Ebike road race bike: Questions and build info

No, I'm good. I was trying to hype your event up when I heard it was a race. I was talking to a lot of my ICE sponsors and contacts to see if I could bring in some sponsorship not just for myself, but for the event in general. A lot of them were really interested at first, now they've told me that they don't want to be associated with this event, they might get with me on the next one. Like I said, I could care less at this point and just want to ride at the event.
 
Ok, got rear rim situation sorted out and now have 2 20" wheels laced up. Gonna dry fit the xtracycle extension to both frame choices and see what options that gives me. I have to knock off the rim brake mounts from the extension to get the 20" tire to fit. The fat part of the tire comes just at the most narrowest point of the mounts. I keep getting torn between working on the frame and working on the electronics. :lol: Hopefully tonight I can get the xtracycle mounted up and do some trouble shooting on the electronics.
 
I've settle on using the Tidal Force frame. I had figured that I would just strip the other bike down to the frame, blast it, paint it, and add new components to it. But when I started trying to take it apart, I found that not only were the parts rusty, but they were rusted in place. Just stripping it down is going to take some major work and time, which I am running out of. So I'm working on mounting the xtracycle frame to the TF frame. I just won't weld to the frame. I don't know how it will hold up to race conditions, so I'm going to flog it once i get power to the bike and see what it does. Maybe I will end up just running a regular length frame if it doesn't hold up, and have fun wheelieing everywhere. :lol: Now that I have made a final decision on which frame I'm using, it makes it little easier to get dirty on the frame. I hacked off a mounting point last night to fit the xtracycle on. After doing that, I'm not so shy about scratching the paint anymore. :p I also was able to order the 20" forks, now that I know which steerer I'm going to need. That will take a few more days to get here. But, I'm still waiting on my front rotor and caliper set anyways. Apparently the person I bought the rotors from on ebay didn't actually have them and ordered them after I won the bid, and the person I bought the caliper set from "forgot" that he didn't send them to me after I won his bid. :roll: So I'm still waiting on the front stoppers. But I really would like to at least get a rolling chassis. I still need to see how the pedals are going to be with the shorter wheels. At this point, they look like the just might clear the ground. But that will definately change once I go with the shorter fork. I might have to cut down some cranks. I know there are some shorter cranks, I just don't know how much more money I can currently put into this build at this time.
I've been reading the Pike's Peak thread and I'm thinking that this bike could be good for that race. Since it's being built, I want to try to do as many races as possible with it. I'm thinking with the right gearing, this might be cool to take down to the local drag strip. It's only 1/8th mile, so it should be pretty fun. I've taken my harley set up in roadrace mode and beat some stretched sportbikes. I think it would be hilarious to beat anyone on a sportbike, even if he is a noob rider. :twisted:
 
Ok, 'nother wrench in the mix. With the hub I have, I can't use the Recumpence 130mm BCD rear adapter w/ hex bolts and sprocket bolts to drive it from the left side. Anyone have any good suggestions on doing a right side drive in conjunction with the pedal drive? Once again, I'm searching through the nonhub section, but finding a lot of bad pic links.
 
for serial right side drive Jay, (which e-tard & myself will be running this round for certain) all you need is a freewheel you can open up with a die grinder to slip over a free-hub.

I am using el-cheapo dicta 16t freewheels & am making a locking "key" to secure it to the free hub out of a butcherd cassett. I don't have any good photo's of the set up, & I know etard is holding his breath waiting for my solution also.

this thread has the absolute good info in it.
we can broach a white industries freewheel to fit a freehub & adapt to that.(at $80 a pop) my solution is a bit more wallet friendly.
pg 1 will give you the concept.
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=13532&hilit=fitting+freewheels+ona+free+hub
pg 25 shows the custom guide bushing i made for the project
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=13532&hilit=fitting+freewheels+ona+free+hub&start=360
drew jet has this set up on his mountain bike...chat whith him on the performance.
chainlines will be tight but I have made them work before a few times.
 
