New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

[feketehegyi]

Trying out my Android app as LCD Display, connected via Bluetooth to Motor Controller.
[youtube]OW_DBxg3iwI[/youtube]

 

[John and Cecil]

I'm sorry you burned up your motor Casainho I have yet to have my motor cut out due to high temps. I am guessing that going over 750w increases the odds of overheating them, and probably especially when it is really hot outside as opposed to the winter. Also it probably makes a differnece as to what rpm range you are running. I always run my motor in at least the top 80% of the rpm range for a given gear. I do not have a way of monitoring engine power output but I suspect riding this way reduces power output. It must because my 2ah battery lasts a long time (5 miles) and I am even undercharging it by about 2 volts.

I think if you are running this motor in lower rpm ranges then it would probably be wise to back off the amps. I think perhaps you can raise them a bit if you are always running in the upper rpm range though.

 

[casainho]

Maybe someone who has contacts with the TSDZ2 factory can ask if the motor (or controller) has any internal temperature sensors.

I have another idea: I think silicon ics have operation temperature up to about 125c. And 8nside the motor, we have 3 of them, the hall sensors!!! So, maybe the have the functionality to detect high temp and disable their outputs and on that way the hall sensor signals would have an invalid sequence and the firmware detects by simple not driving the mosfets on that situation...

 

[pawepie]

I haven't looked at the the LCD3 schematic for any further info..but potentially the internal one could also be extended to the casing.

I don't have a photo where I put in my sensor, but following the idea on what hot rodders have done for the BBS02, I used silicone caulk to glue the sensor (see photo) inside the aluminum shell (though it could even go right on the motor itself for quicker/more accurate reading.

I know the cycle analyst uses a temperature sensor for the same reason.

the LCD3 is able to read temperature values...though I don't know how exactly. Perhaps adding in a temperature probe and cutting off/reducing the maximum power when it reaches a certain level?

I have a tank thermometer sensor I affixed into the motor casing with silicone caulk, but I haven't been cranking up the amps so haven't been monitoring the temperature for a while. It's a very manual process though (will attach photos when I am back home)

Yes, I now want to do what other systems implement: motor temperature reading and motor power reducing after certain temperature.
I thought the motor temperature was used because of nylon gears but now I understand that is also very important to avoid expressive demagnetization.
Also, I wounder if my nylon gear did fail because also of higher temperature - I remember I was riding at max power for long time when it failed.

I would like to seee your photos. I need to find a sensor and glue to the motor. Also maybe connecting to some free header pin on the motor controller (in the limit, to throttle connection).

So, motor controller can reduce the power as temperature increases. On LCD3 we should se the temperature as also define the start and end value of temperature, like: 65 degrees at start temperature and 75 at end value, where at middle (linear ramp) 70c, the power to motor would be cut in half/50%.

 

[jbalat]

Trying out my Android app as LCD Display, connected via Bluetooth to Motor Controller.

Thats pretty cool, can you control any of the settings on the motor like max amps, HVC and LVC ?

 

[MaartenL]

So I bought a Dutch Fat Bike from Switzz Bikes and just finished my built!

Fat 8.1 specs:
Wheels 26"
Tires: Kenda Juggernaut Sport 26″x4.00
Frame: Aluminium 6061
Disc Brakes: Tektro Aquila Mechanical Disc
Gears: 8 Speed Shimano Clarius
Chain: KMC -72
Cassette: 8 Speed HG41

Dropout / HUB spacing / Axel for rear wheel: 197mm and Switzz says I need 220mm!
Bracket for midmotor: 120mm

So I bought the Fatbike kit from www.future-bike.it

500 W option with 120mm bracket
Protection cage for motor
48V 17Ah battery in bottle form which can be removed
Race Control Display type VLCD6
Metal Gearings as standard
Speed sensor
42T with 10mm offset (installed this one)
42T standard
32T race torque thing I will never use...

Maxspeed is around 40km/h, than I pedal so fast the motor stops assisting...
I can really climb hard with this bike! So far one big LOVE for this built!
I did a test ride on a 18km technical, steep short climbing MTB track in The Netherlands and it was awesome!

