decades. And consumers in America have been turning their noses up at them for just as long. And from my experience, way more people in America at least, would live with the most ridiculous car loan, and pay thru the nose for their image... Until they're flat broke. Then they might look for alternatives.

But as soon as they're back on their feet...look out if you're in the way between them and their next gas guzzling ego enhancer.

They haven't had cars like that with low drag. That part was always ignored by the industry in favor of maintaining planned obsolescence, so these cars offered nothing of value for the sacrifice. A no frills car that got 80+ mpg and topped 150 mph off of a power-starved 1.2L 4-cylinder engine that could also haul a family in reasonable comfort would be a compelling argument in its own right, especially if the cost is not increased over one that gets 35 mpg(eg. Mitsubishi Mirage), and nothing else is otherwise sacrificed.