How Will Electric Vehicles Be Modified in the Future?

[furcifer]

Again, I see no reason why we wouldn't modify an electric car.

People will. It just won't be power mods. I'm sure there will be a few but it won't be anywhere near what it is today. How could it be, I'd say 90% of the tuning market is exhaust, cams and turbos. All gone.

 

[ZeroEm]

Have not thought much about more power for my car. I try to get more miles/KW. For more power would need to get rid of the eco tires (narrow, low rolling resistance) wider, softer. I have noticed that they somewhat match the motors to the battery size. Would look to upgrading to a newer motor/inverter, (what a job that would be) then would look in the direction of rear sub frame to add a rear motor, more battery in the back seat and hatch area. I would like to start with controlling the car like the regen. fully variable and coast mode. what do you think!

 

[Hillhater]

eta: I think this conversation has run it's course. I understand perfectly what people are saying. I just don't think a company is going to compete with Tesla unless they offer the same things, namely the ability to enable a "tuned" mode. When I ask why manufacturers wouldn't everyone keeps saying "Because ICE's didn't". The fact is electric car companies are and will continue to do so, or they won't be electric car companies.

You seem to have a selective memory..?
I and others have pointed out several ICE s that come factory equiped with various “performance” modes ( obviously none termed ludicrous !). Infact you can look at most any upmarket ICE,,(Merc, BMW, JAG, etc etc) ..and you will find a button, switch, twist nob, touch control, etc to alter the performance mode in multiple ways.
That “gimmic” is not something new or exclusive to EVs

Again, I see no reason why we wouldn't modify an electric car.

People will. It just won't be power mods. I'm sure there will be a few but it won't be anywhere near what it is today. How could it be, I'd say 90% of the tuning market is exhaust, cams and turbos. All gone.

I guess my only question is, how fast is your blender? Your washing machine? How about your hair dryer? How about your vacuum?

There are a bunch of electric motors lying around your house. How many are tweaked out?

There's a passion for tuning ICE motors that just doesn't exist for electrics. Are you also considering that?

Again , selective thinking...... you seem to ignor which site you are posting on, ?
Probably the most numerous “EV” in the world , is an Ebike, and just look behind you at how many of those are left standard around here !
One of the other early “EV” s is electric Golf Carts.......have you seen the forums for folks tuning those into wheelie monsters, or 1/4 mile racers.
Then there are a whole organisation of EV drag racers who have their own meetings for EVs in all states of tune. As well as the “Zero TT” bike racers.
Taking into consideration the relative insignificant numbers of road going EVs in the world, i would say there is a high proportion of electric vehicle tuners around ...and growing daily.

 

[SquidBonez]

People will. It just won't be power mods. I'm sure there will be a few but it won't be anywhere near what it is today. How could it be, I'd say 90% of the tuning market is exhaust, cams and turbos. All gone.

Well sure there's not going to be as many power mods because there's less to an electric car to modify. Look at electric RC cars vs gas. You can do all sorts of things to build an engine in a gas RC car, but with electric really it's just a matter of swapping out the few components that make it run for better components (motor, battery, esc...that's really it). Take that concept and scale it up. Point is people will do power mods, but I agree, there will be less options. Look to the Zero motorcycle guys and what they're doing; swapping controllers, adding better cooling, machining motors, etc. In the future we'll probably see battery swaps being more common among other things. That's still a much smaller list than what you can do on an ICE bike, but there's still mods to be done nonetheless. And if anything, that's not a bad thing. Less things to improve = less money spent to go faster.

 

[billvon]

People will. It just won't be power mods. I'm sure there will be a few but it won't be anywhere near what it is today. How could it be, I'd say 90% of the tuning market is exhaust, cams and turbos. All gone.

But there are cold gas thrusters. And once Tesla launches the next Roadster, those parts will be available as spares and in junkyards.

 

[furcifer]

You seem to have a selective memory..?
I and others have pointed out several ICE s that come factory equiped with various “performance” modes ( obviously none termed ludicrous !). Infact you can look at most any upmarket ICE,,(Merc, BMW, JAG, etc etc) ..and you will find a button, switch, twist nob, touch control, etc to alter the performance mode in multiple ways.
That “gimmic” is not something new or exclusive to EVs

None of them turned their 4 door family sedan into a sub 3s super car. Those buttons change shift points and maybe lower the suspension. NONE OF THEM turn on a couple hundred hp and put it to the wheels.

It's not much of a gimmick anymore. It's the best of both worlds at the touch of a button.

Again , selective thinking...... you seem to ignor which site you are posting on, ?
Probably the most numerous “EV” in the world , is an Ebike, and just look behind you at how many of those are left standard around here !
One of the other early “EV” s is electric Golf Carts.......have you seen the forums for folks tuning those into wheelie monsters, or 1/4 mile racers.
Then there are a whole organisation of EV drag racers who have their own meetings for EVs in all states of tune. As well as the “Zero TT” bike racers.
Taking into consideration the relative insignificant numbers of road going EVs in the world, i would say there is a high proportion of electric vehicle tuners around ...and growing daily.