Installation took some time to figure it all out and some issues:
-Battery could only be mounted upside down on two M5 bolts (so far no problems, but double check to lock the battery before riding)
-Speedsensor did not work but found some strong neodymium magnets which fixed the distance problem
-Motor would rest on a part sticking out from the motor on the left so I bought a wedge to fit in the middle
-The bolt which should fit on top did not fit because of the big diameter of my frame. I just did not use it....

Pictures!

Thanks for all support!

The only issue is still that I'm wondering if the motor doesn't lean too much on the edge of the frame / is able to move because I could not install the top bolt because of the big frame.

 

[Hillhater]

Trying out my Android app as LCD Display, connected via Bluetooth to Motor Controller...

This is very impressive !
A few questions if i may..
What firmware/software mods and settings are needed to use this app.
How is the blutooth module connected to the controller
Could this be extended to log data for later download or analysis ? (Distance, speed, amps volts etc).
Thanks again.
HH

 

[Hillhater]

I have another idea: I think silicon ics have operation temperature up to about 125c. And 8nside the motor, we have 3 of them, the hall sensors!!! So, maybe the have the functionality to detect high temp and disable their outputs and on that way the hall sensor signals would have an invalid sequence and the firmware detects by simple not driving the mosfets on that situation...

That may work, ..and i have another idea.
For $20 i bought a dual probe bluetooth temp monitor (for barbeque/ smoker use)
I could put one probe inside on the motor shell, and one probe inbetween battery cells, and that gives me real time data logging , temp vs time graphing, and adjustable alarm settings , for each probe , direct to my phone. !
..But i like to keep things simple ,...so i wont use that , .....but instead i might just stick some thermal temperature recording strips onto the motor when i have to open it up !

 

[feketehegyi]

Thats pretty cool, can you control any of the settings on the motor like max amps, HVC and LVC ?

It works currently only with factory stock firmware. However there're extra data when comparing to normal LCD:
pedal torque value, PAS, MOTOR, error, low voltage flags. I also write out the communication data from/to motor/lcd.
There's an extra thing there, that I do a trick to get pedal cadence. There's a magnet mounted on pedal crank arm, and the speed sensor is adjusted to receive its movement. Then with the magical 1667mm circumference it will give the pedal cadence/10. So, I built in to multiply this value by 10.
As I use the speed sensor for cadence RPM, I built in GPS module to get the GPS Speed - which looks quite fine to work.

 

[feketehegyi]

This is very impressive !
A few questions if i may..
What firmware/software mods and settings are needed to use this app.
How is the blutooth module connected to the controller
Could this be extended to log data for later download or analysis ? (Distance, speed, amps volts etc).
Thanks again.
HH

It uses currently the factory stock firmware. You only need to make/buy a male connector and put it into the LCD cable connector coming from the motor. I switch on the motor by shorting two pins there, and using for the communication the RX, TX, GND.
As my ordered HC05 BT module has not arrived yet I use the following workaround for Bluetooth communication
(RX, TX, GND) goes into Arduino -> Arduino is connected to my Laptop -> Laptop makes exchange on Arduino's serial with its Bluetooth's channel.
> Android phone is connected to laptop's Bluetooth.
Yes, it is absolutely the best way to log data - however that's not implemented yet.

 

[Hillhater]

Excellent Feketehegyl !
So once you have the BT module, the Arduino and laptop are eliminated. ?
Is it possible to pick up the connection from the controller via the spare leg of the "Y" connector on the speed sensor cable (i believe all the pin connections are replicated from the controller )
And would we then be able to retain the original display/controls ?
But did you also say this could be a hard wire UsB link, direct from the controller connection, to a smart phone... ( or tablet ?)

 

[feketehegyi]

Excellent Feketehegyl !
So once you have the BT module, the Arduino and laptop are eliminated. ?
Is it possible to pick up the connection from the controller via the spare leg of the "Y" connector on the speed sensor cable (i believe all the pin connections are replicated from the controller )
And would we then be able to retain the original display/controls ?
But did you also say this could be a hard wire UsB link, direct from the controller connection, to a smart phone... ( or tablet ?)

Thank you! Well, yes that's the target.
Please take care. This line is the LCD display cable, not the speed sensor one.
Here's my previous video where you can see it's connected via USB cable. So in this way, only an Arduino or any cheap serial TTL to USB converter is enough.
[youtube]LY7EsHFuqEI[/youtube]

 

[casainho]

I haven't looked at the the LCD3 schematic for any further info..but potentially the internal one could also be extended to the casing.

