new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

[robocam]

Haha, you missed some of the best stuff! =D It was deleted by the mod. hehehe

Hard to follow that last reply, you really have it in for gman for sure. I read all 70 pages of this thread...

 

[robocam]

Glad to see you were able to make it work! It's interesting to see that you chose an 80-130mm fork for a bike with 203mm of rear travel. That steepened your head angle quite a bit. How much front and rear travel does your Stumpy have? Despite being less nimble, how does it compare to your Stumpy in terms of fun? Which one do you enjoy riding more? Has it changed the way you ride? Is the coil shock super smooth? I don't think reversing your fork would change your head angle since that is fixed in regard to your frame. If you reversed the fork, the trail would change, and maybe not in a good way.

http://www.pinkbike.com/news/To-The-Point-Rake-and-Trail.html

You can use this geometry calculator to see how things have changed from stock.

http://bikegeo.muha.cc/

Robo et al,

Here is the Specialized Big Hit somewhat done:
...

 

[robocam]

I will report back! Part of why I like the BBSHD is because I don't have to find a place for the controller, but I just might be tempted to mod it someday! Too bad the PAS and the nice color LCD would be useless then. Part of me is wondering if I went nuts to pay this much for that thing, paying twice as much for half the power. Oh well. I must know what all the hype is about! The BBSHD guys must feel similarly about the Cyclone. =)

I must say that this thing is so freaking heavy! I cannot believe something this small can be so heavy! They need to make it out of aluminum like the Cyclone.

I wonder if it's possible to run the Cyclone with just one of the three planet gears so that it would be quieter and sound more refined. Maybe I should try it to see what happens.

I'll be really interested to hear your comparison to the C3000, particularly in regards to sound.

If the stock 1500 watts is too mild, then bump it up to 72 volts with an external controller!

 

[StinkyGoalieGuy]

I will report back! Part of why I like the BBSHD is because I don't have to find a place for the controller, but I just might be tempted to mod it someday! Too bad the PAS and the nice color LCD would be useless then. Part of me is wondering if I went nuts to pay this much for that thing, paying twice as much for half the power. Oh well. I must know what all the hype is about! The BBSHD guys must feel similarly about the Cyclone. =)

I must say that this thing is so freaking heavy! I cannot believe something this small can be so heavy! They need to make it out of aluminum like the Cyclone.

I wonder if it's possible to run the Cyclone with just one of the three planet gears so that it would be quieter and sound more refined. Maybe I should try it to see what happens.

I'll be really interested to hear your comparison to the C3000, particularly in regards to sound.

If the stock 1500 watts is too mild, then bump it up to 72 volts with an external controller!

I felt the same way, twice the price, half the power. My thinking was that I would keep it as my daily driver, something simple, quiet, stealthy looking, and quick to put together, something I always have running while I constantly tinker with the other "hot rods". Of course what did I do? I slapped the external controller on it, upped the power and started messing with the drive train mechanics. I just can't keep well enough alone.

 

[DingusMcGee]

Robo,

as I suspected you were working on a new build. Well, I was wrong, you are working on 2 new builds.

Glad to hear you pitching in again and hope to hear how one achieves a less noisy setup.

 

[sather]

I am running the ERT controller with the BBSHD (43 amps at 66 volts).
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=83450

The BBSHD is MUCH quieter than the Cyclone. No comparison.
The BBSHD power is comparable to the Cyclone 3000 in the high end (maybe better) but C3000 has more low end torque when accelerating from standstill. I am running a stock Cyclone controller without the Gman mod to the 3 position switch plug.

 

[juanfeli]

Sather,

I use the C3000 with a 3 speed switch to the controller and even though I don´t understand very well what it does, this is what it feels.

Speed 1, you have limited amps probably to half, you can reach 40 but temporally. It's quite impossible to overheat the motor in this mode and torque feels like half as well. Speed 2, is half and I think is what you have. Speed 3 is similar to speed 2 but it gives more (probably 2x?) rpm at the end, similar what you are describing with your BBSHD.

Very interesting your comparison, specially about the initially torque with 3 amps less as cyclone controller is limited to 40.