If your point is the future of electric vehicle tuning is toys and not passenger vehicles then I think you're absolutely right. Dropping old electric motors into golf carts, shopping carts, snowmobiles, homemade helicopters, lawnmowers etc. for sure.

As for passenger vehicles it will be relegated almost exclusively to old ICE cars and a retrofit. It's the only thing that makes sense. There are a lot of old ICE sports cars that could probably benefit greatly from a swap. Even the old VW vans, a vehicle that suffered from a lack of power. The Boxster swap was popular, I can only imagine how much fun an electric would be.

That's where the potential is. It's not going to be in new vehicles. Not power mods. There might be a brief period where a few people try and ruin a $10K battery, burn their house down or electrocute themselves. But that will be short lived.

 

[furcifer]

Take that concept and scale it up.

It doesn't scale up.

And let me tell you, you're going to have a hell of a time getting your wife to allow you to tinker with the electrical on a car she's putting the kids in. Hopefully as electrics become more common the fear will die down, but it's still not the same as a cam and a cat-back.

 

[furcifer]

But there are cold gas thrusters. And once Tesla launches the next Roadster, those parts will be available as spares and in junkyards.

I had to Google that.

You have to figure in the era of silent running electric cars someone is going to do it. This may be one of the more realistic electric power mods put forth in this thread.

 

[Punx0r]

The allowable design stress in an electric vehicle is such that it should be able to handle something like a ludicrous made out of the factory.

This is the crux of the disagreement and I'm sorry but you're wrong. Coping with the stress of ludicrous mode will have been baked into the fundamental design.

 

[furcifer]

This is the crux of the disagreement and I'm sorry but you're wrong. Coping with the stress of ludicrous mode will have been baked into the fundamental design.

Well you don't know automotive engineering. Most engine components are designed with a factor of safety between 5 and 8. The only exception I can think of offhand are clutches where it's intended to act as a point of failure. (Tesla's are fused for this purpose)

Presuming EV engineers haven't followed these guidelines in designing vehicles is foolish. At the very least your ultimate strength should be based of the slope of the torque/power curve, which you can see from the curves I've provided is upwards of 1000Nm.

It's obviously not desirable to operate within this range but that's a huge difference from saying it doesn't exist and can't be done. It can be done and is being done, the proof is in the pudding.

eta: I'm trying to find the exact factor of safety through the SAE but everything is behind a paywall. At a minimum I would expect it to be 3. This is something pretty obvious, a fully loaded car towing a trailer is going to put much more stress on the drive train than ludicrious mode.This isn't an area of design with razor thin margins you can reduce for "efficiency".

 

[Punx0r]

Well you don't know automotive engineering. Most engine components are designed with a factor of safety between 5 and 8. The only exception I can think of offhand are clutches where it's intended to act as a point of failure. (Tesla's are fused for this purpose)

And the allowable load when calculating your Factor of Safety is what? That's right, the normal maximum you expect it to see in service. If you add a "ludicrous" button that boosts motor torque by 20, 50, whatever % you either need to strengthen the parts to maintain your desired FoS, or you accept a lower FoS, which I've said from the beginning, is exactly what aftermarket tuners are prepared to do: Tradeoff reliability for performance. The point of a FoS is to ensure reliability.

Your reasoning seems to go like this:

1) This hoist is rated to lift a maximum of 10 tonnes
2) But it has a Factor of Safety of 5:1
3) So I should occasionally be able to lift 15 tonnes
4) But if it can do it once it proves it's designed to do more, so it should be able to do it all the time, otherwise it's not engineered properly
5) So the manufacturer should increase the rating to 15 tonnes

Just replace "hoist" with some part of a vehicle drivetrain.

I'm afraid I'm with you up to and including step 2), but we divert thereafter.


The main battery fuse in a Tesla isn't intended to protect the drivetrain from mechanical failure.

the proof is in the pudding.

Aside, or eta if you prefer, but it's "the proof of the pudding is in the eating"

 

[furcifer]

The point of a FoS is to ensure reliability.

Nope. SAFETY, it's in the name.

Your reasoning seems to go like this:

1) This hoist is rated to lift a maximum of 10 tonnes
2) But it has a Factor of Safety of 5:1
3) So I should occasionally be able to lift 15 tonnes
4) But if it can do it once it proves it's designed to do more, so it should be able to do it all the time, otherwise it's not engineered properly
5) So the manufacturer should increase the rating to 15 tonnes

No the rating is based on the allowable design. The hoist must be able to lift 50 tonnes before failure.

I'm afraid I'm with you up to and including step 2), but we divert thereafter.

That's because you don't know what your'e talking about and refuse to listen.