Better to be connected to the motor controller, because it is the one that will control the motor current that is the source for the heating. Also the temperature value can flow to LCD3 just like all other data.

Thanks for the photos.

 

[AZUR]

This is very impressive !
A few questions if i may..
What firmware/software mods and settings are needed to use this app.
How is the blutooth module connected to the controller
Could this be extended to log data for later download or analysis ? (Distance, speed, amps volts etc).
Thanks again.
HH

It uses currently the factory stock firmware. You only need to make/buy a male connector and put it into the LCD cable connector coming from the motor. I switch on the motor by shorting two pins there, and using for the communication the RX, TX, GND.
As my ordered HC05 BT module has not arrived yet I use the following workaround for Bluetooth communication
(RX, TX, GND) goes into Arduino -> Arduino is connected to my Laptop -> Laptop makes exchange on Arduino's serial with its Bluetooth's channel.
> Android phone is connected to laptop's Bluetooth.
Yes, it is absolutely the best way to log data - however that's not implemented yet.

Good work.
It would be interesting to have the log file in the garmin .fit format to be able to transfer the file either for strava or another program that store these type of information.
Thanks

 

[casainho]

I have another idea: I think silicon ics have operation temperature up to about 125c. And 8nside the motor, we have 3 of them, the hall sensors!!! So, maybe the have the functionality to detect high temp and disable their outputs and on that way the hall sensor signals would have an invalid sequence and the firmware detects by simple not driving the mosfets on that situation...

That may work, ..and i have another idea.

When I said an idea, I mean an idea of how TSDZ2 motor controller implements max temperature protection!!

As I think the max temperature protection seems to work at the very limit, I don't trust it because I think the motor will get demagnetized a bit, more and more, every time it get's to that very high temperature. Every demagnetization means less torque (for ever) for the same amount of electric power applied to the motor... it is like loosing battery capacity, as you will need to use more battery energy to make the same amount of kilometers -- so yes, loosing motor torque will be very expensive!! I wish I can find a way to measure the motor magnets "capacity", to verify my motors over the time (I mean, with a manual process, I am not thinking to use any sensor for this and connect to the motor controller).

 

[casainho]

Also it probably makes a differnece as to what rpm range you are running. I always run my motor in at least the top 80% of the rpm range for a given gear. I do not have a way of monitoring engine power output but I suspect riding this way reduces power output. It must because my 2ah battery lasts a long time (5 miles) and I am even undercharging it by about 2 volts.

I think if you are running this motor in lower rpm ranges then it would probably be wise to back off the amps. I think perhaps you can raise them a bit if you are always running in the upper rpm range though.

I know what you mean!!

On the firmware, I control the battery current as also motor phase current (yes, they are really different!!).

How I calc motor phase current:

 phase_current = battery_current/ PWM_duty_cycle;

Let's say that at motor startup (motor ramping speed up), at some point the measured battery current = 3 Amps (much lower than the 18 amps limit, right?) and duty_cycle is 0.1% (48V from battery * 0.1 = 4.8V applied to motor phases). The motor phase current is: 3 / 0.1= 30 Amps!! And that is why I am limiting also the motor phase current this way:

    if ((ui8_adc_battery_current > ui8_adc_target_battery_max_current) || // battery max current, reduce duty_cycle
        (ui8_adc_motor_phase_current > ui8_adc_target_motor_phase_max_current)) // motor max phase current, reduce duty_cycle
    {
      if (ui8_duty_cycle > 0)
      {
        ui8_duty_cycle--;
      }
    }

Motor phase current max value is defined on firmware config.h file (but user should not change it as it is a value that should be selected with careful):

#define ADC_MOTOR_PHASE_CURRENT_MAX 48 // 48 units = 30 amps

Also what you say about 80% max motor RPM, is because the generated voltage at motor terminals (BEMF) increase with RPM increase and at 80% RPM, it will be 48V*0.8 = 38.4V, only 9.6 volts of difference between battery voltage and motor phase voltage so the amount of current that can flow to motor, when compared to when motor is almost stopped at startup, is now much more limited. That is why on LCD3 the battery power value in watts shown is max of like 500 watts when my bicycle is running like at 35km/h but the max battery power is at startup with value like 950 watts.

