New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

BeachRider2016 said:
I thought the housing was metal ? I tapped on it with my finger and it felt metallic/aluminum.
Not sure if that was making the noise, but horizontal works.

I thought it was all some kind of metal, too, until I discovered that some of what appears to be casing is in fact RUBBER! Odd, but sure keeps weight down! And noise, too.

BeachRider2016 said:
Norton, its cool. Water under the bridge and evap.

:D

Glad yall got that sorted. 8)
 
I've been VERY busy on my ebike in the last two days, but it's finally mostly all sorted out.

I posted an update with lots of pictures to my bike's "build page", here, giving a broad outline of what I did, what still has to be done, etc.

However, some disappointments that merit discussion here:

1) The GodDamned hand-throttle DOES NOT WORK! X-( :evil:

2) Under significant load, the chain SKIPS TEETH on the 11T rear gear! It will do this with mere hand power! I'm WAY LESS THAN AMUSED. It does not skip or have any other fault in any other gear - AT ALL. I will need this gear! Some modest good news here is that when I picked gears for my rear cassette, I was going from 5 to 7 and I picked both of the highest two gears as taller than my bike's original tallest gear (14T), so I've got a one tooth improvement over that now when I run in gear 6. But I really want the 11T to be working for me! It LITERALLY jumps outward to skip. . . Does this mean I have the wrong chain? (I did buy a supposedly matching chain, but when I checked the original chain for wear, it proves to have no measurable wear.)

Your thoughts very welcome!
 
If there is a way to increase the tension in the derailleur it might help. Some have an adjustment screw for the spring tension. Shortening the chain might help too as long as it still fits on the largest sprockets.
 
Someone recently asked about how you get into the settings mode on the TSDZ2.

I now need to go through that, too, so I referred to my notes... When I first discovered this thread, I read the whole thing and kept notes along the way. This is from larsottar - WAY up-thread:

"PROGRAMMING" the settings:

start the engine by pressing the on button
press both the on and the button ("i" ?) for 3 seconds
press 4 times the button ("i" ?) until the menu select wheel diameter
in wheel diameter menu "of" press the + or - button until the correct value
menu 'cc number of wheel magnets, leave to 0001
select units' of measurement, press + or - to switch between km/ h or mile/ h
function 6 km/h press + ok - to activate or deactivate the function
limit 25 km / h press + ok - to activate or deactivate the speed limit
by quickly pressing the button, you can not turn on and turn off the light
display
press on button to turn the engine off and save your settings

Seems there are at least three advanced settings which are not explained in
video;

Sd - 25
A - 16
( ) - EUR

I suppose the "A - 16" is the amp setting, where one can increase the power of
a 250 W unit to 350 W? Would be interesting to know what effect the other
settings have and if any of them will allow for a more smooth assist.
 
RTIII said:
Under significant load, the chain SKIPS TEETH on the 11T rear gear!

Are you trying to give it significant power from a stand still in the 11T?
 
fechter said:
If there is a way to increase the tension in the derailleur it might help. Some have an adjustment screw for the spring tension. Shortening the chain might help too as long as it still fits on the largest sprockets.

I presume that was for me! ... The bike originally had a 52T and 28T and this is the same original chain from that; when in this combination it APPEARS to the untrained eye to "just fit", but then, I was paying more attention to the inside edge of the derailleur and not the rotation thereof, which I think would still have some room for adjustment. That is, I might be able to lose a few links and still have it be "long enough."

As for the derailleur, I don't know - didn't notice any other adjustments - and when I first started working on it, it worked fine, but it was very stiff, so I cleaned and lubricated it and now it moves freely - perhaps I inadvertently created this problem by loosening it up a bit?! :(

Thanks for your thoughts.
 
m4k3r said:
RTIII said:
Under significant load, the chain SKIPS TEETH on the 11T rear gear!

Are you trying to give it significant power from a stand still in the 11T?