The main battery fuse in a Tesla isn't intended to protect the drivetrain from mechanical failure.

I should think that's obvious. It doesn't seem very obvious to you that's because the mechanical system has a factor of safety well in excess of the electrical.

Like I said, if the drive train wasn't designed to handle a fully loaded car towing a trailer it wouldn't be able to handle a performance mode or performance upgrades. The factor of safety is well in excess of any fractional increase in hp.

The only thing I can think of that might support your argument is if the factor of safety must be maintained because of Federal regulations. It's unlikely, but if it was designed to the bare minimum of 3 and you were required to have 3, enabling a performance mode would cut into that. Typically this wouldn't be a problem just because of rounding. You always round up in component design. The next size up shaft, bearing, fastener etc.

There's no argument that this isn't "good" for a vehicle. But saying it can't or won't be done is laughable. Tesla's proving that. And the weak point in the system is not the drive train, it's the battery and traction motors. I guess it's possible to add a third traction motor but it would probably only improve handling and not power. Because the motors aren't intended to be serviced like ICE's Tesla really packs them into the frame, to the point where they are integral. A finite amount of space means a finite amount of copper. But again, if people decide they want a handling package in lieu of a speed package, it seems like the factory could just as easily add a third traction motor.

As for the batteries I would argue this is the actual weak link in the design. Tesla seems to be improving battery technology and then limiting them through software to replace older packs that have been phased out. If things continue this way indefinitely then I guess there's room for upgrades through battery swaps. But you're still left with a factory flash to utilize the full potential of the battery, which isn't much of a modification IMO.

Like I said right from the get go, there isn't much room for modification of an electric motor because it is so efficient. You may as well consider them to be part of the frame when talking about modifications.

 

[SquidBonez]

It doesn't scale up.

And let me tell you, you're going to have a hell of a time getting your wife to allow you to tinker with the electrical on a car she's putting the kids in. Hopefully as electrics become more common the fear will die down, but it's still not the same as a cam and a cat-back.

How so? You already agreed that people will modify "toys" as you said (golf carts and RC cars for example), which operate on the exact same basic principles as a full size car, simply scaled down and simplified. You have people today ALREADY modifying electric vehicles with literally no aftermarket support, so why is this such a controversial thing for you to accept when a dedicated aftermarket does form? And yeah, I wouldn't put my kids in my project car because my project car would be a fast car, regardless of its source of power. :lol:

I had to Google that.

You have to figure in the era of silent running electric cars someone is going to do it. This may be one of the more realistic electric power mods put forth in this thread.

So you'd sooner accept that people will strap rockets to their cars before you accept people would modify their powertrains? :?

 

[furcifer]

How so?

I've said this numerous times. If you blow up a $6000 ATV screwing around it doesn't mean anything. You blow up a $60 000 car on the road and the consequences could easily cost you millions of dollars in terms of liability, lost wages, insurance etc.

I also put forth that the simplicity or lack of components in an electric means that catastrophic failure is more likely in an electric. There's just many more failure points in an ICE. The beauty of an electric is that you can isolate these components by use of software and fuses. But we are specifically talking about bypassing these fail safes in order to exceed factory recommendations.

I will admit this is more based in logic that cold hard fact. So this is debatable. The problem is the cost of a battery is a significant part of the purchase price. And you really can't "repair" a battery so you're talking about potentially writing off $10K to drop a couple tenths of a second off the 0-60. IT DOESN'T MAKE SENSE.

I don't think I should have to say this again so please remember this. It's my opinion that this is most likely to happen. People are going to be less likely to risk a significant investment for marginal performance gains in the EV era. This is purely speculation on my part but I've given you tons of good reason why I believe this to be true.

So you'd sooner accept that people will strap rockets to their cars before you accept people would modify their powertrains? :?

Totally, there's no reason to modify the power train. It doesn't happen now because it isn't necessary, and it especially won't happen in the future because of how EV's are designed.

So yah, I can see why Elon is talking about it. I mean sure he's talking out of his ass but there is a point where you're pulling over a g and the only thing you can do it put giant tires on the vehicle and turn it into a dragster or add rockets. Both are equally impractical for a road vehicle but rockets are way cooler. Recaro needs to start on designing g suits.

 

[Punx0r]

The point of a FoS is to ensure reliability.

Nope. SAFETY, it's in the name.

I think you should probably read a little... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Factor_of_safety

No the rating is based on the allowable design. The hoist must be able to lift 50 tonnes before failure.

This explains why you seemed to struggle to understand why tuning a vehicle may be acceptable to an individual user but not to a manufacturer responsible for thousands or millions of vehicles. You seem to think that if a shaft is designed to withstand 1000Nm without breaking then no matter how many are made, they are all guaranteed to withstand 1000Nm in any environment or useage scenario.

That's because you don't know what your'e talking about and refuse to listen.

OK.

The main battery fuse in a Tesla isn't intended to protect the drivetrain from mechanical failure.

