New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

[Patoruzu]

>Where and how much was this factory (?) 18A version of this motor and is it good to 100 RPM cadence ?

I ordered 500W 48v from Alibaba.
The sticker on the motor says 48v 18A

Fast cadence was posible. But with 9spd and front 42T at 40km/h I am pedaling (effortlessly) already too fast. Need > 42T to go faster with a comfortable cadence.

> Does the xh18 allow a high MPH top speed, or did you have to change wheel diameter to 'trick' the speedo display?

The max assisted configurable speed is 45km/h.
I have not tried to fake the wheel size (28")
I guess that limit could be further increased with the software posted earlier in June.
It would be nice if that software would be able to enable displaying wh and v (as seen in some earlier video)

>Where and how much was your B/A battery Pack !?!
Also Alibaba. How much I am not sure. I bought two packs, one without cells (but with battery management/balancing board). I also included the bike mounts for the back wheel. I think that increased the delivery cost (not a good idea to ship lithium batteries, which require special carriers, with big things which can be delivered cheaper per volume, but I wanted something I cold use immediately )


>Did the motor and pack come with matching connectors?
The battery pack would come with any connector of my choice.
But I did not know which connector the motor had. The motor came with the connector you normally see in the pics (I doubt those cables support 18A ). I had to solder a new battery connector. In the long run, I will probably see if I could upgrade the motor cable and connector instead.

> Back in June 27 in this thread I posted a kWh - power meter that I plan to use when I want to check on the battery pack.

Found it. I think I bought something similar for my DIY multicopter. Hope it supports 13s 18a
But AFAIR, it has no memory and will be useful for single trips only. But i can take notes and sum up later.
The 1500wh@48v measuring will take many trips (>200km at level 2 I hope)

>Bungee? For towing? IDK... If either of you let go while it's stretched.....
Yes. The person being towed holding it by the hand, and releasing it when required (otherwise it would be dangerous ) a cheap solution would be what is used to walk the dogs, but I have seen similar things used in competitions (to pass kinetic force to another team member)

 

[RTIII]

I had a "battery flame-out" with my TSDZ2. Read up about it here:

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=88943&p=1302530#p1302530

The vendor says they're shipping a new BMS straight away.

 

[matte2k]

Thanks for great respond on all of my questions before!
Just ordered a kit 350w 36v kit from PswPower on Aliexpress.
Anyone know what size the bullet connectors are for the battery?
I already have a battery and dock and need to solder connectors on to this one.

 

[eyebyesickle]

yeah, I butchered it. and look at those pedals HAHAHA... this is why bicycle guys hate me so much hahahahahaha. I have always wanted to try the hub mid drive combo hahahahah



I WANNA GO FAST

:lol:

 

[RTIII]

I WANNA GO FAST

:lol:

What's your tire diameter, chainring and tallest rear gear?

I'm running 52T / 11T on a 27" tire for a theoretical 28.9 MPH at a 90 PRMP cadence. What you got?! 8)

 

[eyebyesickle]

I WANNA GO FAST

:lol:

What's your tire diameter, chainring and tallest rear gear?

I'm running 52T / 11T on a 27" tire for a theoretical 28.9 MPH at a 90 PRMP cadence. What you got?! 8)

=)

52/11 on a 26" @ 100 rpm....

but then I got 80amps shooting to the rear hub too! HAHAHA

 

[RTIII]

I WANNA GO FAST

:lol:

What's your tire diameter, chainring and tallest rear gear?

I'm running 52T / 11T on a 27" tire for a theoretical 28.9 MPH at a 90 PRMP cadence. What you got?! 8)

=)

52/11 on a 26" @ 100 rpm....

but then I got 80amps shooting to the rear hub too! HAHAHA

OOPS! I see that last night when I posted, I was looking at the WRONG gear chart (I've created several), but now, referencing the correct numbers, I see my theoretical top speed (as outlined above) is 34.2 MPH - Ahhhh, That's Better! 8)

The math says YOUR theoretical speed with 26", 52T and 11T at 100 PRPM is 36.8 MPH. So, if you can get to 100 PRPM, you've got me beat by 2.6 MPH... Your 26" wheel hurts you but the 100 PRPM helps. SURE You've got assistance beyond 90? Is this a parameter you can control?

RT

 

[Norton]

...The sticker on the motor says 48v 18A

....I posted a kWh - power meter ...
...AFAIR, it has no memory and will be useful for single trips only. But i can take notes and sum up later.
The 1500wh@48v measuring will take many trips (>200km at level 2 I hope)
....

Thanks for the great reply and the tips about shipping a battery pack alone.
And the motor sticker !
And "1500Wh @ 48V" !!

Wow! I want these things ! That's a B/A battery!

The kWh / Power meter is good for 130 A and 60V, so they say...
You could take phone pics at each shut down. Good point that it is only measuring one cycle.
I plan on using mine during the early days to see if I got what I bought, but then just occasionally after that to plot degradation.