No, I just discovered the problem while completing the work on the dual chainring and making sure everything was working OK. So, the bike was upside down and I was pedaling it with my hand on a pedal, just putting it through its paces and tweaking derailleur adjustment a little to make sure it all worked properly. It could be already spinning and I shift up into it from any lower gear and it would skip. If I lowered the torque to about zero, it would not skip, but if I added much at all, it would jump, and I could WATCH it move outward and leap! Not Fun!
 
On modern derailleurs there is that 'B' adjustment that is separate from the L and H adjustments.
And derailleurs have a range of cassette teeth and total teeth they are made for and there are long, medium and short cages to account for what you have for range.
It gets complicated.

It could be that antique der. just doesn't have the spring pressure it used to have, just like the rest of us !!! :lol:
 
New chain on part worn rear sprocket, the sprocket wears to suit the worn chain pitch length ( stretches as it gets worn ) and round off the tips of the sprocket, put an unworn chain on and it will now sit in the rounded section and won't grip. Moral of the story, change the chain a bit more often, its the cheapest part of the system.
 
Rt, when I was ghetto rigging the throttle none of the combination activated the motor. Kinda glad I did that before wasting $20 for a throttle. Maybe it has to do with programming to make it work?
 
BeachRider2016 said:
Rt, when I was ghetto rigging the throttle none of the combination activated the motor. Kinda glad I did that before wasting $20 for a throttle. Maybe it has to do with programming to make it work?

Might be... I mentioned this earlier in the thread,. but then I thought they had just bluffed me... the throttle can work for sure... I am getting to the bottom of it and will update, just been slammed.

Lost my keys in the sand at the beach today, clawed furiously/systematically in a grid for a hot 20 minutes! Finally found em. EXHAUSTED! haha
 
Waynemarlow said:
New chain on part worn rear sprocket, the sprocket wears to suit the worn chain pitch length ( stretches as it gets worn ) and round off the tips of the sprocket, put an unworn chain on and it will now sit in the rounded section and won't grip. Moral of the story, change the chain a bit more often, its the cheapest part of the system.

Hi Wayne, I'm fully prepared to believe that, but that's not my scenario.

The chain measures as good as new with one of those gadgets that I bought just for that job - who knows how accurate they are? (Comments very welcome about this. I don't object to running a new chain, but if the old one is truly as great as it both looks and measures by this device, then it's wasteful, and I well remember the lesson of the Lore Axe. 8) )

The gearset is brand new Shimano 11-28T cassette, zero miles of cycling before I figure this out, not even a few feet since I never got it up to high enough speed to call for top gear on the one test ride before discovery, and haven't used it in service since the discovery because I know jumping out under load is likely to cause damage. So... it's STILL a new gear!

I do have a new chain, though... But since the chain looks great and measures as new, I decided not to install it yet.

As an aside, I think I paid about exactly the same for my new Shimano cassette as my new chain - about $12. So, neither was expensive. My plan was to save the new one until the old one shows signs of wear.
 
You could always get the VLDC5 model with brakes and throttle, its just adding them to a model that came stock, or adding it to an xh-18 model.

Don't worry, should be able to enable everything on the controllers soon... for the DIYers out there...

tsdz2programming supplies.jpg
 
So, time for a pirep - a Pilot Report! 8)

Yesterday, the butterfly emerged from her chrysalis, and today we went on our first adventure together.

Recall, her job is to replace an automobile, so, this was to test running errands, and try and "do it all."

We started by visiting the T-Mobile store and paying their monthly annuity, and showing the bike off to the store manager, a lovely friend of mine of some 7 years or more. Getting there wasn't far but did cover a very steep freeway overpass. Then, off to my bank, not far, nothing much to mention, but the bankers like me for some odd reason and are very accommodating, letting me bring my bike into their small space. I got very pleasant comments from my young, beautiful, female teller about my bike helmet - we're friends since she started working there some 5 years ago or so. I'm sure she says nice things to ALL her customers, but it felt nice. Then, to the post office where some employee snapped at me about my bike, that I couldn't bring it in with me, which REALLY pissed me off - I wasn't being a burden to ANYONE! Asshole. Oh well... So, I had to keep a sharp eye on it.