I should think that's obvious. It doesn't seem very obvious to you that's because the mechanical system has a factor of safety well in excess of the electrical.

What you said previously:

The only exception I can think of offhand are clutches where it's intended to act as a point of failure. (Tesla's are fused for this purpose)

I'd add that you likely don't know the safety factors for the electrical or mechanical components in a Tesla so it's interesting you've made this assertion. I'd further add that the Model S had big problems with early life transmission failures. I'd further, further add that the presence of a clutch is generally not effective in preventing transmission or driveline failures in vehicles.

Like I said, if the drive train wasn't designed to handle a fully loaded car towing a trailer it wouldn't be able to handle a performance mode or performance upgrades. The factor of safety is well in excess of any fractional increase in hp.

Interesting to see you appear to believe component loading is linear to component life i.e. I really wish I lived in the World as you imagine it to be: one were you have triple the load on a component with a 3:1 SF and there's no significant reduction in life

You always round up in component design. The next size up shaft, bearing, fastener etc.

It sounds like you do have some experience with component design but not with how they are tested, rated or subsequently perform, and fail.

There's no argument that this isn't "good" for a vehicle. But saying it can't or won't be done is laughable. Tesla's proving that. And the weak point in the system is not the drive train, it's the battery and traction motors.

As mentioned above, the Model was blowing gear reductions in <10,000 miles.

Like I said right from the get go, there isn't much room for modification of an electric motor because it is so efficient.

This is just wrong.

 

[furcifer]

This explains why you seemed to struggle to understand why tuning a vehicle may be acceptable to an individual user but not to a manufacturer responsible for thousands or millions of vehicles. You seem to think that if a shaft is designed to withstand 1000Nm without breaking then no matter how many are made, they are all guaranteed to withstand 1000Nm in any environment or useage scenario.

You clearly don't understand what the allowable load and ultimate load are. Or what a design failure point is.

Or what a clutch does. A clutch is specifically designed to transmit power from the engine to the transmission to prevent the failure of both. Trying driving a car without a clutch and see how long your drive train lasts!

And I never said anything about how long parts last anyways. Are you even reading what I wrote? I said if the allowable limit is 1000N.m and the factor of safety is 10, then the ultimate strength, the amount of torque a part can sustain before failure is 10 000N.m

You're not making sense. This is a physical property of the material. The factor of safety doesn't have anything to do with life span. Not directly. If a part has a factor of safety of 2, the same part with a factor of safety 10 won't last 5 times as long. It's 5 times as strong.

Strength and durability aren't synonyms. I'm not sure where you got this misconception. Perhaps from advertising? There is some relationship between the two, but it's not how things are designed. Wear and durability are separate considerations. You can think of it this way, an engine with a factor of safety of 3 won't last 100 miles without oil, but one with a factor of safety of 2 could last 1 000 000 miles with oil.

And so what if Tesla had problems with gear reductions. What does that have to do with tuning or the price of tea in China???

Oh, and I have way more experience with FMEA, albeit more to do with process than a specific part.

Still, what all of this boils down to is me telling you why Tesla can offer the ludicrous mode to customers, and you giving me a bunch of reasons why they can't! It's pretty clear who is wrong.

Perhaps what is more interesting is that you're going on a about the "real world". If you look at what Tesla is doing they are gathering "real world" data from customers and constantly using it to optimize car performance. Their rate of progress in this area is specifically why performance tuning outside the factory is likely the way of the past. Whether Tesla the company survives or not, the type of control EV's offer is pretty amazing. You can give up some life span offering ludicrious mode when you can gain it back by changing suspension characteristics on sections of road that are bad, or warming up the batteries based on usage patterns. Tesla's not special in this regard, it's just the natural evolution of the automobile. You can expect all cars to have the same features and capabilities in the future.

 

[SquidBonez]

I've said this numerous times. If you blow up a $6000 ATV screwing around it doesn't mean anything. You blow up a $60 000 car on the road and the consequences could easily cost you millions of dollars in terms of liability, lost wages, insurance etc.

Well the vast majority of cars people modify aren't $60,000. Most of the cars people modify are a few thousand bucks and are at least a few years old. Think 350zs and Civics. Yes, some people will buy the new cars and instantly get the tuned, but most don't. In 15 years it's not going to cost someone $60,000 to buy a 2019 Model 3 and hop it up.

I also put forth that the simplicity or lack of components in an electric means that catastrophic failure is more likely in an electric. There's just many more failure points in an ICE. The beauty of an electric is that you can isolate these components by use of software and fuses. But we are specifically talking about bypassing these fail safes in order to exceed factory recommendations.

The same applies on a gas car. Bypassing manufacturer fail safes, running parts harder and hotter, replacing them with better parts when they give. Electric cars will likely be more reliable, even when modified BECAUSE there is less to break, and the parts are very robust.