 

[sather]

I have long suspected that the stock Cyclone 3000 controller puts out a lot of phase amps to achieve its great low end torque and acceleration. It has much better startup torque and acceleration than the LR 3000 running the same wattage. Also, I'm guessing that the Cyclone three position switch introduces field weakening current to get the high rpms. High phase amps increase heat, so does field weakening current.

 

[dirkdiggler]

Yeah, the bbshd is tempting with external controller. Don't you still end up with controller mounting issues, lack of a nice display, speed sensor and added weight, not to mention the extra cost? Benefits are only non exposed chain and noise? Also you'll get more power out of the cyclone if you throw on a controller that doesn't cost $40. Change it out to the phase grin or another 60amp and you'll be even further ahead. Although I think 3kw is pushing the limit for a bike.
I'm trying to convince myself on another build!
Dingus -
I disagree with your people skills, but glad to see your moto seat attempt. I was going to try that, but just bought a enduro frame with a moto seat. Should put a cyclone on it, but going for rear hub and bht combo. Requires some extra welding, but lack extra cash for another unnecessary bike!

 

[Alex07]

Unread postby dirkdiggler » Sat Dec 10, 2016 6:25 am

Yeah, the bbshd is tempting with external controller. Don't you still end up with controller mounting issues, lack of a nice display, speed sensor and added weight, not to mention the extra cost? Benefits are only non exposed chain and noise? Also you'll get more power out of the cyclone if you throw on a controller that doesn't cost $40. Change it out to the phase grin or another 60amp and you'll be even further ahead. Although I think 3kw is pushing the limit for a bike.
I'm trying to convince myself on another build!

Good call Dirk thats how i see it to, their is no advantages with the BBSHD once you mod to 72v with external controller. in stock form the the BBSHD has some advantage but then it only has 1600w peak.... With an external controller you are destroying the main benefits it had which was stealth internal controller mount and quiet operation. Once you up the voltage with an external controller to 3000w you can expect a huge increase in noise, after all the RPM and load is what makes noise in a gear system. And even then it still doesn't have the low down torque of the C3000w, so like you say you end with the same controller mount issues,....more difficult to service the internal proprietary gears, less torque and something that costs a lot more too! so why would you do it? the BBSHD with external 72v is like a try hard C3000w wannabe motor lol

 

[robocam]

Have you heard a BBSHD operate at 72V in person (i.e. not in a video posted by someone else)?

...their is no advantages with the BBSHD once you mod to 72v with external controller. in stock form the the BBSHD has some advantage but then it only has 1600w peak.... With an external controller you are destroying the main benefits it had which was stealth internal controller mount and quiet operation. Once you up the voltage with an external controller to 3000w you can expect a huge increase in noise...

 

[robocam]

How much louder is the BBSHD at 66V vs stock? Is it still significantly quieter than the Cyclone at 66V? What voltage is the Cyclone at that you're comparing it to?

I really don't think you should compare it with the Cyclone in speed 2, because speed 3 is its true maximum performance. It would be like comparing a Corvette to an NSX, but in the Corvette, your engine is limited to a max of 4000 RPM.

I am running the ERT controller with the BBSHD (43 amps at 66 volts).
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=83450

The BBSHD is MUCH quieter than the Cyclone. No comparison.
The BBSHD power is comparable to the Cyclone 3000 in the high end (maybe better) but C3000 has more low end torque when accelerating from standstill. I am running a stock Cyclone controller without the Gman mod to the 3 position switch plug.

 

[robocam]

All it does is limit the maximum RPM. The current is not limited. Also, my Cyclone controller has allowed up to 43A to the motor, so apparently there is some variability.

...I use the C3000 with a 3 speed switch to the controller and even though I don´t understand very well what it does, this is what it feels.

Speed 1, you have limited amps probably to half, you can reach 40 but temporally. It's quite impossible to overheat the motor in this mode and torque feels like half as well. Speed 2, is half and I think is what you have. Speed 3 is similar to speed 2 but it gives more (probably 2x?) rpm at the end, similar what you are describing with your BBSHD.

Very interesting your comparison, specially about the initially torque with 3 amps less as cyclone controller is limited to 40.

 

[robocam]

I don't think it's the controller because I used it with my GNG mid drive, and when I went back to the Cyclone, it had much more low end torque. It could be that it's just simply because the Cyclone motor is bigger.