Then, off to PG&E to pay the utilities, which I prefer to do in person because you pay $0.5 less but it costs them more to have a person do it, and I like to harass them about it. The way there was a LOT further with a lot more obstacles, and various road conditions, including two large overpasses and for the first time I got that sucker up to some really high speed. It was VERY OBVIOUS what benefit it was for the two new aluminum rims, properly trued. Last time I went there (not power assisted), on the downhill it was downright scary when I had to brake, but this time, No Problem! And even the straight ahead was smoother, too. . . It was also the first time to user higher assist levels - perfectly quiet - silent even! - smooth, ZERO NOISE. I also got a few chances to check things out on the flats. Once I got there, again, no problem bringing it in the store, and it even prompted a conversation with a guy who is now interested in this model - he wants one so he can ride with his three children but has back and other issues and can't pedal hard, but doesn't want a moped for various reasons including not wanting to encourage his children to ride mopeds. I gave him my card and said that if he contacts me, I'll point him here, etc!

Then, I had a decision or three to make; how the hell was I going to go WAY up town, to the north-east of Lake Merritt area from basically the edge of San Leandro, but way up in the hill area, near I-580? Hmmm... I decided to go into the barely familiar residential region in the hills east of the flats by the bay, but downhill from I-580. This proved a good choice. LOTS of hills, few cars, mostly empty, but the roads were typical Oakland; maybe a 3 to 4 on a scale of 1 - 10 with 10 being great and 1 being "4 wheel drive only." I could NEVER have done what I did without assistance! And, this helped me develop a real pattern of use. I ALWAYS start out with it either turned on but with no assist, or in eco mode, then bump up help as I both need it and as I gain speed. Rise to the crest of a hill and lower the assist as I get there... NEVER start off with high assist - don't want to trash that blue gear!

At one point, I hit a bump so large it actually knocked the battery off the battery's mounting bracket! And, it was LOCKED! But, no apparent damage, I only lost a few miles of the odometer reading, which happens when you don't turn the TSDZ2 off before powering down / disconnecting the battery. I also, after that, had the unit cut out twice for unknown reason(s) and it was VERY disconcerting! If it happened at the wrong moment, it could be a safety issue, but I never found a cause - so far at least. This is my ONLY issue with the unit. It may turn out to be a fault battery connection where the stock TSDZ2 has crimped on bullet connectors that I'm still using.

Eventually I made it to the Lake Merritt area and on a way down one of the hills I started to realize that my brakes are wearing out! I'm glad I was prudent and put my speed in check early, it could have gotten dangerous.

And so it was that I got to "Cycle Sports" bicycle shop on Grand Ave, about a block and a half from the Grand Lake Theater. The odometer said I'd done 11 miles, but I lost a couple of miles when the battery popped off, so who knows, maybe 15? The whole point in going there was to pay back this business WITH some business for having set me on the right path when I called them for help electrifying my ride. For no money, they set me on a path that led fairly directly to the TSDZ2, and I wanted to buy some accessories from them to help show appreciation. However, they didn't have the fenders in stock that the guy on phone said they'd have. Rats! They DID have a seat, however, so I bought one the guy recommended - that'll help with these cratered streets. I learned a lot and was there a long time, chatting with first the sales guy, then other customers, looking at bikes, and this one technician, Calvin, was especially interested in my ride and spent some time going over the issues with me. He disagreed with the assessment that I don't have enough air in there... We went through all kinds of things we have gone through here, where some have been advising me to find a different frame, etc. It was nice to get a professional opinion, and he'd show me a bike and point out features, so it was a great way to learn. His short advice was enjoy it as it is, and look for an opportunity to get another steel frame that's younger and will have more features I might like. Go with disk brakes, he urges, and I can certainly see the point, but you can't realistically adapt them to the bike I have now, he says, because it's not designed for the stresses.