I haven't gone through those links yet, I will in a second. But I just wanted to add that in this case it makes a difference, I don't care if the pedals drive the motor, I just don't want the motor to drive the pedals.
 
Hmmm, all of that is waaaay out of my capabilities. :oops: That looked like it was a lot of talk about lathe/cnc work or something. I'm trying to build this in my carport. :lol: I do appreciate the directions to it, but I honestly didn't even understand most of that machining talk. I get the gist of it, but well out of my ability or resources.
 
it is a little easyer then the thread implys Jay,

all you need is a pr of freewheels that will slip fit over a freehub...I'll cut the locking keys & send you a pr...you can epoxy em right onto the freewheel with a schmeer of JB weld. I'll follow up with some photos...(damn my roof!)

then its a simple sprocket adapter to mount onto a 16t freewheel. (i have a few of those already cut out in 5.25 kart pattern BTW) this will be totaly independent & single speed set up for the pedals.

check with drewjet...we are mimicing the set up bastardising a casset with a 4-1/4 angle grinder & a BFH! :wink:
photo's would be so clear right now.
 
Jay, with the Nuvinci you need to do a right side drive. There is not room for 2 freewhweels like on my mountainbike. However it is a simple fix. This is how I intend to do it.

Remove the threaded adapter that is installed on the Nuvinci, it has a circlip holding it in place. Take a plate of steel 1/8 to 3/16 thick with at least a 6" diamater. Drill a hole in the center that will fit on the thread adapter that came with the Nuvinci. Put it on first, all the way to the shoulder, then weld it in place. Get a go Kart sprocket with 6 bolt pattern and center it on plate, drill the six holes for mounting. Get a single speed freewheel and screw onto the reaming threads of the adapter.

I just got my second nuvinci and I got my steel plate. Today is my friday so will be off the next 3 days, I will try and get mine done and document it.
 
Well, turns out the guys that did the lacing on my rear wheel, didn't do a very good job. So I had to take it back down there today. They said they would redo it for me, but they also said it would only take 2 hours, that was almost 6 hours ago, still waiting for the phone call that it is done. In the mean time I got back to working on sorting out the 7kw Colossus motor. I needed to install hall sensors so that I could use a sensored controller. I have heard some people say that they got the sensorless RC controllers working, but then I heard those same people say that they never got them worked out quite right. So I needed to learn how to install hall sensors, and figure out the wiring with a brushless motor. Thanks to every one, especially Thud, who helped walk me through this learning process. I finally got the Colossus to spin up today. I was really stoked with that. I think the timing wasn't neutral, so I took the motor back apart and moved all the halls over one slot. Need to re-bench test again in both directions. I have them back in and the motor is closed up, but I'm waiting for the bicycle shop to call so I can run out and get my rear wheel. If they don't call soon, I'm gonna go back to testing and just pick it up tomorrow if they call. My front brake caliper came in today, so that is good. But I found out that the brake disk I was planning on using for the rear is too small and won't reach the rear caliper for how it is mounted on the xtracycle extension, so I think I'm going to have to order a larger one. I went with a floating on the front, but I think I will just do a regular one for the rear. I don't plan on using it much right now and they are so much cheaper. Oh, yeah, I think I forgot to mention that I got the extracycle extension installed. Man, that makes it a looooong bike. From end to end it is 82". That isn't the wheelbase, just how far the frame extends. I got an idea of something funny I want to try with it, but I need to test it out and see how it goes. I don't want to hype it up and have it be a complete failure. :lol: I'm still waiting on the new 20" forks so that hopefully the 20" wheel with the Pirelli tire will fit. If the rim brake mount is in the way on the 20" forks, I will definately cut them off. I just didn't want to do that to my Rock Shox 26" forks if I wasn't sure I was going to use them for this build. I don't want to try to use it for something else down the road and end up needing to use rim brakes and then be stuck. I think I will put a 26" wheel in there for right now till the other forks come in. At least that way I can get some stuff tested out. I realize that the geometry will be completely different, but there are some things that I need to test that won't be effected by the geometry. I'm still trying to figure out what seat will work best for this type of riding and my riding style. Actually, I still need to find out what my bicycle riding style is going to be. :lol: :lol: I have an idea of what might work really well based on my motorcycle racing, I just need to test and make sure this will work for a bicycle as well. It might be completely backwards though.
 
