My new eBike shop: Structuring, building, and pricing. Reflections and criticisms please.

[orcasprout]

This is not a sustainable business model. It's an albatross wishing to fly.

Thank you Utah, I COMPLETELY understand and share your skepticism but I've got no choice but to run this to ground. I'd never forgive myself if I didn't try. I'm always looking for the pivot and value proposition. In my business networking circles I was recently proved wrong about another enterprise. I was SURE they were going down and they are now more successful than ever. I'm cautiously optimistic.

NEVER EVER turn down business. If you are swamped with work then raise your prices. This is the best way to determine your price structure.

THANK YOU! This makes SO much sense, and is plainly obvious after I think about it. Why consternate about pricing when I don't have to (at least in this context).

How is it going midway into October?

How much time do you have? Lets see...

Slowing down as the weather gets colder. I've gone back and forth about how to electrify the Workman's dual trike. There are no threaded (1") forks for 20" fat tires (client's request). I'm also thinking about a Grin All-axle again for the rear. Lots of consternation there.

I went down to Philly and bought out the inventory of a guy getting out of the eBike repair business. He says there are 3 places now that do the service really cheap. They are orientated towards the delivery courier person and charged him $5 to adjust his brakes. I'm wondering if I will eventually face that, but my location is mid-density population and I believe I might have a "niche" here. We'll find out.

Give the small penny bits away for free, thats what customers remember.

Excellent advice. I'm realizing it's not the price but the WAY i make clients feel is the important part. If I get bogged down for hours with a BS repair, that's on me. I can't ask people to pay for my slow self. I've got to be more honest about the potential cost upfront (even thought I don't know it myself). Lots of price estimation work to develop.

Please weigh in on what you might charge to:
Replace a motor cable and halls
Back trace through all the client's disassembly mess and find out that the throttle was bad AND they had incorrectly switched two JST plugs (6 hours actual labor)?
Replace a scooter tire
Replace a controller and display.

Thanks everyone.

 

[leffex]

Here they go. Estimate approximations:

"Please weigh in on what you might charge to:"
50-100 - Replace a motor cable and hall cable only on the outside of the motor*
200-250 - Back trace through all the client's disassembly mess and find out that the throttle was bad AND they had incorrectly switched two JST plugs (6 hours actual labor)?
20-50 - Replace a scooter tire
50-100 - Replace a controller and display.
20-30 - Replace a display only sold inhouse by yourself

 

[riding_on]

Excellent advice. I'm realizing it's not the price but the WAY i make clients feel is the important part.

I think this is probably true in all areas of life, not just business. I wish you the best of luck (and if you run across anybody who needs software, send them my way, hah).

“I've learned that people will forget what you said, people will forget what you did, but people will never forget how you made them feel.”
― Maya Angelou

 

[calab]

My spoke guy jacked up the prices to easily rip off the yuppies, he mentioned a setup fee (that wasnt cheap) he had regular spoke prices but also a per spoke cut fee. I'm pretty sure the owner is fluent in Catonese, got all the toys in his shop.

 

[leffex]

I tried to get some tools. The old style theadiziser I imported from Australia but my first time using it my newly cut spoke got stuck in the machine and has since.

Maybe time to get it up an running again?

A German package of 16 lbs spokes saved me for years and still has some odd size spokes in times of need.

Apart from repairs and truing wheels I think I started this year by building 3 wheels. Each with 1x, 2x, and 3x type as I realized while building the more x is better. I really couldn't start over the first wheels. Also the more x or overlaps of other spokes, which it really is, makes you able to build a wheel if your spokes weren't the exakt length.

0,5mm size is a good rule of thumb to size after making a correct length assumption or using a spole calculator online. Too long and the wheel with get too lose. Too short and you won't get all the nipplets screwed in. Making more crosses on the wheel will need longer spokes so if you got a too long spoke from start that can be a solution.

If you get the chance sometimes and you have a use of something that chance to get something is usually very rare so take those chances when you get them and always haggle if you can. No emotions in arguing about a price that is good for both parties involved.

Recently the spare parts zombie shelf gave output. 4 front wheel motors with different errors gave out one fully build pre-used and refurbished working wheel. Value of a new front motor and wheel is about 450. Price out refurbished: 250.

Thank you.

 

[leffex]

The montly goal of sales is above expectation for many months in a row now which in the end will be celebrated with some Champagne. I would rather have red but its fine anyway.

Idéas coming up, reading statistics over former sales, hacking bosch batteries(maybe) and more. Trying to re-organize the store is another story of the tales of the coin, the one that never tells. The inside. It will be a hard nut to crack but as we say in Sweden. "Many small rivers". Meaning: many small income streams makes the deal

 

[orcasprout]

Hi leffex,

I'm goin' into winter mode here. Bookkeeping, marketing, inventory, insurance shopping (again), and building.

