Monzilla - BURNED IN LIPO FIRE AUGUST 11

[Floont]

I'm pretty sure they use LiFePO4. But the frame is what's great Ping packs should be very safe. I hope you are well now, Floont!

I and my family and cat are now well after the LiPo fire that took my house, bike and almost everything I owned..

It may be unreasonable of me to stay away from LiPo for the remainder of my days, but it has cost me dearly and endangered not only my life, but those who I love. I vow never to go back to them.

I just want to know is LiFePO4 safe?

FA

 

[Andje]

fundamentally floont, the only thing that can make yourself and family TOTALLY safe is charging and storing the bike in a safe location like a small concrete structure away from your home/garage.
There arent any non flammable batteries, just ones that are better/worse in circumstance A/B.
My appartment burnt to the ground last year in a NON EBIKE RELATED incident; the stove wires in the wall got munched by a mouse most likely. The batteries I had burned with the apartment, and the fact is they were a huge source of fuel for the fire even though they didnt start the fire. I would say that few people mention the fact that even just sitting there and not failing, batteries are like having tanks of gasoline/bombs in their living rooms depending on the chemistry.
The battery chemistry you mention is safer; it is heavier and less energy dense, but it is less likely to burst into flame in a failing situation because it doesnt generate hydrogen gas as it breaks down. But, it would still smolder and burn if destroyed in the right way. If you use google and search endless sphere for videos of batteries being destroyed in different situations you will find most of the popular chemistries in most situations (overcharge, puncture, etc.).
The totally safe solution would also be safe for lipo is basically what im saying. Waterproof concrete bunker imho. Cheap (probably under 100 bucks if you are enterprising) just make a 5 sided box out of concrete and you could slide it in and just use a tarp for the door. Doubles as a waterproof storage location. Extension cord out to charger when needed. Doesnt need to be bigger then the bike, takes up just a corner of a yard. And TOTALLY safe.

 

[pdf]

There is nothing that can make your family totally safe. I have a gas water heater in the basement. Last year, a home in my town was blown to bits by a gas leak. No survivors. I have two cars in my garage, tanks full of gasoline. I have a set of shelves with propane, ethanol, toluene, you name it. Is that safe? I must think so.

In truth, we don't actually know how safe the batteries we are using are, as far as I can tell. In most cases they are being imported or drop shipped directly from China, and I don't believe they are tested to any standard recognized in Europe or the US. I I am wrong, someone correct me. I have only two types of batteries on my bikes in my garage. One is LiMn from ebikes.ca and the other is LiFePO4 from erider.com. I have talked to both of these vendors extensively on the phone and trust them and their products. That is about the best I can do. Both vendors have batteries that are 2 and 3 times what you will pay for whole batteries drop shipped from China. Is it worth it? I have no idea, but I have seen a battery fire personally and it is pretty scary to think of that in your house. In about 15 minutes, you'd be dead. I never leave the chargers plugged in at night or when I am away from home. That is probably overkill but it is peace of mind for me and easy enough to pull off.

You buy your ticket and you take your chances. I have tried to minimize risk, but I realize there is inherent risk in everything. On the other hand, people have burnt down there houses charging batteries in tools and laptops. There is no "totally safe". If the risk however is lower than the risk I take driving across town with my family for a picnic, it is in the ballpark of what is acceptable to me.

 

[jkbrigman]

Floont;

I have heard and read that Headways, LiMn and LiFePo4 are relatively safe compared to LiPo. I think you would do well with any of those chemistries. I hear good things about the PING batteries. I like the extruded aluminum enclosure that the LiMn batteries come in. Although the ends are plastic it would take a hot fire to burn through the aluminum.

Since your experience, I now:
- installed a smoke detector in the garage
- charge my LiPo in a cheap charcoal grill
- have a smoke detector installed in the grill
- never charge unattended
- balance charge at least once a week

I'm planning a more modular aluminum enclosure for the LiPo packs to handle all potential damage and impacts. (From the beginning, my battery bag has been padded with strips of foam rubber for shock absorption.)

Good luck Floont and let us know what you end up doing.

