New Enduro/clone build

[mckidney]

PS: I am using weight as representation of thermal capacity, It is reasonably safe assumption for metal involved.

Finished reading posts and sources I could find from this thread:
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=48753&start=2075
I must say this is amazing how much work people put together here.

As it is with cooling electronics, most of the principles here are the same.
There are a few key differences:

• Capacity of the stator is going to be the same or bigger than the shell. Making cooling the shell very inefficient,

• The resistance between motor and the shell is incredibly high due to air isolation. Static wheel would sit warm while the core is overheating.

• Heat transfer between the two is only efficient when wheel is spinning. With or without statoraid. (I guess more with the ferro-fluid as you are losing most of the benefit and gaining nothing).

• 10 liters of water would keep the motor cool practically forever. By the time you are done riding the water canister would be ready again due to losses. 2 liters is more than enough for a cooling break.

Which brings me back to water - once I get my statorade and fins I want to get HVAC copper tubing and run it around the shell next to the fins. It should add little weight and allow easy fill port. Wheel would still need to turn for it be effective, but that can serve as a benefit when designed correctly.

Back to your original question, weight added by the lipo, fan would not have measurable impact on a stationary wheel. It would be like blowing wind on a house with decent isolation. You are probably better off bringing a stand and touching the throttle once in a while

 

[Eastwood]

Climbed 4,840 ft yesterday at Brushy mountain motorsport Park - 26 miles :thumb:. Which is a lot considered these are Enduro trails no smooth sections. Tons of rocks and boulders.

The 6T winding did great in comparison to my older motor 5.5T. The hub sinks and ferrofluid helped wonders at cooling the motor. With the 6T motor was able to turn down the dc amps to 80 and max phase 300 which helped wonders with keeping the heat in check. My normal off-road settings are 120 dc 350 phase.

So It got a little interesting halfway up a hill climb, my thumb throttle snapped off :lol:
Thankfully I was still able to twist the base of the throttle to accelerate. I didn’t have a extra throttle with me but did have my regenerative braking throttle I could’ve switched over but didn’t mess with it and managed to finish the ride.
So I’m switching out the throttle today and will keep an extra throttle with me in the future. Installing some quick connection on the signal wires in case this happens in the future I could quickly switch out the throttle while on a trail. Picture below of the connector.

 

[mckidney]

Climbed 4,840 ft yesterday at Brushy mountain motorsport Park - 26 miles :thumb:. Which is a lot considered these are Enduro trails no smooth sections. Tons of rocks and boulders.

...

got a little interesting halfway up a hill climb, my thumb throttle snapped off :lol:

Looks like a pretty engaging trail. Glad to hear new motor works better. Going down to 80A should make a huge difference on thermals. Are you buying motors with wheels or building and centering?

I almost bought this combo for my bike. Reviews mentioned poor construction and I ended up with a classic 1/2 throttle instead.
I find the twist one more fun in almost all terrain. The obvious exception is a slow and steady climb where it gets tiring to pedal and keep the throttle up and balanced.
What do you think? I wonder about pros and cons.

Going for Wago is certainly a better choice than those bulky molex connectors. I am using Wago and HiGo connectors too.
They are both easier to manage and HiGo has the benefit of easier water-proofing.

Here is an interesting comparison of know-off wago connectors that might fit your build:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C8Xpjj47vgU

 

[LCLabs]

Climbed 4,840 ft yesterday at Brushy mountain motorsport Park - 26 miles :thumb:. Which is a lot considered these are Enduro trails no smooth sections. Tons of rocks and boulders.

The 6T winding did great in comparison to my older motor 5.5T. The hub sinks and ferrofluid helped wonders at cooling the motor. With the 6T motor was able to turn down the dc amps to 80 and max phase 300 which helped wonders with keeping the heat in check. My normal off-road settings are 120 dc 350 phase.

So It got a little interesting halfway up a hill climb, my thumb throttle snapped off :lol:
Thankfully I was still able to twist the base of the throttle to accelerate. I didn’t have a extra throttle with me but did have my regenerative braking throttle I could’ve switched over but didn’t mess with it and managed to finish the ride.
So I’m switching out the throttle today and will keep an extra throttle with me in the future. Installing some quick connection on the signal wires in case this happens in the future I could quickly switch out the throttle while on a trail. Picture below of the connector.