(While I agree, it's NOT designed for the stresses, that doesn't' mean the stresses will be an issue for it. It's steel, and the main rearward (horizontal) tubes have indentations in them which greatly strengthen them. I have a hard time believing the stresses of a brake would do much to them, even over time.)

One thing that rather annoyed me is that the sales guy, Chris, didn't want to sell me newer / better brake pads! :shock: :shock: :shock: What?! ... I think maybe he doesn't want me to be happy with my bike so I'll "upgrade", since I did talk about maybe doing that eventually. Whatever the reason, there appeared to be new, modern shoes that would fit my calipers, but he said they wouldn't and didn't want to sell them to me, so all I ended up buying was a seat. ... He says there's no "frames" for the "replacement inserts" that fit my calipers. Maybe not refillable inserts, but I saw plenty of pad sets that were more modern than mine that looked like they'd work just fine. Instead, he wanted to sell me old-school types like I was already running - and which I can buy in bulk online if I wanted, and which, by the way, I have a few pairs of just laying around from disused bikes. ... I was profoundly disappointed! ESPECIALLY SO because I now realize that this new TSDZ2 is going to have me coming down LOTS of hills where I can't just coast and use the energy but have to stop due to cross traffic, bad roads, etc. Heck, I came down many dozens of significant hills on this ride, at least TEN I'd call very steep, and most none of them I could have ridden up without assistance! LOVE the TSDZ2, but it requires AWESOME BRAKES for this part of the world!

OK, done with that, now I was in busy down-town and I used the TSDZ2's power to get engaged in traffic as I never had before. I could now keep up! I had the power and used it! Woo Hoo! I got it up over 24 MPH on several occasions but never went for 6th gear for fear of ending up in 7th where it was popping out, and surely I never got to 7th, either, so who knows how fast she'll fly?! 8)

From there, met with a friend for a bit, then headed back, stopping off in the Fruitvale area at my local grocery and stocked up some 20 lbs or so of miscellaneous into my wire milk crate. Then, on my way out the parking lot, I caught a pedal on a curb and almost got knocked over, but I caught myself. Ouch! And embarrassing! But, no harm. So, on my way, now back down San Leandro Blvd, where I lost a wheel last Saturday, and I stopped in at the bike shop that helped me fix my trashed rim! They invited me to another party, tomorrow night! :) And, they found something of mine I'd lost when I was there, and gave it back to me - very nice! And they were right, it was mine. So, good memory of them! The rest of the ride, I was delighted I'd gone all that distance and wasn't all worn out, and, as a kind of last hurrah, I pushed it HARD, got up some speed, and went UP the over-pass / on-ramp at Hegenberger Road full tilt and HALF WAY UP glanced at the speed and it was over 20 MPH! I passed two bicyclists walking their bikes up the overpass and said to one, "PEDAL IT, GIRL! :D " I got a bewildered look! The car behind me didn't seem to mind because I was kicking ass! And on the downhill, I let it fly! IDK how fast I got it up to but it had to be up there - too many cars around to look at the speedo.

Finally home, it says 18 miles today - it was probably more like 22. :D ... I then put it on the charger. There's also a learning curve about this charger - recall, it's that ultra-expensive, super-high-tech charger, and I've only ever used it before to "top up" my brand new battery after shipping. When I plugged it in, I set it to "standard charge" which means 54.5v, what some might call "an 80% charge". According to the display, it took just over an hour and a half and loaded up 3.73 Ah and 200 watts into the battery. ...While I took the DZ2 out of the higher modes every chance I got and only used the heavier modes when needed, this was no standard day; I'd gone out of my way to take on long, steep hills just to see what would happen, and went WAY faster than I had to as opportunity permitted, for much the same reason - I want to learn the machine anew, as it is now in butterfly form! After the ride was done, I hit the button on the side of the battery that's supposed to show you pack charge level and it showed three green and one amber LED. It's a theoretical 12.76Ah battery, and with 3.73 Ah going into the battery, that's about 29%, so the one amber LED makes sense - not perfectly accurate, but then, it's not too bad given all the vagaries.