Jay,
that motor mount I showed you, you said 50mm? I have a tidle force frame here & its a 38mm seat tube, no problem if you need 50 for a frame mount (i have one of them too in the box somewhere please confirm & i'll send it out)

looks like your making good progress...I would be roofing now, but we are getting hammed with a thunderstorm :evil:

Your thinking a nice areo tail on that extracycle :!: ??? (great minds think alike LOL) Farfle is keeping secrets on his build now so its ok to hide your hand. :lol:

your stickers show up yet?

regarding riding stye....I am betting your going to be really suprised at how a bicycle frame flexes under racing conditions....my wheel base gets 2" shorter braking into a tight corner on the Bully. With those flexy RST forks your going to have fun. (subtle racer undermining of opponents equipment....check :mrgreen: )
 
Jay64 said:
I haven't gone through those links yet, I will in a second. But I just wanted to add that in this case it makes a difference, I don't care if the pedals drive the motor, I just don't want the motor to drive the pedals.
Don't quite understand that.
Pedals have to be able to drive the bicycle or it isn't a motorized bicycle.
 
I'll double check the measurement and let you know. I'll also take a pic of where I'm measuring from so you can let me know if that is the right place or not.

Thunderstorms during roofing, that sucks. Been there.

I originally was thinking of doing some streamlining when I first heard about one particular event. Was going to try and throw everything including the kitchen sink at it. But now I'm worried that if I bring a bike that is too fast, even if it is under 11hp that I might get banned to the big boy heat. :mrgreen: So I figured, no sense going overboard if the rules aren't even set yet. I think an aero tail would be awesome on it, but don't think I will do that for this event. Running out of time and still not finished with all the current hurddles either. I'm thinking that Grange only has one good straight, so I will see if I can just make up for any deficiencies on the rest of the lap in the corners. But my design seems to be changing on a daily basis, so who knows what I will show up with. LMAO! But I have no problems with trying to keep my hand from you regular ES members. I honestly think it would be super bad form to get all this great advice from you guys, and then turn around and keep a secret from you till the race. That would feel like I am using your advise against you. If I stay open with you guys about my build, then I feel like I'm using your advice to go have a great time being hooligans with you guys. If any info in my build allows one of you guys to step up your game even more, then great. I wouldn't even be able to make it to the event without your guys' help, so I definately don't want to hide my hand from you guys. Besides, if someone brings a better bike than mine and I can still run a faster lap time, that makes my smile even bigger. :lol:
Yes, the Endless-Sphere.Com stickers did show up. Thanks once again man. I will definately be sporting them on the bike and I'll even put them on the race van with all the other sponsor stickers so people can see them while I'm driving across country. Kinda small for that, but still way cool. Do you know how well they hold up to water/weather? Sometimes paper type stickers can totally fall apart when they get wet? Just curious.
I am expecting a lot of frame flex and a lot of tire sidewall flex on this bike. Maybe even more so when using the xtracycle extension. That is why I'm trying to design my build around possibly not using the xtracycle if it comes to it. I want to be able to swap back and forth between using it or not and still be able to run. If I snap that frame in testing or practice, I want to just chuck it, put the wheel in the stock location, and keep going. But that is the main reason why I feel I'm going to need to have my specific riding style how I want. That way I can ride around any issues with the frame flexing and not have to back off the throttle so much. :mrgreen: Trust me, if you had seen some of the test bikes I've rode on, you would know that having someone undermine my equipment doesn't really bother me. Hell, one day I had to test a front end change on the GSXR 600 up at Sears Point. Makes you think twice when you are flying down the back straight and have to slam on the brakes to get all the way down to 2nd gear for the 180 degree turn and knowing that you only have 2mm of your forks making contact in your top triple clamp. Now that's when you know you're living! :twisted: I tend to ride with a lot of body english when the bike isn't handling well, so I have to figure out a way make that possible if I need it. I really want to have something that I can hook my outside knee against so that I can push down on the outside pedal mid turn. Kind of like the flare of the gas tank on modern sportbikes.
 