I bought a couple of the NOS Alta Motor throttles off ebay and they are very nice. Just use the purple wire as your throttle control with power/gnd to red/black. I went with same 6t winding in a 17" wheel but my geometry is off. What size cranks do you have (mine seem very close to the ground)? Also what size rear shock?

 

[Eastwood]

Climbed 4,840 ft yesterday at Brushy mountain motorsport Park - 26 miles :thumb:. Which is a lot considered these are Enduro trails no smooth sections. Tons of rocks and boulders.

The 6T winding did great in comparison to my older motor 5.5T. The hub sinks and ferrofluid helped wonders at cooling the motor. With the 6T motor was able to turn down the dc amps to 80 and max phase 300 which helped wonders with keeping the heat in check. My normal off-road settings are 120 dc 350 phase.

So It got a little interesting halfway up a hill climb, my thumb throttle snapped off :lol:
Thankfully I was still able to twist the base of the throttle to accelerate. I didn’t have a extra throttle with me but did have my regenerative braking throttle I could’ve switched over but didn’t mess with it and managed to finish the ride.
So I’m switching out the throttle today and will keep an extra throttle with me in the future. Installing some quick connection on the signal wires in case this happens in the future I could quickly switch out the throttle while on a trail. Picture below of the connector.

I bought a couple of the NOS Alta Motor throttles off ebay and they are very nice. Just use the purple wire as your throttle control with power/gnd to red/black. I went with same 6t winding in a 17" wheel but my geometry is off. What size cranks do you have (mine seem very close to the ground)? Also what size rear shock?

Do you have a pic? what did you use for your front suspension fork? My rear shock is the oversize Dnm I believe it’s 285 mm Eye 2 Eye or maybe 265 I can’t remember it’s been a while. It’s the one that comes with the 750 pound spring so it’s their largest one. It’s actually longer than was designed for this bike so I did have to lower the seat to help with the geometry and now it’s perfect. But as far as ground clearance I have way more than a traditional dirtbike with the 16 inch rear rim. Sounds like your rear shock might not be long enough or also I’m not sure about your front suspension.

 

[Cazungas]

Where did you find the 4 bolt 58t chainring…I would like to use the same.

 

[Eastwood]

Where did you find the 4 bolt 58t chainring…I would like to use the same.

I bought multiple sizes and purchased all of them from Amazon and eBay.

 

[xylene23nyc]

Takasago Excel 19” 1.85

I was wondering what length of spoke did you use for the QS Motor to Excel 19 x 1.85 rim? How did you calculate it?

I want to try lacing my own QS 205 hub motor to one of these Excel - GDK422 19 x 1.85 rims using 10G spokes over the winter. I couldn't find exact Excel rim specs like ERD, offset etc to use the Grin spoke calculator tool.

I have to say your build was a good reason for me to consider this Enduro Clone based frame. Couldn't be happier!

Thanks again!

 

[Eastwood]

Takasago Excel 19” 1.85

I was wondering what length of spoke did you use for the QS Motor to Excel 19 x 1.85 rim? How did you calculate it?

I want to try lacing my own QS 205 hub motor to one of these Excel - GDK422 19 x 1.85 rims using 10G spoke over the winter. I couldn't find exact Excel rim specs like ERD, offset etc to use the Grin spoke calculator tool.

I have to say your build was a good reason for me to consider this Enduro Clone based frame. Couldn't be happier!

Thanks again!

Hey thanks!!

Just now seeing this. I can’t remember the ERD of the Excel rim. I used the spoke calculator from grin technology. That being said I would suggest using a prowheel as it fits the 10 gauge spoke nipples perfectly. If you go with excel rim you’ll have to make special washers so they spoke head doesn’t pull through the rim. If you need a source for the 10 gauge spokes I can get them for fairly cheap. Will can get you the ERD for the 16 inch rim/prowheel if you need it? I’m sure I can find the notes for that one it was more recent. I think the 16 inch rear rim is optimal for this frame and the QS205. The 19 is just too big and it’s just extra weight. You’ll get more torque out of the smaller wheel

 

[Eastwood]

Well back at it again doing some much-needed maintenance from riding off road. So my last ride which was yesterday Saturday I completely blew the rear shock which it was already leaking oil. So I’ve ordered a rear shock/fastace that’s for a pit bike which has 1000 pound spring. My recent DNM shock has a 750 pound spring and it’s way too weak. So I’m hoping New shock will be more stiff.