I will admit this is more based in logic that cold hard fact. So this is debatable. The problem is the cost of a battery is a significant part of the purchase price. And you really can't "repair" a battery so you're talking about potentially writing off $10K to drop a couple tenths of a second off the 0-60. IT DOESN'T MAKE SENSE.

That's only on the newest, most expensive luxury cars. A Nissan Leaf battery doesn't cost $10K, for example. And after a couple years of depreciation and a larger variety of electric cars available, battery prices will fall even further. Replacing the battery may cost as much as buying a new engine from a scrap yard for my 2001 Dakota (not much at all). And depending on the existing performance of the car when it's stock, and the extent of the modifications, performance improvements can be a bit more than "marginal".

I don't think I should have to say this again so please remember this. It's my opinion that this is most likely to happen. People are going to be less likely to risk a significant investment for marginal performance gains in the EV era. This is purely speculation on my part but I've given you tons of good reason why I believe this to be true.

What you're struggling to understand is that people ALREADY put money on the line to gain performance on their cars. You've given me reasons, but that doesn't mean they're good. Again, people are just beginning to modify electric cars ALREADY, imagine what they'll be doing when JEGS or Summit starts selling battery modules, controllers, and hop-up kits.

Totally, there's no reason to modify the power train. It doesn't happen now because it isn't necessary, and it especially won't happen in the future because of how EV's are designed.

I mean, I'm not going to say people won't put rockets on their cars, but again, people already are modifying electric vehicles TODAY with no aftermarket support. It isn't a matter IF people will modify their powertrains, it's HOW they will do it, which was the point of this thread to begin with. And I've already explained why someone would want to modify their powertrain, so I'm going to save both of us the trouble before I repeat myself, but yes, it would be necessary to modify the powertrain if you want more performance than what the stock components can provide. That isn't even something that is debatable, that's just how car modding works. Better parts = better performance. Pretty simple.

 

[furcifer]

Well the vast majority of cars people modify aren't $60,000. Most of the cars people modify are a few thousand bucks and are at least a few years old. Think 350zs and Civics. Yes, some people will buy the new cars and instantly get the tuned, but most don't. In 15 years it's not going to cost someone $60,000 to buy a 2019 Model 3 and hop it up.

Very true.

Unfortunately there's little progress to be made making cars quicker. It took Ford almost a hundred years to refine and produce a car that does 0-60 in under 3 seconds. EV's did that in a few years. That's what tuners have been striving for for 100 years. I would say top speed is a result of making ICE's quicker and not the end goal so it's not much of a tuning goal. And since it's more a function of drag than power, if it does head towards top speed it only proves my point.

The same applies on a gas car. Bypassing manufacturer fail safes, running parts harder and hotter, replacing them with better parts when they give. Electric cars will likely be more reliable, even when modified BECAUSE there is less to break, and the parts are very robust.

No they aren't fail safes. For the most part they are government imposed regulations when it comes to ICE's. That's a demonstrable fact.

Seriously what do you guys not get about the fact that designers and engineers don't have their hands tied when it comes to utilizing performance? Almost every engineer in Detroit got into cars because they love tuning them. You really need to get to the Woodward Dream Cruise once in your life. Remove the sanctions and give them freedom and you're going to end up with something close to what Tesla is doing.

That's only on the newest, most expensive luxury cars. A Nissan Leaf battery doesn't cost $10K, for example. And after a couple years of depreciation and a larger variety of electric cars available, battery prices will fall even further

Nonsense. First the Leaf battery is useless for tuning. Second, ask anyone on this forum if they would buy a used battery. Batteries for tuning will only be good when they are new. That's a demonstrable fact.

I doubt if battery prices will fall anytime soon. The fact is people want similar range from their batteries as they get from ICE's. Call them spoiled. Technologically we're a far ways away from providing a battery people want for their daily driver. Capacity has to plateau before prices drop. Honestly I hope this happens sooner than later but I'm certainly not going to make a prediction based on this.

What you're struggling to understand is that people ALREADY put money on the line to gain performance on their cars. You've given me reasons, but that doesn't mean they're good. Again, people are just beginning to modify electric cars ALREADY, imagine what they'll be doing when JEGS or Summit starts selling battery modules, controllers, and hop-up kits.

And they don't need to now that manufacturers are doing it for them. The proof is in tasting the pudding, or so Iv'e heard.

I mean, I'm not going to say people won't put rockets on their cars, but again, people already are modifying electric vehicles TODAY with no aftermarket support. It isn't a matter IF people will modify their powertrains, it's HOW they will do it, which was the point of this thread to begin with. And I've already explained why someone would want to modify their powertrain, so I'm going to save both of us the trouble before I repeat myself, but yes, it would be necessary to modify the powertrain if you want more performance than what the stock components can provide. That isn't even something that is debatable, that's just how car modding works. Better parts = better performance. Pretty simple.

