hillslayer@
100 W
Been running Gulf wax for 3 years with mid -drives, my drive trains hardly ever show any wear.
Mid drive chain efficiency and longevity tips
- Thread starter neptronix
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scianiac
10 kW
- Joined
- Oct 24, 2018
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The chart is from Zero Friction Cycling, he has a writeup on all his testing and a youtube channel.
I mean it's pretty obvious from the testing that the EP additives work better than pure wax, yes pure wax does work decently but as with any lubricant the issue is pressure, oil works just amazing as a lubricant until you exceed the pressure at which the film breaks through and then you get metal on metal contact, same with wax except it being a solid that takes more pressure but you can still do it and that is when EP (extreme pressure) additives work. I assume you also run straight mineral oil in your engine because all that other stuff is just "marketing BS".
I mean you can also just make the wax yourself, mine is based on canning wax (gulf wax) with PTFE and MoS2 added based roughly on ZFC's original recipe (which is probably what that "hot tub" wax posted earlier is) from all those years ago although I've added a couple of extra additives, one for wear and one for corrosion inhibition. But if I was to remake it I would use WS2 instead of MoS2 and probably try some other stuff but not much of a point as my current wax makes my chains last forever at the rate I use them.
Hi scianiac,
Would this be the right WS2 to add to the Gulf Wax?
Would this be the right WS2 to add to the Gulf Wax?
MICROLUBROL 1 oz Tungsten DISULFIDE Sulfide WS2 Powder Ultra FINE ½ Micron 0.5 µ: Amazon.com: Industrial & Scientific
MICROLUBROL 1 oz Tungsten DISULFIDE Sulfide WS2 Powder Ultra FINE ½ Micron 0.5 µ: Amazon.com: Industrial & Scientific
www.amazon.com
scianiac
10 kW
- Joined
- Oct 24, 2018
- Messages
- 700
Yeah that looks like the right stuff, the only important factor is how fine it is, finer is better and that's pretty fine. From my understanding the WS2 is kind of best of PTFE and MoS2. PTFE is a good friction modifier but is just kind of OK as a EP modifier, MoS2 is a really good EP modifier but kind of crap as a friction modifier unless under high pressure. PTFE is slippery but gets smooshed out of the way easier, MoS2 only works when it's squished hard enough to get the plates to slip so at lower loads it doesn't so much of anything or even has negative effects in the case of lubricating plastics for instance. WS2 has better friction properties but the same exceptional EP performance as MoS2. It's possible that some PTFE may also still improve friction a bit particularly at lower loads but honeslty I don't think we really care about some fraction of a watt, we want wear perforamnce and the WS2 does that very well. Just make sure to stir well as it will settle eventually, it's very fine but also very heavy.
Here is one of the early modified wax recipes I found just to give you some idea of how much to add:
"The recipe for the UltraFast lube is surprisingly simple: 1lb of household paraffin wax, 5g of pure PTFE (Teflon) powder, and 1g of pure molybdenum disulfide (MoS2)."
Here is one of the early modified wax recipes I found just to give you some idea of how much to add:
"The recipe for the UltraFast lube is surprisingly simple: 1lb of household paraffin wax, 5g of pure PTFE (Teflon) powder, and 1g of pure molybdenum disulfide (MoS2)."
Look what I found in the basement! An old Hamilton Beach percolator coffee maker with a stainless body. It is 5" dia at the bottom. Max capacity around 2 quarts. Seems ideal for a chain waxer! I also found a PID controller and SSR from an old project which will precisely control the temperature of its 750W heater.
lnanek
10 kW
That's handy. The chemical reaction the chain stripper uses needs a precise temperature to convert grease to wax. Just need to figure out their recipe next and you'd never need to degrease ever again. 
Chalo
100 TW
I can't find spermaceti for my chain waxing cauldron anymore. Does anybody here get good results from beef tallow?
Went to Dollar Tree and came back with these 2 no scent white candle in a glass jar $1.50 ea. Ea jar weighs 14.5 oz. They have a big selection of candles but these seem like the most bang for the buck.
I did order 16 oz of Gulf wax and 1 oz of WS2 which should get here in a few days.
Plan is to practice with the candle wax on an old chain (after degreasing) in the PID coffee maker, before doing a new chain with the Gulf wax + WS2.
I did order 16 oz of Gulf wax and 1 oz of WS2 which should get here in a few days.
Plan is to practice with the candle wax on an old chain (after degreasing) in the PID coffee maker, before doing a new chain with the Gulf wax + WS2.
Attachments
Are you referring to Strip Chip? edit: For new chains only, not used chains with oil lubes.The chemical reaction the chain stripper uses needs a precise temperature to convert grease to wax. Just need to figure out their recipe next and you'd never need to degrease ever again.
Oz Cycle has something similar DIY with Stearic acid. Anyone tried it?
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I was unable to find the chart. Many of the pdf's do not load for me on my PDF reader on Mac. I get a red pop up "ivalid PDF structure"
Anyone else have this problem?