I have a Sur-ron upgrade for a 19 year old kid who spent $2500 on 72V 52Ah battery and ASI BAC4000 (360Amps!). He was doing the conversion with his dad and they got gunshy when it came to wiring and continuity. I'm glad to take the work but I feel like I'm setting this kid up for a disastrous injury. As a middle-aged man, I cringe to see the young (and not-so-young) seeking MORE and MORE and MORE!

I know where he is coming from...I was there...how did I survive this life so far? I encouraged him to get his motorcycle license and take a MSF class, sigh.

Still working on some funky projects that will be good marketing material. A Workman dual trike and electrifying a disc golf cart.

Overall I'm excited to be here in this place. I've attended and networked with my local municipal leadership and I'm laying the groundwork for collaboration around LEV implementation.

Prices for used eBikes is very good for buyers now. I wonder about acquiring inventory for the spring.

 

[leffex]

Hi leffex,

I'm goin' into winter mode here. Bookkeeping, marketing, inventory, insurance shopping (again), and building.

I have a Sur-ron upgrade for a 19 year old kid who spent $2500 on 72V 52Ah battery and ASI BAC4000 (360Amps!). He was doing the conversion with his dad and they got gunshy when it came to wiring and continuity. I'm glad to take the work but I feel like I'm setting this kid up for a disastrous injury. As a middle-aged man, I cringe to see the young (and not-so-young) seeking MORE and MORE and MORE!

I know where he is coming from...I was there...how did I survive this life so far? I encouraged him to get his motorcycle license and take a MSF class, sigh.

Still working on some funky projects that will be good marketing material. A Workman dual trike and electrifying a disc golf cart.

Overall I'm excited to be here in this place. I've attended and networked with my local municipal leadership and I'm laying the groundwork for collaboration around LEV implementation.

Prices for used eBikes is very good for buyers now. I wonder about acquiring inventory for the spring.

Creepy power

Getting a motorcycle license is for sure the best safety gear.

Yeah. We are also going into the cave now. Hehe. No, still a lot of normal bike service on the ebikes and changing tyres for winter typed ones. Even an ebike kit was put onto a bike today, to be resumed and finished tomorrow. Also sold the refurbished motor. It started out as a search for a solution for an ebike error with an error fee starting at 50 giving 430 in the end. So a total win there and also I got the old one in scraps that I will open up and se what the issue was and maybe if I'm lucky having the spare parts needed to get it up and going again. It looks normally used but inside may hide a treasure of a new unknown error or a known one. It is the same brand, model R10 motor front mounted from Accell group.



About LEV implementation has become build into buildings here and also a new type charging booths with room for a battery and a charger with an outlet is build in from the start. If you mean other type or consulting that may bring fruit in the future maybe. Your knowledge may be unique so don't give it for free... I think about that sometimes.

And also that a local villa complex with 150 villas deciding to build one fast ev-charger at each parking spot.

One brain and a calculator could deduce that if you put a ev-charger in the middle the adjacent parking spots can use it especially if not all are charging at the same time or needing a fast charge or even is an ev-car. One fast charger can share spot with other slow-chargers. It can even be build so that only one or two spots on a parking lot could have fast chargers and even used on a schedule or only short time allowance for parking. This will save alot of $ for the chargers as they may be the costly things here apart from "labour" but not to forget is that one must make the cables in the ground thick enough for at least some future upgrades. I don't have full disclosure of all materials, cables or chargers including labour cost so I can't make fully correct assumptions but I guess this would be a fast way, serving common people the cheapest and most smart way with a backup plan for easy future upgrades.

 

[amberwolf]

Prices for used eBikes is very good for buyers now.

Just...assume that the batteries are dead and useless, when factoring cost and value to you, because until you've load/capacity tested it one way or another, you won't know what condition it's in.

 

[calab]

For used motors - Open it up and take a look at the windings and gears if it has them. If water has gotten into the motor, I've seen some various amounts of rust inside hub motors posted on es.

 

[leffex]

Used stuff always need to be checked or you can have second or third option backups if the product ends up not delivering.

Easiest way to check battery health is a voltage reading of a fully charged battery so it can only be tested at that status.

The bike has a motor that you stock, great
The battery is the same as the one you are currently selling...
Other parts of the bike has value and look mint.