BS. I want a 1200hp Caravan. Where are my parts? Hmmmmmm?

You only think it's simple because there's a market for them now. Tesla is already destroying that market. When other manufacturers get into the game it will be eroded every further. No market, no parts. Pretty simple.

 

[billvon]

Seriously what do you guys not get about the fact that designers and engineers don't have their hands tied when it comes to utilizing performance?

What do you not get about the fact that product managers optimize things other than performance, like price point, reliability, style, warranty service risks and crashworthiness? You seem to think that design involves a bunch of engineers sitting around with no other goals than "make this thing go as fast as possible, nothing else matters." The real world isn't like that.

 

[SquidBonez]

Very true.

Unfortunately there's little progress to be made making cars quicker. It took Ford almost a hundred years to refine and produce a car that does 0-60 in under 3 seconds. EV's did that in a few years. That's what tuners have been striving for for 100 years. I would say top speed is a result of making ICE's quicker and not the end goal so it's not much of a tuning goal. And since it's more a function of drag than power, if it does head towards top speed it only proves my point.

The only EVs that do 0-60 in under 3 seconds are all ridiculously expensive. And once again, not all EVs will be able to 0-60 in under 3 seconds in the future. And even if they did, that doesn't make modifications irrelevant. They sell performance modifications for even the highest level of supercars that already do 0-60 in under 3 seconds.

No they aren't fail safes. For the most part they are government imposed regulations when it comes to ICE's. That's a demonstrable fact.

This is just false. There are many failsafes in a modern ICE car, the most obvious being limp-mode also known as engine failsafe mode.

Seriously what do you guys not get about the fact that designers and engineers don't have their hands tied when it comes to utilizing performance?

Have you stopped to consider that maybe, just maybe, it's not everyone else who is wrong? Try listening to what other people are telling you. You're on a forum for electric vehicle enthusiasts trying to argue that there is no reason to modify electric vehicles. You shouldn't be surprised.

Nonsense. First the Leaf battery is useless for tuning. Second, ask anyone on this forum if they would buy a used battery. Batteries for tuning will only be good when they are new. That's a demonstrable fact.

First of all, you don't "tune" a battery. Secondly, look at how many EV conversions are using salvaged Tesla modules, Kia Soul Modules, and Chevy Volt modules. You're just wrong.

I doubt if battery prices will fall anytime soon.

They already are. And they have been.

And they don't need to now that manufacturers are doing it for them. The proof is in tasting the pudding, or so Iv'e heard.

If I replace my stock motor and battery with higher-rated components than what the manufacturer provided, the car would go faster. Yes, there will still be a place for an aftermarket.

You only think it's simple because there's a market for them now. Tesla is already destroying that market. When other manufacturers get into the game it will be eroded every further. No market, no parts. Pretty simple.

I literally gave you examples earlier in this thread. People modding Zero Motorcycles, the Electric GT Tesla, people hopping up Leaf inverters, among other things. Doesn't matter what automakers do. If you replace stock parts with better parts, you improve performance. The aftermarket exists with the sole purpose of providing parts that exceed the performance of the stock parts. There is no reason why this will change in the future. It seems your argument revolves around the fact that SOME electric cars are already fast so why would anyone make them faster? A Dodge Demon is even quicker than a Tesla and people are still modifying them for even more power (stock 840hp, tuned to up to 1500hp). Or how about you take a look at Tesla Racing Channel? The guy races a stripped down P100D that - for the moment - is stock powertrain wise but he's working with 057 Technology to modify the powertrain. The point is that just because a car is fast stock doesn't mean people will just leave it stock. That has never been and will never be the case. We've already established that it's possible, that there is a demand, and that people have already begun the early stages of doing it. So what is there left to argue? Nothing.

 

[furcifer]

The only EVs that do 0-60 in under 3 seconds are all ridiculously expensive. And once again, not all EVs will be able to 0-60 in under 3 seconds in the future.

Then people won't tune them. You don't seem to understand the tuning game. Not every car gets tuned for a reason.

And even if they did, that doesn't make modifications irrelevant. They sell performance modifications for even the highest level of supercars that already do 0-60 in under 3 seconds.

BS. Link to Chrion aftermarket exhaust or stfu.

This is just false. There are many failsafes in a modern ICE car, the most obvious being limp-mode also known as engine failsafe mode.

Um no. They have nothing to do with performance.

Have you stopped to consider that maybe, just maybe, it's not everyone else who is wrong? Try listening to what other people are telling you. You're on a forum for electric vehicle enthusiasts trying to argue that there is no reason to modify electric vehicles. You shouldn't be surprised.

There's no right or wrong when we are just speculating. Telling me the safety factor in a car has something to do with durability is though.
If you knew the answer already, and knew how the forum would respond then you're just trolling. You're not a troll are you? (fyi I know you posted this in reddit 6 months ago so be careful)

First of all, you don't "tune" a battery.