For the front forks I just purchased a stronger spring which should help with off-road riding. Anyone who has the DNM Volcano knows of stock springs are way too soft. So I was able to finally find a spring that fits, it’s the rock Shox boxer if anyone is searching for upgraded springs for the volcano. I actually just ordered it tonight I’ll keep everyone updated how it goes.

Also will flush the front and rear brakes as the mineral fluid is shot. Lastly ordered a new rear tire.
I’ll post some update pictures once I get the bike put back together.

PCC MOTOR FASTACE 11" 280MM REAR SHOCK 66AR-1000LB PIT DIRT BIKE SK13 https://a.co/d/iaqgg1h
RockShox Boxxer Race/RC/Team/R2C2 Coil Spring https://a.co/d/efFxwzX

 

[Bengy22]

Smart to start looking at motorcycle stuff and not mtb parts, I think that's what most people should be doing with these big heavy powerful builds. That shock should handle the weight a lot better. Lets see some photos of it. Hey did you see my last message?

 

[Eastwood]

Got the xtra firm spring installed in the forks. Had to cut the spring down slightly. Much stiffer than the stock spring/s. Now I will change the shim stack on the rebound piston of the dnm volcano forks. Will make a tapered doubled shim stack to have better low speed and high speed damping. In the pics below is the stock/factory shim stack for the DNM volcano. Ordered more shims and will post pics of the shim stack layout. Also ordered some SKF seals for the forks. In efforts to relieve any stiction or unnecessary friction from the cheap Chinese seals these forks come with.

Received the new rear shock! Looks good just hope it performs well. Will probably change the shim stack in the rear shock as well since it doesn’t have and clicker settings. It at least has rebound speed adjustment. Excited and curious to test the bike out once I get this suspension sorted. I’m sure it will feel completely different with tuned suspension. Maybe I’ll get it right on my first try but I’m willing to reopen the fork and shock a few times to dial in the shim stack to get it right.

Also hoping this beefier and stronger rear shock will help with the up spring of this heavy hub motor.

 

[gobi]

Eastwood,
What is your seat height with the new shock/spring as is?

Dang 2x the weight, beefy!

 

[Eastwood]

Smart to start looking at motorcycle stuff and not mtb parts, I think that's what most people should be doing with these big heavy powerful builds. That shock should handle the weight a lot better. Lets see some photos of it. Hey did you see my last message?

Yeah, hoping it handles the weight better. Especially with the up spring of the heavy hub motor

Eastwood,
What is your seat height with the new shock/spring as is?

Dang 2x the weight, beefy!

The seat height is to be determined as of now. I’m remaking the top mount for the shock. The shock mount I bent a while back but fixed it and reinforced with another steel plate-pic below, but it was still somewhat bent. Anyways, the seat height was already too high with the 265 mm shock, so the new mounting bracket will allow the bike to be slightly lower in the rear. Should feel more stable, especially descending down mountains. On the other hand it’ll probably make the bike want to loop out easier doing hill climbs now lol

 

[Eastwood]

making progress.. Just waiting on the shims for the rebound. Got the spring side finished :thumb: feels much much stiffer pressing on it. Would like to do some testing tomorrow if my shims get delivered so I can get this put back together. The dampening side is ready for assembly just waiting to install the new 2 stage shim stack.

For now I bolted the rear shock to the factory mounts to determine how much I will lower the rear end of the bike. once I can sit on the bike and do a little bit of testing.

I’m really really curious to see how the forks will feel with the stronger spring and increased shim stacks. Plus, the seals being low friction should make the fork stroke much smother. I’m also super curious to see how this rear suspension will feel.

 

[Eastwood]

Got the bike put back together :thumb:
Did some testing up and down the driveway a few times. The forks and rear suspension both feel better! Haven’t had a chance to test off road yet, so that will be the real test. But yeah happy with the results 8)

Forks:
So the forks feel way stiffer but yet plush with the minimum testing I did. The real test will be when I take hard hits off road to the front wheel to see how the dampening responds. The front of the bike doesn’t sag like it used to. Prior when I would get off the bike, the front end would still sag until you pulled up on the handlebars lol. Now the forks are sitting firm but plush :thumb:
The shim stack is 8mm ID,0.1 thickness
compression 21 2x20 19 “13” 2x19 18 2x17 15
Rebound 19 17 "13" 17 16 14
The 13mm shim is the crossover shim that separates the low speed compression and high speed compression. Also separates the low speed rebound, and high speed rebound.
Here’s a great YouTube video explaining shim stacks, This video also goes into what a two-stage shim stack is.
https://youtu.be/dRekn0iRiRs

Suspension:
Yeah the pit bike shock feels much more appropriate. It’s similar to the forks it feels more firm, but yet more plush. Do wish the rear shock had more travel but oh well. From the minimum testing I did it felt like it kept the rear wheel more planted with less up spring from riding over my driveway curb. Hit the curb a few times hard with the rear wheel, and it seemed that it didn’t bounce up like it typically would using the DNM burner shock.