 

[AZUR]

This is very impressive !
A few questions if i may..
What firmware/software mods and settings are needed to use this app.
How is the blutooth module connected to the controller
Could this be extended to log data for later download or analysis ? (Distance, speed, amps volts etc).
Thanks again.
HH

It uses currently the factory stock firmware. You only need to make/buy a male connector and put it into the LCD cable connector coming from the motor. I switch on the motor by shorting two pins there, and using for the communication the RX, TX, GND.
As my ordered HC05 BT module has not arrived yet I use the following workaround for Bluetooth communication
(RX, TX, GND) goes into Arduino -> Arduino is connected to my Laptop -> Laptop makes exchange on Arduino's serial with its Bluetooth's channel.
> Android phone is connected to laptop's Bluetooth.
Yes, it is absolutely the best way to log data - however that's not implemented yet.

Good work!
It would be good to have the log file in the garmin .fit format.
In this file format we can upload the files either for strava or another program to store those files.

I have all my log files since 2006 in the sporttracks program,in my computer from zonefivesoftware.com.

Thanks

 

[ThreeOnBoard]

Hi all,
I have had the TSDZ2 for nearly two years (maybe 5000kms) on my Kona Fire Mountain with no issues. Recently as I began from a stop I heard a snapping sound and now the crank turns quite easily and the TSDZ2's gears don't engage. It appears that the electric motor is still working but it's not turning something it should. I inspected the gears and found no obvious issues. The blue gear looked fine. I removed the casing from the other side and couldn't see any obvious issues.

Does anyone have a suggestion as to what has happened or how to troubleshoot it? Could it be something within the internal motor? Could it be a bearing?

Thanks in advance,
Grant

 

[jbalat]

You have set a world record for the blue gear. Just try to replace it anyway I couldn’t see anything wrong with mine either but that’s what it was.

 

[Hillhater]

Hi all,
I have had the TSDZ2 for nearly two years (maybe 5000kms) on my Kona Fire Mountain with no issues. Recently as I began from a stop I heard a snapping sound and now the crank turns quite easily and the TSDZ2's gears don't engage. It appears that the electric motor is still working but it's not turning something it should. I inspected the gears and found no obvious issues. The blue gear looked fine. I removed the casing from the other side and couldn't see any obvious issues.

Does anyone have a suggestion as to what has happened or how to troubleshoot it? Could it be something within the internal motor? Could it be a bearing?

Thanks in advance,
Grant

Hi Grant,..Welcome to the "'sphere " !!
You need to understand that inside the "blue gear" is a roller sprag bearing (one way clutch).
The plastic outer gear may be perfect, but its possible for the inner clutch to have failed preventing the motor drive reaching the crank gears.
So , yes its possible that replacing the complete blue gear assy will solve your problem
https://youtu.be/CTbDKN2GzNE
[youtube]CTbDKN2GzNE[/youtube]

 

[feketehegyi]

So once you have the BT module, the Arduino and laptop are eliminated. ?

So, my plan for the bluetooth module is to have these parts:

• https://www.ebay.com/itm/Wireless-S...&_sacat=0&_nkw=HC-05&LH_BIN=1&_from=R40&rt=nc

• https://www.ebay.com/itm/5x-level-c...el+shifter&_from=R40&rt=nc&_trksid=m570.l1313 One piece level shifter is enough.

• https://www.ebay.com/itm/DC-DC-Buck..._nkw=dc-dc+step+down&LH_BIN=1&_from=R40&rt=nc2 such regulators for having 5v and 3.3v from the big battery voltage

It's written that the HC05 module works on 3.3v TTL. But the Motor controller works on 5v TTL, so the level shifter is needed. Also a 5v and a 3.3v power source is needed therefore I plan to buy such 2 regulators.
They cost together approximately 5EUR or 5.8USD. Then a switch max 1EUR, and a poor man's cable connector for 0EUR.
For this latter I assume can the extension cable used as well: https://www.eco-ebike.com/collectio...oducts/extension-cable-for-tsdz2-speed-sensor We'd only need the male part of this. Unfortunately this kind of cable connector is rarity.
Then pack all those things together and attach to the frame and plug into the LCD cable connector - and use my android app as LCD display via bluetooth. So, this's my next plan to try out.