JKB

 

[dnmun]

yes, lifepo4 is safe. it doesn't go into thermal runaway and burn when over charged.

you need to use a BMS to keep it balanced and prevent it from over charging and over discharging.

a lipo BMS would have prevented the fire you had since it would have prevented the cells from overcharging.

but at the time you were building that battery we did not have a good source of the lipo BMSs. that problem has been solved now since agnius found the guys at Bestechpower.

i have built several lipo packs with them and over charged them to test the BMS and it always turns off the charging when one cell gets above the HVC limit. that is how the BMS makes the charging of lipo safe.

the hobby king lipo also can have defects and short out internally and that can cause them to go into thermal runaway too. but mostly it appears the problem is from overcharging and shorts.

 

[jkbrigman]

yes, lifepo4 is safe. it doesn't go into thermal runaway and burn when over charged. you need to use a BMS to keep it balanced and prevent ti from over charging and over discharging.
...
i have built several lipo packs with them and over charged them to test the BMS and it always turns off the charging when one cell gets above the HVC limit. that is how the BMS makes the charging of lipo safe. the hobby king lipo also can have defects and short out internally and that can cause them to go into thermal runaway too. but mostly it appears the problem is from overcharging and shorts.

Hey dmun - I was looking at their HCX-D131 8S "Li-Ion" BMS:
http://www.bestechpower.com/666v18spcmbmspcbforli-ionli-polymerbatterypack/PCB-D131.html
They use "stock photos" so you can't see the specific item but overall their stuff seems OK.

I just now found your thread where you built a 14S pack with their BMS:
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=54257

THANK YOU for posting!

 

[rich43]

I use a lipo fire bag like this one: http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__4134__lithium_polymer_charge_pack_18x22cm_sack.html
I read some comments on there that they work good, would like to hear your opinions as well though.

You could build a small shed at the bottom of your garden and charge your lipos in there, if that burns down, it could cheaply be replaced.

 

[1KW]

I use a lipo fire bag like this one: http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__4134__lithium_polymer_charge_pack_18x22cm_sack.html
I read some comments on there that they work good, would like to hear your opinions as well though.

You could build a small shed at the bottom of your garden and charge your lipos in there, if that burns down, it could cheaply be replaced.

Yep exactly, BUT some of us have strict HOA that will not allow sheds

Also, in the middle of a hot summer the shed is going to be extremely hot.

I bought one of those mini grilles such as these

and store a lipo in a lipo bag inside of one. I will also put a sand bag on the top rack of it, and the lipo in the bottom. I will get one for each of my 6s8ah zippys.

 

[rich43]

I use a lipo fire bag like this one: http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__4134__lithium_polymer_charge_pack_18x22cm_sack.html
I read some comments on there that they work good, would like to hear your opinions as well though.

You could build a small shed at the bottom of your garden and charge your lipos in there, if that burns down, it could cheaply be replaced.

Yep exactly, BUT some of us have strict HOA that will not allow sheds

Also, in the middle of a hot summer the shed is going to be extremely hot.

I bought one of those mini grilles such as these

and store a lipo in a lipo bag inside of one. I will also put a sand bag on the top rack of it, and the lipo in the bottom. I will get one for each of my 6s8ah zippys.

That's really funny, you could BBQ some sausages using the heat from the flaming lipo's, I wouldn't eat them though!
Seriously though, that's a very good idea Do you store that thing indoors as it would not be waterproof.

Wish I had some sort of outdoor metal fireproof container that is waterproof and big enough for power supply, charger, maybe 6x6s lipos and has some way for a mains wire to get out without water getting in.

 

[heathyoung]

Meter box?

Not sure what they are made of in the US, but here they are heavy gauge metal boxes with a hinged lid, and knockouts for cables. Would fit all of your charging needs.

 

[Floont]

How is your cat doing, Floont?

He is still alive but suffers from the affect of the smoke inhalation. He is old for a cat (15 years), but he lumbers around just fine.

Thank you for asking!

FA

 

[veloman]

The mini bbq grill idea is a good one I think. If you must charge inside, that is probably the cheapest and easiest solution for protection.

I have a heavy steel sheet against the wall behind my battery location. Tile floor. I don't use lipo that much, mostly lifepo4 at the moment.