My take is that this was the perfect purchase for me, for what I want and need. I love it! It truly can replace a car in my scenario for very nearly 100% of what I need to do, and I can get exercise and run my errands and not spend crazy time doing it, either, nor will I arrive all sweaty (!!) - at least, not on a cooler day like today (70F). I also want to say, I never heard a peep out of my unit and I have pretty damned good ears. No Noise Trouble At All! :D I'd say this unit's early days with issues of noise are now safely past. Continuous improvement has its place!
 
eyebyesickle said:
You could always get the VLDC5 model with brakes and throttle, its just adding them to a model that came stock, or adding it to an xh-18 model.

Don't worry, should be able to enable everything on the controllers soon... for the DIYers out there...

View attachment 1

Great - how much is the kit? We DIYers are anxiously awaiting more updates! :D
 
Guys the TSDZ2 is not really set up for needing brake cutouts nor throttles. Before you go and spend a whole lot of wasted time finding out whether it does need these items, go and ride it for say 100 miles, you will learn and understand its merits and problems, then you can decide whether that time and investment is really worth while.

I substantiate that reasoning by saying that the Bafung series do need throttle and brake cut outs as well as tinkering with the programming to suit your riding preferences The TDSZ is a different beast altogether, much less powerful, stops engine power the instant you stop pedaling unlike the Bafung which always has a momentary delay, has a very easy small button right beside your hand which you can alter the power output almost seamlessly much like a throttle and is designed to not power the bike on its own, but together with your cycling power, to enhance your riding experience.

If you want a powered bike to simply whisk you to your destination on mainly roads, then the Bafung is king, known quantity, well researched and pretty bullet proof. If you want technical riding on mainly off road or you just want simple ease of use with some ability to put in a decent days excercise, then the TDSZ is for you.
 
Wayne,
Thanks for the comparison.
I want this:
Waynemarlow said:
....The TDSZ is a different beast altogether, much less powerful, stops engine power the instant you stop pedaling .....If you want technical riding on mainly off road or you just want simple ease of use with some ability to put in a decent days excercise, then the TDSZ is for you.
But I also want a throttle. :)
Also there is talk of factory 18A motor controllers !
What about noise differences?
Do you have any experience with the BBSHD?
 
A P.S. to my pilot report from yesterday:

I was amazed how well the VLCD-5 did in bright sunlight. I had been concerned I'd need some type of visor for it, but no, it was just fine.

Also, power transition was seamless and quiet. To stop adding power was sufficiently close to instantaneous as to be completely unnoticeable. Similarly, adding power was also sufficiently close to instantaneous and only on a few moments when I jumped multiple power levels did I notice any kind of sharp transition. These were typically uphill sections when I jumped from tourist to turbo.

I agree; a throttle is completely unnecessary - under ordinary riding circumstances. The reason I want a throttle is as an emergency backup in case I'm injured or something like that, so I can get home, or to some form of care, if need be. A friend of mine was once out riding and had an incident where they were injured but could perhaps have "moped-ed" in to get care but instead had to wait hours to be noticed and for help to arrive - she tells a harrowing tale I don't want to experience myself. Having a "moped" capability could in some instances be a life saver, or quality of life saver. And since the unit is capable of it, I say why not have the throttle in my bag of emergency supplies?
 
eyebyesickle said:
Man, yeah that wind resistance can be a killer. Well, a little more than resistance there, huh? :lol: NO THANKS for me hahah. I need something more than a TSDZ2 for that, but hey

Had a chat with MARCO @ future-bike and have to say he is a great guy. I am ordering one of the black protection carters for the motor, and also a copper gear to test, which I will have to load up on if they are good! Yaaaay. The 48v500w is the same controller as from china... love it when someone is up front, how refreshing.