MotorBicycleRacing said:
Jay64 said:
I haven't gone through those links yet, I will in a second. But I just wanted to add that in this case it makes a difference, I don't care if the pedals drive the motor, I just don't want the motor to drive the pedals.
Don't quite understand that.

Not really sure how to explain it to you any differently. Oh, well.

MotorBicycleRacing said:
Pedals have to be able to drive the bicycle or it isn't a motorized bicycle.

Yes, once again, I understand your rules. The bike I am building for my own enjoyment will follow all of your rules if I decide to ride it at your event. It will also be under 11 electrical horse power (actually probably almost half of that), it will also be using the Pirelli ML75 fronts that you have stated are legal for your event, it will have pedals that drive the bicycle, it will have both front AND rear brakes, and it will have a number between 100 and 140. If you don't understand a comment that I make on a forum about a bike that I am building, that doesn't mean that it is not following your rules that you have stated. I will be happy to take it through any technical inspection that all the other race bikes are going through at the track, because that is when it needs to be following your rules. I'm not really sure why you think that you need to keep reminding me of the rules of your event. Honestly, I would have much rather you clarified some of the Major grey areas that your rules don't cover, rather than continue to reiterate rules that you have already spelled out in black and white. I know I'm asking a lot of questions from these guys on how to get my brushless motor fitted with hall sensors and how to work with bicycle components instead of motorcycle components, so yes, I may seem a little slow compared to some of the geniuses on this forum. But I feel I am smart enough to understand: Need functioning pedals; no motorcycle tires allowed; less than 11 hp; need front and rear brake. And my mom taught me young to listen the first time I was told, so she didn't have to keep telling me the same thing over and over. :lol:
 
I hear ya Jay,
I riged up an anti back pedal system preping for Touscon figuring if i was going to be sliding I wanted to get my weight right...turned out to be more trouble than it was worth....I did find havine a huge old lady seat let me hook my knees under my battery box & really charge the switchbacks. The only corner I was close to drifting in AZ was turn 9 (a quick reducing radius corner)

The grainge track looks fairly technical with lots of contiuous cornering & switch backs...should be a riders track. Im really looking foward to it! Remember we will be running it counter clockwise.

MBR: Jay was refering to the pedals being "freewheeling" so he doesn't have to pedal 45+ mph all the way around the track.

I see you covered that already while i spell check. (i hope you aint calling me a genius LOL....I am just a wobbly old motocrosser...that qualifies me for just about everything :lol: )
 
Well, I guess I was kind of holding my hand about the seat, but it wasn't for a race advantage, I just thought it would be funny as hell to just show up with it and everyone be suprised to see it. I'm thinking of using an old school banana seat. I can see ways that I might be able to use it to my advantage over a regular seat based on my riding style. But like I said, I have to test it out, maybe it totally won't work like I think it will and I'll go back to a regular seat. I actually don't need it to be anti back pedal, as long as I can just push off it while it is straight down (on the outside.) Yeah, that is what I was thinking. Doing the battery box kind of like a gas tank so that I can hook my knees against it.
Actually, counterclockwise is their normal direction at Grange. That is the way that I have always rode there. I actually really like left handed tracks. I learned how to roadrace on a left handed track so I always tend to go slightly better on them than right handed tracks, which is different than most roadracers for some reason. I don't know if I am going to be able to, but I think this track will really lend itself to getting a knee down. That would be cool on a bicycle. Hell, wonder if I can drag an elbow in turn 1. :mrgreen:
 
One issue that I've been having is that when I plug the power to the controller, I get a big arc spark. It is just a brief spark, but it is making tiny arc weld spots on my power connector. The Lyen manual shows to have the ignition wire wired in with the positive power wire, so they both plug in at the same time. Would it possibly make it better to have the ignition wire get power after the two main power wires are plugged in together?
 