I have long suspected that the stock Cyclone 3000 controller puts out a lot of phase amps to achieve its great low end torque and acceleration. It has much better startup torque and acceleration than the LR 3000 running the same wattage. Also, I'm guessing that the Cyclone three position switch introduces field weakening current to get the high rpms. High phase amps increase heat, so does field weakening current.

 

[sather]

It's not bigger than the LightingRods Big Block 3000, which is what I was referring to: "LR3000". When geared the same and running the same watts and crank rpms, the Cyclone has significantly more low end acceleration than the LR. BTW: The Cyclone gets hot very quickly running 3400 watts and the LR doesn't even get warm. (Both having their temperature sensors on the windings)

 

[Alex07]

Unread postby sather » Sat Dec 10, 2016 8:06 am

It's not bigger than the LightingRods Big Block 3000, which is what I was referring to: "LR3000". When geared the same and running the same watts and crank rpms, the Cyclone has significantly more low end acceleration than the LR. BTW: The Cyclone gets hot very quickly running 3400 watts and the LR doesn't even get warm. (Both having their temperature sensors on the windings)

Is that true sather the Cyclone 3000w has significantly more torque than lightning rod BIG block at 3kw ? i thought people were saying it has more torque then the lightning rod SMALL block ! so your saying it has more torque than the lightning rod big block ? wow that's a suprise....

 

[robocam]

Honestly, I don't really care that much about the display or the built-in controller. I do care about not having a secondary chain that could fall off, ruining a ride (yes this has happened to me before), and quietness. Though I don't find the Cyclone 3000 that loud.

The biggest BBSHD con to me is that 42T is the smallest reasonable chainring I can run that will provide me with a good chainline. I test-fitted my new BBSHD with the Luna Eclipse chainring to my 2009 Fuji Thrill LT 2.0 frame, and it was as if it was made for it. I am so happy with the fit. The Eclipse is about as close to the chainstay as it can be without touching it. It would be nice if the teeth were made of steel instead of aluminum. They should offer a steel replacement ring as an option.

A 42T on a 26er is like a 38T on a 29er, which is what I use now, so I'm ok with that, but on my new Specialized Enduro 29er, I want to use a 32T (the smallest 104 BCD chainring with unthreaded holes), so I might just get another Cyclone for it.

I wish it wasn't so cold outside!

Yeah, the bbshd is tempting with external controller. Don't you still end up with controller mounting issues, lack of a nice display, speed sensor and added weight, not to mention the extra cost? Benefits are only non exposed chain and noise? Also you'll get more power out of the cyclone if you throw on a controller that doesn't cost $40. Change it out to the phase grin or another 60amp and you'll be even further ahead. Although I think 3kw is pushing the limit for a bike.
I'm trying to convince myself on another build!
Dingus -
I disagree with your people skills, but glad to see your moto seat attempt. I was going to try that, but just bought a enduro frame with a moto seat. Should put a cyclone on it, but going for rear hub and bht combo. Requires some extra welding, but lack extra cash for another unnecessary bike!

 

[robocam]

Interesting. Did you experience this yourself? I guess the definitive test would be to run the LR3000 with the Cyclone controller.

BTW, does the BBSHD sound any different with the ERT controller vs stock?

It's not bigger than the LightingRods Big Block 3000, which is what I was referring to: "LR3000". When geared the same and running the same watts and crank rpms, the Cyclone has significantly more low end acceleration than the LR. BTW: The Cyclone gets hot very quickly running 3400 watts and the LR doesn't even get warm. (Both having their temperature sensors on the windings)

 

[StinkyGoalieGuy]

Unread postby dirkdiggler » Sat Dec 10, 2016 6:25 am

Yeah, the bbshd is tempting with external controller. Don't you still end up with controller mounting issues, lack of a nice display, speed sensor and added weight, not to mention the extra cost? Benefits are only non exposed chain and noise? Also you'll get more power out of the cyclone if you throw on a controller that doesn't cost $40. Change it out to the phase grin or another 60amp and you'll be even further ahead. Although I think 3kw is pushing the limit for a bike.
I'm trying to convince myself on another build!