Read for comprehension. I NEVER SAID YOU TUNE A BATTERY I SAID AN OLD BATTERY WAS NO GOOD FOR TUNING.

Stop strawmanning me and read what I wrote.

They already are. And they have been.

Nonsense. The new Tesla batteries are more expensive than the originals. Look it up.

If I replace my stock motor and battery with higher-rated components than what the manufacturer provided, the car would go faster. Yes, there will still be a place for an aftermarket.

When someone produces an electric motor to replace the one in a Tesla then we can talk. Until then you're just talking out of your ass!

I literally gave you examples earlier in this thread. People modding Zero Motorcycles, the Electric GT Tesla, people hopping up Leaf inverters, among other things.

Yes a huge market. I'm on the list to get the Fall catalog.

Doesn't matter what automakers do.

lol

If you replace stock parts with better parts, you improve performance.

Absolutely. If there are better aftermarket parts. There aren't, and in all likelihood there never will be.

The aftermarket exists with the sole purpose of providing parts that exceed the performance of the stock parts.

Nope. The aftermarket exists to replace OEM parts with cheaper alternatives. That's what NAPA and Parts Boys do.

You're confusing aftermarket parts with performance parts.

There is no reason why this will change in the future. It seems your argument revolves around the fact that SOME electric cars are already fast so why would anyone make them faster?

The best selling electric cars ever produced are not "some cars".

The premise that anyone is going to engineer and manufacture a car that can't compete with the "best selling ever" is ludicrous.

A Dodge Demon is even quicker than a Tesla and people are still modifying them for even more power (stock 840hp, tuned to up to 1500hp).

I never said performance mods on ICE were going to stop. Duh, they're still super inefficient!

Or how about you take a look at Tesla Racing Channel? The guy races a stripped down P100D that - for the moment - is stock powertrain wise but he's working with 057 Technology to modify the powertrain. The point is that just because a car is fast stock doesn't mean people will just leave it stock. That has never been and will never be the case. We've already established that it's possible, that there is a demand, and that people have already begun the early stages of doing it. So what is there left to argue? Nothing.

Why wouldn't it be a stock power train? Duh. Is this really something you're just realizing? I've told you exactly why this is from an engineering standpoint.

Just to be clear I'm talking about the majority of the performance market that includes daily drivers and NOT TRACK CARS.

The track is different. It's not insured, it's not covered with liability, They only care if stuff lasts a day, and rebuild the car every week. They fabricate their own parts. Tons of differences.

I can't see the track and racing ever coming to an end. And I certainly hope it never does! I know Tesla is gathering a ton of information from their production cars, but the racetrack should remain a place where ideas a tested and proven. But that's what it is, a testing grounds. It's not "modification". If you want to expand the topic to include the kinds of things you might see at the track then please do so.

 

[furcifer]

What do you not get about the fact that product managers optimize things other than performance, like price point, reliability, style, warranty service risks and crashworthiness? You seem to think that design involves a bunch of engineers sitting around with no other goals than "make this thing go as fast as possible, nothing else matters." The real world isn't like that.

I don't care about the real world, I'm talking about actual car manufacturing that goes on inside an assembly plant.

You seem to forget, the entire premise of this thread is that the motors are specifically over powered and under utilized. I'm absolutely positive this only happens now with ICE's because of government regulations. The idea that the design teams have no idea what the potential of a motor is, but "Bob's Garage" in Tulsa does is laughable. Before a motor goes into production there are teams testing prototypes for performance!

Tesla has been rushed to get cars to customers so some of this has been neglected. But we are definitely seeing it's not forgotten.

The best you guys can come up with is the Leaf, which has a tiny battery that couldn't utilize the motor potential. I doubt this was done in the name of economy and efficiency, but if it was Tesla is proving this to be a bad move. They have many days of orders and from what I can tell Nissan can't sell the Leaf's they have.

Once a car company establishes something as a standard feature, whether that's power windows, heated seated or insane modes, they never disappear. All the "but but buts" in the world isn't going to change that.

That's about it in a nutshell.

 

[billvon]

I don't care about the real world

I guess that's where we differ. I design things that work in the real world.

I'm talking about actual car manufacturing that goes on inside an assembly plant.

And I am talking about the engineering that happens BEFORE the car gets assembled. That doesn't happen in an assembly plant. Despite what happens in movies, the car isn't engineered as it's going through assembly. There isn't a guy there with a wrench at some point who says "you know what? I'm going to give this car my all and DOUBLE its horsepower!

You seem to forget, the entire premise of this thread is that the motors are specifically over powered and under utilized. I'm absolutely positive this only happens now with ICE's because of government regulations. The idea that the design teams have no idea what the potential of a motor is, but "Bob's Garage" in Tulsa does is laughable.

And your idea that Bob's Garage has the same goals as GM product management is even funnier.

Once a car company establishes something as a standard feature, whether that's power windows, heated seated or insane modes, they never disappear.