They also make 100mm AND 120mm fat bike kits, so that is AWESOME (pictured with black guard)



http://www.future-bike.it/

there is the website... he responded within 24hrs, very professional, emailed, proceeded to skype to sort details, pending a paypal invoice... everything is very above board, and you can see by the fabrication these guys are serious. very nice, and great to see this lil spot being filled. I had no idea! Now, if I can get them to ship me a pair of ENKO running shoes with the parts, I will be the happiest man alive!

If you don't know about enko running shoes...just....don't. Sorry, a lil off topic myself!


Is there really a kit for 120mm fat bikes? Cant find it from their website. That would be nice kit for my Canyon Dude.
 
Waynemarlow said:
Guys the TSDZ2 is not really set up for needing brake cutouts nor throttles. Before you go and spend a whole lot of wasted time finding out whether it does need these items, go and ride it for say 100 miles, you will learn and understand its merits and problems, then you can decide whether that time and investment is really worth while.

I substantiate that reasoning by saying that the Bafung series do need throttle and brake cut outs as well as tinkering with the programming to suit your riding preferences The TDSZ is a different beast altogether, much less powerful, stops engine power the instant you stop pedaling unlike the Bafung which always has a momentary delay, has a very easy small button right beside your hand which you can alter the power output almost seamlessly much like a throttle and is designed to not power the bike on its own, but together with your cycling power, to enhance your riding experience.

If you want a powered bike to simply whisk you to your destination on mainly roads, then the Bafung is king, known quantity, well researched and pretty bullet proof. If you want technical riding on mainly off road or you just want simple ease of use with some ability to put in a decent days excercise, then the TDSZ is for you.

I totally get where you are coming from, and after riding it around, I actually mentioned I felt safe without them. However, I think no matter what, it is a needed feature, just from a safety point of view... not to mention just liking the whole clean package and the ability to integrate my own choice e-brakes...

I have used BBS extensively and still prefer to tinker with this a bit. Especially now that I can get em high power and put a stronger gear in them. No problem now! As expensive as a BBS after I fix it up, but I still like it better! To each their own I guess!
 
I will tell you what... I had to make this for myself...

View attachment futurebiketsdzusaorderform.pdf

I have all the TSDZ2 extras listed that he offers (other than controllers, etc, which you can get anywhere)... If you are making an order, I recommend getting a metal gear at least, since it won't add much to shipping. The prices are set @ 1 unit, and I left the shipping blank.

Just adjust the quantity and price, input your information, and send it to him @ info@future-bike.it

That has been the easiest and quickest way to do business for me. I have some coming too pretty soon, but I am super jealous of your CANYON, so don't bother me :twisted: :lol: hahahaha





anttipaa said:
Is there really a kit for 120mm fat bikes? Cant find it from their website. That would be nice kit for my Canyon Dude.


Man, I am like a little forum helper elf for real. I need a girlscout badge! 8) HAHAHAH


**** edits the post to pat himself on the back again ***** HAHAHA yes people, I am certifiably crazy
 
Thank you eyebyesickle! Yes it would be wise to order that gear also. I read all pages of this thread but im not sure what kit to order. Should I buy 48v 500w? What is max battery voltage? I like the looks of xh18 display but does it fit to handlebar with left brake lever? Xh18 dont support throttle? Any reason to buy vlcd5?

120mm conversion kit costs 110e now. :wink:
 
anttipaa said:
Thank you eyebyesickle! Yes it would be wise to order that gear also. I read all pages of this thread but im not sure what kit to order. Should I buy 48v 500w? What is max battery voltage? I like the looks of xh18 display but does it fit to handlebar with left brake lever? Xh18 dont support throttle? Any reason to buy vlcd5?

120mm conversion kit costs 110e now. :wink:

It appears that the Xh-18 is for the right hand handlebar.

I MUCH prefer the VLCD-5 for several reasons, one of which is because the display is removable so I don't have to be at risk some poor person / drug adict, etc, thinks its a generic item that they can steal and get money for, and, of course, because the Xh-18 won't fit on my handlebars.

I have the 48V, 500W and like it very much.
 
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