Oh and full credit to Emmett for the shim stack. Was going to wing it myself but figured I would try his shim stack. Think he mention he open the fork around 12 times to get the stack dialed in right lol. So yeah, I figured that would be a better starting point than starting from scratch.
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=23996&p=978312#p978312

Lastly, I still have to remake the top mount for the rear shock. As of now, the rear end is too high because of the oversized shock. I’ll post more pictures once I finish the Mount. Hopefully this is helpful to anyone else out there with an Enduro frame that would like to upgrade to a pit bike shock.

 

[Eastwood]

As you can see in the pic, it’s sitting a little high in the rear. It rides ok like this but for off-road the rear needs to be lower. Plan to start making the top mount for shock today, thinking of lower the rear approximately 40mm

Seat height as of now is 37” with 280mm rear shock.
Bike weight is 142lbs.

 

[99t4]

So the forks feel way stiffer but yet plush...

Plush-- I see that word used a lot when describing suspension forks but not sure what it means. :? What does it mean?

 

[Eastwood]

So the forks feel way stiffer but yet plush...

Plush-- I see that word used a lot when describing suspension forks but not sure what it means. :? What does it mean?

For me, when I say plush, it means the suspension is very smooth. There’s no stiction or friction but it doesn’t necessarily mean soft.

Example:
So you could have soft suspension, and it could not be plush because there’s stiction between the inner parts of the fork primarily the seals and the bushings. So plush doesn’t necessary mean soft, but more so smooth if that makes sense :wink:

 

[Santacruz]

+1 on the shock. I did the same a year ago.
First I tried an idea of 2 air shocks that really worked well, but, they needed constant topping up and I got a bit fed up with it. So, I sized and fitted a pit bike shock with remote reservoir. Now, very nice ride and handles the QS273 well.




Twin air shock idea




Changed rear to pit bike shock and front to air shock of a normal bike style to allow more steering.

 

[Eastwood]

+1 on the shock. I did the same a year ago.
First I tried an idea of 2 air shocks that really worked well, but, they needed constant topping up and I got a bit fed up with it. So, I sized and fitted a pit bike shock with remote reservoir. No, very nice ride and handles the QS273 well.

nice, thanks for sharing! I seen another guy on YouTube that tried the 2 shock method as well. He was using 2 DNM burner with 550lbs springs.

But yeah, seems like pit bike Shocks are way more appropriate for these bikes because of the weight. The problem with mountain bike shocks is two things. 1st the spring rate is too weak. 2nd problem, the reservoirs on MTB shocks can’t handle the weight.

 

[DogDipstick]

Look at you, customizing a Volcano and making your own shims and stuff. How precious and cute. Lol. Sincere. Great bike.

I am on my fourth shock with a 650lb spring... starting to bottom out so the damper is dying and the preload aint cutting it anymore... I have an 800 pound on a Risse FSAE Jupiter5 rear,, but I blew that one out and need to fix the Risse.

 

[Eastwood]

Look at you, customizing a Volcano and making your own shims and stuff. How precious and cute. Lol.

Right!! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

I am on my fourth shock with a 650lb spring... starting to bottom out so the damper is dying and the preload aint cutting it anymore... I have an 800 pound on a Risse FSAE Jupiter5 rear,, but I blew that one out and need to fix the Risse.

Yup I’m on my 4th as well with this bike. Too much weight and hard riding with these wimpy shocks. I just hope this fast ace will hold up. It’s serviceable so that’s good.

Which bike are you running the Risse FSAE Jupiter5?

 

[DogDipstick]

Which bike are you running the Risse FSAE Jupiter5?

I have a full Risse, suspension system actually. A set of Trixy forks too that are blown and need rebuild.

My hub motor bike.... the white one. this one. 7.25 eye to eye.

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=117062&start=50

 

[ZeroEm]

Been reading your posts from the start. Your bike has come a long way, seems you have tackled any and all issues. Job well done.