Front bench seats are disappearing. So are wing mirrors, and fullsize spares (sometimes spares, period) manual handbrakes, external radio antennas (even though, without a doubt, they work better) and pop-up headlights. The first-gen Tesla roadster had a manual transmission that improved performance; that's gone.

Features disappear all the time. That's progress.

 

[SquidBonez]

Then people won't tune them. You don't seem to understand the tuning game. Not every car gets tuned for a reason.

You obviously don't understand the "tuning game", then. If it can be made faster people will do it.

BS. Link to Chrion aftermarket exhaust or stfu.

You're nitpicking now. The Chiron is obviously an extremely expensive limited production car. But there is an aftermarket for the
Ferrari 458, McLaren 720s, Lamborghini Huracan, etc, all of which do 0-60 in under 3 seconds. Use Google.

Um no. They have nothing to do with performance.

You said failsafe. That's a failsafe.

There's no right or wrong when we are just speculating.

It's not really speculation when it's already happening. The speculation here is how it will be done in the future.

If you knew the answer already, and knew how the forum would respond then you're just trolling. You're not a troll are you? (fyi I know you posted this in reddit 6 months ago so be careful)

"Be careful?" Am I supposed to be scared? I'm only looking to get information on a topic that interests me. What's wrong with that?

Read for comprehension. I NEVER SAID YOU TUNE A BATTERY I SAID AN OLD BATTERY WAS NO GOOD FOR TUNING.

Stop strawmanning me and read what I wrote.

Just clarifying. And if that were true, people wouldn't be using salvaged Tesla/Volt/Soul modules. So, again, wrong.

Nonsense. The new Tesla batteries are more expensive than the originals. Look it up.

Yeah no kidding. A brand new battery is more expensive than a battery of an older car? Shocking. But overall, the price of lithium ion batteries have been dropping. https://www.iflscience.com/technology/battery-costs-drop-even-faster-electric-car-sales-continue-rise/

When someone produces an electric motor to replace the one in a Tesla then we can talk. Until then you're just talking out of your ass!

Nice gate-keeping. If I somehow took the motor out of a Nissan Leaf and replaced it with a Tesla motor, then that would improve the performance. If I somehow got my hands on Rimac motors and put them in a Tesla, the Tesla would be more powerful. Just like if you took the engine out a Miata and dropped a Hellcat engine in it (like someone recently did), it would make the car faster. It's pretty simple. Replacing a motor with a more powerful motor makes the car more powerful. Very simple.

Yes a huge market. I'm on the list to get the Fall catalog.

The whole purpose of this thread is to speculate about FUTURE modifications. Of course there isn't much of a market yet because 99% of vehicles are still ICEs. Electric cars (in their current form) have only been around for about 2 decades or so and are still limited in numbers. I thought this was pretty obvious but I gave you too much credit.

Absolutely. If there are better aftermarket parts. There aren't, and in all likelihood there never will be.

Weren't you the same person who said that electric cars are going to keep getting better? Technology will improve. But even using modern technology, it's possible to improve the performance of an electric car. Not every electric car is fitted with the most powerful electric motor possible, just like we don't put 500 horsepower engines in commuter cars. On top of that, most motors can take way more power than they are provided assuming the rest of the powertrain can handle it and stay cool. If you replaced the controller, battery, inverters, whatever, of a Tesla and then upgraded the cooling system, you would have a more powerful car (that's what people have been doing with Zero motorcycles). Hell, even the Model 3 Performance and the Model 3 Long Range use the same powertrain, the only difference being software, cooling, and brakes.

Nope. The aftermarket exists to replace OEM parts with cheaper alternatives. That's what NAPA and Parts Boys do.

When most people say "aftermarket", they mean performance. You know what I meant.

The best selling electric cars ever produced are not "some cars".

Out of how many electric cars currently in production, how many of them are fast?

The premise that anyone is going to engineer and manufacture a car that can't compete with the "best selling ever" is ludicrous.

Not everybody is competing in the high performance luxury sedan market. Not everyone is building an electric performance car.

I never said performance mods on ICE were going to stop. Duh, they're still super inefficient!

Yeah, and the tradition of modding is continuing on to EVs.

Why wouldn't it be a stock power train? Duh. Is this really something you're just realizing?

My point by mentioning that was that people are working to modify electric cars.

Just to be clear I'm talking about the majority of the performance market that includes daily drivers and NOT TRACK CARS.

That's what I was talking about as well.

 

[furcifer]

And I am talking about the engineering that happens BEFORE the car gets assembled. That doesn't happen in an assembly plant. Despite what happens in movies, the car isn't engineered as it's going through assembly.

True, it tends to be pretty rare to have in house design at an assembly plant.

Features disappear all the time. That's progress.

Not performance, which is what we are talking about. You'd be right if we were talking about wood grain paneling and curb feelers.