Here's a bike I just handed out. CASHED in a few hours ago:

https://imgur.com/a/OSSbphg

 

[Bandit1961]

In my humble opinion... no matter what your shop looks like & what prior knowledge, preparations & liabilities you account for... it all depends on your location & the need for it in that location to run a sucessful businesses in this industry

 

[orcasprout]

it all depends on your location & the need for it

This keeps me up at night. I'm in a location that in a lot of ways is the "middle". Lots of people here (>800,000) but built around the automobile. Quaint downtowns with lots of varying and interwoven density/infrastructure. I live on a very busy two lane east-west arterial. There is almost ALWAYS a back up of cars waiting to get past a constriction point. I see various LEVs go by, but the car rules here. The "cart/horse" is often flipped in a perverse way. We've got to wait in line to get "free" of constrictions.

That said, I HOPE I'm not pissing into the wind. My eco sensibilities drive me towards this business and I struggle with envisioning (and executing) viable value propositions. I'm not out of money or initiative but Bandit1961 is right as well.

I'm super grateful for all of you here. This is a special place for me. Thanks!

 

[leffex]

Always waiting for an update in this thread. I don't want to spam it here with conserves... boxes with pre-configured text.

My own plan is to get ourselves another employe at part time. We've have had two other youngsters in the past and we thaught them and they became faster and better until their time came to and end when the summers flow away.

I thought about the numbers of people versus bike shops there are and it seems it might be around 1 per 10,000 people. I don't know more than that I know about 6 stores in the city I live in with a population about maximum 80,000.

Numbers can help a bit or show you the rate of upward or downward trend. The seasons. The kind of products or services that are prone at certain periods. The buyer type is also something to ponder about because it is not the people you really think they are. I guess you have a lot of information about buyers already.

I wish you the best.

The sale goal for November was successful! Upon us now is our worst two months of the year until market demand surely will start to accelerate again. Time for meditation, projects and things of that nature. One of the projects is to build a Bosch powerpack ebike battery.

 

[From-A-To-B]

One of the projects is to build a Bosch powerpack ebike battery.

Best of luck to you, always.

If you wind up taking on that power pak, please document the rebuild! From what I read, those can be tricky and your experiences will be an asset to others.

 

[Cowardlyduck]

NEVER EVER turn down business. If you are swamped with work then raise your prices. This is the best way to determine your price structure.

That's what I do. My minimum price for custom battery builds is now 2k AUD with a lead time of 2-4 months....if I have no other builds in the works. Right now I'm booked out till March next year.

Also, just my 2c as someone tinkering in this space....I think it's worth getting into the custom scene more. People who want something unique/special are more willing to pay good money for it. Gaining success in the custom market then allows the flexibility to take the lower paying retail type jobs where you can fit them.

Cheers

 

[leffex]

Best of luck to you, always.

If you wind up taking on that power pak, please document the rebuild! From what I read, those can be tricky and your experiences will be an asset to others.

https://imgur.com/a/zYstydP

Yes, I'm certain it will work for sure, 100% when I change the BMS for a Bosch original one. The one I tried didn't work as it had a safety switch which can't be overridden after voltage dropped or cut due to its programmed limit. It could start the bosch ebike system but not accept throttle or pedal input to get the motor going. It could be charged, though. Walk-assist gave a swirling electric sound from the motor when pressed but it didn't start the motor. It gave me Bosch ebike error code 530 which is a fault that also can be on the ebike side but not in this case as I know it isn't anything wrong with the ebike.

I criss-crossed the 3-pin (inside) the battery to make it work and one way you could get it charging (which was easily seen by the 5th. / last led blinking) whilst no charger was connected or to say in my hacked terms "activated" so to say for discharge as it started to give output. No Arduino was needed apart from the above but a connector to get some juice from the battery. Still it didn't work on the Bosch ebike in this hacked state. The solution is to use a Bosch original bms and or repair one if needed. I can do one or two of the more easy repairs but not more than that.

Maybe I got the swirling electric sound wrong when it occurred but I'll update when I have double-checked it. As of now when doesn't really change the result as both tests were failures to get the Bosch proprietary ebike going.

That's what I do. My minimum price for custom battery builds is now 2k AUD with a lead time of 2-4 months....if I have no other builds in the works. Right now I'm booked out till March next year.

Also, just my 2c as someone tinkering in this space....I think it's worth getting into the custom scene more. People who want something unique/special are more willing to pay good money for it. Gaining success in the custom market then allows the flexibility to take the lower paying retail type jobs where you can fit them.

Wow. Incredible but that means your things are good, safe and reliably. One could do it the other way around too but then maybe you'd lose a lot of time in the process and that, we don't want either.

 

[leffex]

Time to get out of our cave and start working again!

We are starting some battery building business which looks promising and which will yield about 25-50 sales per year maybe. My own assumptions.

Apart from that I have some 18650 building jigs coming alive in my 3d-printer and other small tools that will help to save time in all related bike service fixes and repairs.

My private projects are generally slow but one by one is settling and giving out good results.

Cheers

 

[orcasprout]

Time to get out of our cave and start working again!