Good call Dirk thats how i see it to, their is no advantages with the BBSHD once you mod to 72v with external controller. in stock form the the BBSHD has some advantage but then it only has 1600w peak.... With an external controller you are destroying the main benefits it had which was stealth internal controller mount and quiet operation. Once you up the voltage with an external controller to 3000w you can expect a huge increase in noise, after all the RPM and load is what makes noise in a gear system. And even then it still doesn't have the low down torque of the C3000w, so like you say you end with the same controller mount issues,....more difficult to service the internal proprietary gears, less torque and something that costs a lot more too! so why would you do it? the BBSHD with external 72v is like a try hard C3000w wannabe motor lol

The BBSHD at 72V is still very quiet. It's not much different from 52 volts, and I'm running on the crappy Cyclone Bluetooth Controller. I would imagine it's even quieter on the Grin Phase Runner or a sine wave controller. You can really only hear it when there is a very light load on the gears, such as when running on low gear like the 30T Might Mini up front to a 34T on the cassette in the back, and riding on level ground. When I downshift to a 20T on the back thus increasing the load, the road noise from the knobbies is louder than the motor itself. I can't hear any motor noise at all in that gear ratio. For me, the silence is worth the extra cost. It may not be a major criteria for everyone.

 

[robocam]

I'm glad we have real user feedback. Thank you for this =)

The BBSHD at 72V is still very quiet. It's not much different from 52 volts, and I'm running on the crappy Cyclone Bluetooth Controller. I would imagine it's even quieter on the Grin Phase Runner or a sine wave controller. You can really only hear it when there is a very light load on the gears, such as when running on low gear like the 30T Might Mini up front to a 34T on the cassette in the back, and riding on level ground. When I downshift to a 20T on the back thus increasing the load, the road noise from the knobbies is louder than the motor itself. I can't hear any motor noise at all in that gear ratio. For me, the silence is worth the extra cost. It may not be a major criteria for everyone.

 

[sather]

I had my two BBSHDs before I got the Cyclone 3000. The Cyclone spoils you with all its power and soon you are not riding the BBSHDs except when you need stealth.

Obviously the Cyclone is a much better value. The BBSHD is $700. plus a chainring $50, ERT controller and throttle $170 and CA3 to monitor temperatures $145. You can buy three Cyclones for that price.

To Alex07: There is no appreciable increase in motor or gear noise running 2800 watts (67 v x 44 amps) through the BBSHD. I'm waiting for 72 volt batteries to become available.

At 2800 watts, both motors will heat up pretty quickly to 110C if you don't keep the rpms up.

At the same wattage, the ERT BBSHD is every bit as fast as the Cyclone 3000. Except virtually no noise. My tires are louder than the motor.

 

[robocam]

Awesome =)

...There is no appreciable increase in motor or gear noise running 2800 watts (67 v x 44 amps) through the BBSHD...At the same wattage, the ERT BBSHD is every bit as fast as the Cyclone 3000. Except virtually no noise. My tires are louder than the motor.

 

[Alex07]

Alex07: There is no appreciable increase in motor or gear noise running 2800 watts (67 v x 44 amps) through the BBSHD. I'm waiting for 72 volt batteries to become available.

That must be one magical motor that defies the laws of physics, when every single other motor/gearbox on this forums gets louder the higher the voltage hence rpm and load is.

 

[spinningmagnets]

It does get a little louder, but it starts out so quiet that even after doubling the dB it is still pretty quiet. How many gearboxes around here use a helical gear on the high-RPM half of the drive? And then also use a helical gear on the secondary?

That being said, I would not recommend taking the BBSHD over 52V X 40A = 2080W, but that's just me. The Cyclone motor and gearbox can take much more than 2080W. however, until they switch to helical gears, that will likely remain the main source of the drive-system noise.

The biggest problem with the Cyclone-3000 (IMHO) is the mounting brackets.

 

[sather]

I don't know why SickBikeParts doesn't make a modified mount. Maybe they can't make enough money on it?

Bent sleeve failure Page 25
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=69867&start=600

Washer mod failure Page 28
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=69867&start=675

Robocam mount Page 29
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=69867&start=700

DingusMcGee mount Page 37
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=69867&start=900

Detailed Robocam page 37
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=69867&start=900

Dogboy1200 mount page 51
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=69867&start=1250