 

[feketehegyi]

This is very impressive !
A few questions if i may..
What firmware/software mods and settings are needed to use this app.
How is the blutooth module connected to the controller
Could this be extended to log data for later download or analysis ? (Distance, speed, amps volts etc).
Thanks again.
HH

It uses currently the factory stock firmware. You only need to make/buy a male connector and put it into the LCD cable connector coming from the motor. I switch on the motor by shorting two pins there, and using for the communication the RX, TX, GND.
As my ordered HC05 BT module has not arrived yet I use the following workaround for Bluetooth communication
(RX, TX, GND) goes into Arduino -> Arduino is connected to my Laptop -> Laptop makes exchange on Arduino's serial with its Bluetooth's channel.
> Android phone is connected to laptop's Bluetooth.
Yes, it is absolutely the best way to log data - however that's not implemented yet.

Good work!
It would be good to have the log file in the garmin .fit format.
In this file format we can upload the files either for strava or another program to store those files.

I have all my log files since 2006 in the sporttracks program,in my computer from zonefivesoftware.com.

Thanks

Thank you! I'll build into data log functionality. Probably a "CSV" format which can be transformed by the user to any other format.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comma-separated_values

 

[casainho]

It's written that the HC05 module works on 3.3v TTL. But the Motor controller works on 5v TTL, so the level shifter is needed. Also a 5v and a 3.3v power source is needed therefore I plan to buy such 2 regulators.
They cost together approximately 5EUR or 5.8USD. Then a switch max 1EUR, and a poor man's cable connector for 0EUR.
For this latter I assume can the extension cable used as well: https://www.eco-ebike.com/collectio...oducts/extension-cable-for-tsdz2-speed-sensor We'd only need the male part of this. Unfortunately this kind of cable connector is rarity.
Then pack all those things together and attach to the frame and plug into the LCD cable connector - and use my android app as LCD display via bluetooth. So, this's my next plan to try out.

I think you can go even further by making your app to also be able to turn on and off the TSDZ2 power. As I shared before, Stancecoke did a Bluetooth module that can also turn on and off TSDZ2 power: https://opensourceebikefirmware.bitbucket.io/development/Motor_controllers--BMSBattery_S_series--Bluetooh--DIY_Bluetooth_module.html

If your app could turn on and off the TSDZ2 power, then you could easily add a security layer, just like KT-LCD3 does: turn on the motor controller only if user inserts the correct password!

 

[feketehegyi]

If your app could turn on and off the TSDZ2 power, then you could easily add a security layer, just like KT-LCD3 does: turn on the motor controller only if user inserts the correct password!

Wow, yes that can be again an interesting upgrade. However I plan now to turn it on by a manual switch and later we'll see this upgrade.
I imagine a small black plastic box containing all electronics inside and a switch and the cable connector outside. Some size like matches box or a bit bigger what's needed by the components. The manual switch will turn on the motor, as well as the bluetooth module.

 

[casainho]

Testing TSDZ2 and LCD3 flexible OpenSource firmwares

So, just before the day that I would ride 75km on the mountain, where everyone says it is a tough ride, I did "burn" my TSDZ2 motor as I did explain here. Knowing that we would go to a very high point of the mountain and would be really bad if something would fail on my ebike, I though if I should trust on the flexible OpenSource firmwares of my own development. I really wanted to use the advanced features of this firmwares because I needed to optimize the battery range.... and so I did!!









The ride was perfect, TSDZ2 always working smoothly and strong. It took me about 6 hours and I took with me 2 batteries, in total of 900 watts/hours and I used 650 watts/hour. Most of time I limited on LCD3 the power to be 250W or even at 150W, because a bigger value was hard to drive on the very narrow paths and also I wanted to go in group with the other riders without electric bicycles. Using that low power was great because I got a very good battery range and also TSDZ2 did not get hot. But I also took advantage of the max power possible from the motor, and sometimes I used the max power and I was able to climb the very sharp paths were other professionals could not.

So to resume: I do trust well on TSDZ2 and LCD3 flexible OpenSource firmwares and the advanced features were very important for this long and hard ride, where I had to optimize battery range as also I prefer a constant electric power assist unlike with original firmware that gives variable power.