I feel like I never stopped, but I'm a one-man operation. People ask me how business is going and I say, "I'm going as fast as i can, which is very slow, which is all I can handle." (did i say this above already...I must be old)

I have a battery builder here in my region and we are partnering to see if we can apply for an EPA grant (75 pages!).

The idea is provide eBikes to qualifying low income people. Equitable access to transit.

In a Brose training class I met a cool guy from Cyclochrome they are a, "Montreal based social economy company" which I think is very cool.

If anyone has advice or experience in this, I'd love for you to chime in. I KNOW there are people out there doing this work and I'm trying not to re-invent the wheel. (pun intended)

 

[DaLanMan]

I can't speak to battery building, but I know this is gonna sound weird... Look at the USDA economic packages.. They do a lot of stuff in low income/distressed communities. I am currently working on paperwork for a project and it looks like they are gonna pick up 75% of the first year staffing costs...

I wonder if we will get steaks too?

 

[riding_on]

I have a battery builder here in my region and we are partnering to see if we can apply for an EPA grant (75 pages!).

I can't speak to battery building, but I know this is gonna sound weird... Look at the USDA economic packages.. They do a lot of stuff in low income/distressed communities. I am currently working on paperwork for a project and it looks like they are gonna pick up 75% of the first year staffing costs...

I wonder if we will get steaks too?

I registered as a Federal and State contractor, but I never found a single contract small enough for me to bid on. Still, I did learn that what people usually do is enlist the assistance of a university professor with applicable research in the area of interest. They then pay them to use their name and PhD on the documents they submit, basically.

 

[DaLanMan]

If you look at the contracts, most of them actually have such a long deliverable that you can actually get in there and compete.

I have an advantage in the fact that i have a fairly large group of people with those magic initials (Piled Higher and Deeper PhD) that will co-write with me, because my lil Ms don't impress in most circles (which is ok, I got that for my own reasons, it had literally no impact on my career besides sucking up a bundh of time in non-billable hours)
Seriously though, I am still bidding stuff with folks, and I am on a short time expiry list ((cancer is gonna get me in the not too distant future, between the nodules on my spine and Crohns I am basically hearing the clock tick) I just don't let that stop me. I have managed to keep clients through thick and thin because I learned the magic. Be honest and learn to set expectations. If someone ask's how much and how long, tell them the truth, if they want cheaper let them know that is not an area you compete in.

My byline "Fast, good, and cheap, you can only have 2 of them"

If you do crazy things like, return phone calls, and give out regular updates you will build a business that *LOVES* you. SOOOO many companies are looking at year/quarter/monthly goals they forget, people like to be heard.

 

[orcasprout]

Thank you Lan Man and Riding On.

My friend, my age (55), has prostate and bone cancer. He's not long for this world either.

Lan Man, I'm sorry to hear your news, may your remaining days be filled with joy and gratitude! Thank you for the advice, I'll incorporate it for sure.

 

[DaLanMan]

Preciate it, I think they didn't quite lock down the logic module when I was put together, joined the army and since I was too tall to fly attack helo, ended up a Ranger. after the 2nd hot jump, ended up smoking (my excuse was "it is not the most dangerous thing I do" took 15 years to bust that habit. Then when I got medicaled out, got into racing, and then when I wanted a real thrill, was working on a racing bike... Then had a kid, stopped all that crazy shizzle. took it safe and sane, and turns out genetics got me in the end. I was ok with risking my life since I was in my teens. So for now, I just try to do what I can to make the world a little better behind me.

Prostate cancer is pretty beatable, Bone cancer though ::shivers:: that sucks brother, if he ever needs a fellow survivor to talk to hit me up.

 

[leffex]

Update on the cargobike that I put a bafang 250w mid-drive system onto.

The special deal with this bike back in the day of 2023 was that I had to carve some plastic rings to put inside the bottom bracket as a filler. I heard back from the guy and he said it had been working perfectly. Now the cogs are run out on the front and he also wanted a size which he could fit a chain protector called "The chainglider" so we´ll do that.

I´m very happy that it have worked out and like stocks they keep going the way they do from the start in the move called momentum. I also feel that some "free sales" will be sent our way because of this as we always get some jobs that we cannot accept every year because their certain specific special needs. My way of telling that the money was easy sure does need work from my end but the sale was easy and free.

Now the only problem that may arise on the bottom bracket if a motor will fit or not is the width. I will try to get my hands on some adapters that we can offer for the other sizes which are wider, the 100 and maybe 92 and 86mm sizes if I am right. I need to learn what they care called as well.

Some sales has sprung. This Springy Winter days gives out plenty of snow to use and the battery build projects are about to start. Some small service jobs are incoming every other day and will be handled with the utmost care and expertise

I which you guys a happy February in cold or warmth. Whatever you prefer