Got the PID controller wired up and working. I've been testing with water and a kitchen thermometer, which indicate it tracks within +/- 1 deg C.
Yup, got me interested too. I use up too many chains and freewheels with my BBSHD over the last 10,000 miles. Trying some Mspeedwax. Must be a common thing on Amazon as they even show a 1.5 qt stainless crock pot ($14) to go with it.
ZeroEm
10 MW
Have 9000 miles on my original chain. It has only known Gulf wax. These guys are over thinking it. Just get some Gulf wax melt it and put your chain in for a nice hot bath. Not sure all the stripping and adding additives are worth the time and money. Don't have a mid drive or stand on my peddles.
@ZeroEm I saw your earlier post and thought that was crazy but fantastic. I have ~10,200 miles on my BBSHD (no issues) and have been through 3 or 4 freewheels and 5 or 6 chains. The dollars are low for a wax system so I figured I have to try this! .....oh! and I usually lubricate my chain with Muc-Off Dry every 100-200 miles.....
@Chalo - You mentioned no where else in industry do they use wax on a chain. I agree, but they usually have the option to run in an oil bath thus getting years of life from a chain. Even automobile timing chains can last 200-300,000 miles running in oil an option we don't have.
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Is stainless the outer housing only? The removable inside pot is some kind of ceramic?
Correct and correct!
hillslayer@
100 W
The only stripping needed is first time on a New chain, purple power is all I use for that
I use a bath of lacquer thinner. Much like brake cleaner but non-aerosol and cheaper. Huge degreasing qualities, no residue and dries almost instantly. I keep a small tub of it in the garage for all projects, not just bicycle chains.
hillslayer@
100 W
Try purple power heated up, best degreaser l have seen totally fixes gummed up lifters.
Next time I'm t O'Reilly's I'll have to pick up a gallon and give it a try. Is something like lacquer thinner and brake cleaner even available in CA with the high VOCs?
hillslayer@
100 W
Lacquer thinner is hard to get . I think they may have banned lacquer paint.
ZeroEm
10 MW
Lol, had no idea waxing was so popular. Thought maybe a few. Started with it because it was clean. Don't want to mislead anyone, most of my miles are at 15 mph and don't push hard on the peddles, run in next to top gear most of the time. I'm not hard on chains but the wax keeps my chain quite. When I can hear it, time for wax job.
scianiac
10 kW
- Joined
- Oct 24, 2018
- Messages
- 700
But can you buy gasoline in CA? I used to use proper solvents but last time I just used gasoline first and then rinsed it with a little acetone as the gas does a great job of removing the grease but does leave some residue. I feel like I've seen "just use some gasoline" about a million times from old timers and always thought no I'll use the proper stuff but they do have a point it is very cheap and very effective, also very flammable but only slightly moreso than most other solvents.
After seeing silca's (silca makes chain wax) recommendation on making sure to use a "balanced" degreaser I went down a rabbit hole. As it turns out it's not that hard to find which cleaners are safe in terms of possible hydrogen embrittlement although I have no idea if that is a real issue in this case or not. Most heavy degreasers are basic so it isn't an issue and the MSDS will tell you the pH and if it has any acids or bases. I think avoiding very strong bases if you don't need then is also a good idea.
Purple power seems to be a pretty good choice, it's basic but from Sodium Metasilicate not something like Super Clean that has Sodium hydroxide. Although looking at the project farm degreaser test I'm going to try Oil Eater next. It performed 2nd best in the grease test after Super Clean and way way better than Purple Power in spite having almost the same ingredients, only the surfactant being different, might just have a higher concentration.
I think truely balanced degreasers probably perform poorly (like the aircraft simple green in the project farm test which is one of those) and at that point you might as well just use Dawn, which is great in some applications but not very good at removing chain grease even with a hot ultrasonic cleaner. I'm not really worried about the very small or no real corrosion from a basic cleaner assuming it doesn't have a very strong base.
I don't know that any of this is that important for cleaning chains but maybe interesting or useful to somebody as it was to me.
Chalo
100 TW
Melted wax is a solvent for oily substances. Use a little more time and agitation to float out the actual lubricant, and you won't have to rely on a toxin bath.
I guess it makes sense that someone who uses an unnecessary and labor intensive chain lubrication method would want to add unnecessary and labor intensive steps to the process, but come on.
There's always multiple ways to look at something. My "Toxic" bath has lasted many years with me just adding a bit of solvent now and then. Solids drop to the bottom below the screen. Nothing dumped down the drain or ground. Last time I tried several of the "friendly" degreasers I washed gallons of contaminated water down the drain just rinsing and getting the part free of the degreaser. I maintain three older vehicles and two older motorcycles. Cleaning parts is a must.
Not sure why you are so dead set against waxing a chain @Chalo ? No negative reports and it sounds interesting. The geek in me wants to check it out and the dollars are cheap.