Look up "precharge"; there are a number of ways to do it to stop the spark. ;)

Alternately, leave the battery plugged into the controller all the tiem, and use the thin red "ignition" or "keyswitch" wire to power the cotnroller on and off. It'll still use power this way, so you'll need to ckeep the battery topped off every few days or less to be sure it stays full.
 
Jay64 said:
One issue that I've been having is that when I plug the power to the controller, I get a big arc spark. It is just a brief spark, but it is making tiny arc weld spots on my power connector. The Lyen manual shows to have the ignition wire wired in with the positive power wire, so they both plug in at the same time. Would it possibly make it better to have the ignition wire get power after the two main power wires are plugged in together?

Keep the main power wires plugged in at all times, put a switch on the ignition wire
...way i did it with the Lyen controller worked great, pity the controller didn't LoL...

KiM
 
amberwolf said:
Look up "precharge"; there are a number of ways to do it to stop the spark. ;)

Alternately, leave the battery plugged into the controller all the tiem, and use the thin red "ignition" or "keyswitch" wire to power the cotnroller on and off. It'll still use power this way, so you'll need to ckeep the battery topped off every few days or less to be sure it stays full.

As well as that there is a bleed resistor in the Infineon controllers which causes a small current to be drained even when the small red ignition wire is removed. On the EB2xx and EB3xx the resistor is labelled R203, it is a fairly big surface mount resistor linking the gnd and positive. Remove that and there should be no current drained. It's easy to confirm, with the resistor removed the capacitors will stay charged to the pack voltage for a long time after being removed from the back, when in place it bleeds down pretty quick and drains your pack.

I find a 200ohm resistor about 5W or so does a good job as a pre-charge. The way I do it with my packs is to fit a 3rd Anderson,so have black, green and red. Resistor is wired in line with pack positive to the green, then when connecting pack to controller connect black and green first, then red, no sparks. Works for me :)
 
Thanks for all the replys guys. Lyen also got back to me through email, basically saying the same things as you guys have said. I really like his customer service! I will post his reply for future reference for others as well.
1. get a 1000 ohm resistor 1 watt
2. connect the battery negative to the controller
3. connect the battery positive to the 1000 ohm resistor, then to the controller battery positive wire
4. connect battery positive to the controller's positive
5. connect the controller's ignition wire to the battery positive
Once again, thanks for all the responses.
 
The reason that I don't just leave it plugged in is because this is just bench test setup for right now. But I did have an old resistor in my box. Unfortunately I can't read it to tell what spec it is any more, but I installed it into the system and no arc spark. Thanks guys.
 
Thud said:
Jay,
that motor mount I showed you, you said 50mm? I have a tidle force frame here & its a 38mm seat tube, no problem if you need 50 for a frame mount (i have one of them too in the box somewhere please confirm & i'll send it out)

I have no idea where I got that 50mm from. Must have been something else I was measuring that day. Mine actually measures out to 35mm. Well, depends where I measure it from some spots is 34.8mm. I suppose you can make it for 38mm to be safe and if I have to I can shim it with strips from a Guiness can. :mrgreen:
 
Thud said:
it is a little easyer then the thread implys Jay,

all you need is a pr of freewheels that will slip fit over a freehub...I'll cut the locking keys & send you a pr...you can epoxy em right onto the freewheel with a schmeer of JB weld. I'll follow up with some photos...(damn my roof!)

Not sure if I'm going to make myself understood with this, but.... :mrgreen:
What if I don't want a freewheel on the motor driven sprocket? Will that make it any easier? It sounds like one of the problems is that 2 freewheels are having a hard time fitting on the NV hub. But if only the pedal rear gear is a freewheel, and the motor rear gear is a fixed, would that allow for more space while not having the motor drive the pedals? Apparently I can remove the threaded sprocket adaptor on the NV hub, so I have a choice of using a threaded gear, or the splined hub (I think you called it a free hub?).
 
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