 

[daenny]

I was looking at these for monitoring my battery:

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/50A-New-TK15-Professional-Precision-Battery-Tester-for-LiFePO-Coulomb-Counter-Free-Shipping-with-Tracking-Number/32702066121.html

They say "Automatic memory function when power down", this would be useful if you have to reset manually or it detects reset if the new voltage is higher than the previous or something. Does anybody have experience with these?

 

[Patoruzu]

Very happy with my battery/motor combo.
I did this weekend a 150 km trip through rivers, forest and lakes (=very hilly). Bike fully loaded (including driver) about 150 kg. Pulling my gf loaded bike uphill (another 80 kg, for towing ended up using one of the many bungees I had to fix load onto the bike, very easy). Running on level 4 most of the time. And additionally keeping two 2 5" screens phones used for navigation (the battery has a USB port) fully charged.

Just on arrival back home the xh18 showed me low/red charging level.
I ignore how many more km remain. But 150 under these conditions is great.

I AM NOT SO HAPPY ABOUT THE XH18 THOUGH.

I read someone here saying that if it is not turn off with the xh18 power button the trip odometer would reset. I tested that turning off the battery and also by removing the battery and could not reproduce this problem. However

-if not moving for a certain and yer undefined amount of minutes it goes to sleep automatically. Only the display! The motor would continue at the same level of assistance.
The only way to turn the display on again is switching the battery off and on again.
-My trip odometer would reset to 0 at some stops, under yet unknown conditions. About 6 times.
-Similar to the above point, the whole xh18 would factory reset, a little less often (twice during this trip). This would not only reset both odometers to 0, but also my settings for wheel size, max assisted speed, etc.

Another thing I disliked, the screw to fix the display, does not tighten a loop around the handlebar but instead tightens against the handlebar (scratching it)

These are no goes. I will probably try out the vlhc5 display instead (or however it was called)

TORQUE SENSOR
It seems to be automatically configured every time the pedaling starts. A very heavy start would then only assist under heavy pedaling. My guess so far.

When I am not getting enough assistance fully halting and start pedaling again solves the issue. Happened to me about 5 times in this trip. I now always pay attention to start pedaling slowly, can live with it.

 

[Triketech]

We put about 400 miles on a TSDZ2 36V 350W motor mounted to an HPV FS26 trike last month.

This configuration was aimed at provisioning the lowest weight Pedelec (Torque, not cadence) that could give acceptable boost performance to climb hills. It passed the audition but barely.

Net weight gain for the motor was about 5.7 Lbs, and the 36V usable 240WH battery added another 4.4 lbs with mount. Efficiency is the primary consideration with a "tiny drive".

• Torque Sensed PAS is the most efficient human input method for the majority of riders
• Mid drive gearing advantages provide highest overall efficiency
• Limited Peak Power avoids significant power losses from aero drag

On such a small battery to get a 60 mile range in the flatlands means 4WH/Mile, or 40 mile range in the hills means 6WH/Mile. Achieved in our case.

But its not without the quality problems or excessive gear noise issues. Quality problems are something they're working through just like Bafang and Bosch have done.

Wrote an article with a few pictures and a video. The sound on the video is from the lead trike with the TSDZ2. The camera trike has a MAC 10T with Phaserunner and is virtually silent.

http://www.triketech.com/Drivetrain/PowerAssist/MidDrive_TSDZ2.html

 

[RTIII]

Hi Patoruzu, welcome to the thread and thanks for the report.

Very happy with my battery/motor combo.
I did this weekend a 150 km trip through rivers, forest and lakes (=very hilly). Bike fully loaded (including driver) about 150 kg. Pulling my gf loaded bike uphill (another 80 kg, for towing ended up using one of the many bungees I had to fix load onto the bike, very easy). Running on level 4 most of the time. And additionally keeping two 2 5" screens phones used for navigation (the battery has a USB port) fully charged.

The extra 80kg you were towing - was this on a second bike?! Interesting! Photos!

I think we'd all be interested in your system's voltage, wattage, amperage and battery Amp-hours (Ah), please.

Just on arrival back home the xh18 showed me low/red charging level.
I ignore how many more km remain. But 150 under these conditions is great.

I'm still on my first cup of coffee, but I think that's about 93.75 miles! If so, that is fantastic! 8)

I AM NOT SO HAPPY ABOUT THE XH18 THOUGH.
I read someone here saying that if it is not turn off with the xh18 power button the trip odometer would reset. I tested that turning off the battery and also by removing the battery and could not reproduce this problem. However

-if not moving for a certain and yer undefined amount of minutes it goes to sleep automatically. Only the display! The motor would continue at the same level of assistance.
The only way to turn the display on again is switching the battery off and on again.

Damn, that would be VERY annoying indeed!

-My trip odometer would reset to 0 at some stops, under yet unknown conditions. About 6 times.
-Similar to the above point, the whole xh18 would factory reset, a little less often (twice during this trip). This would not only reset both odometers to 0, but also my settings for wheel size, max assisted speed, etc.

I have the VLCD-5 and it has never factory-reset on me, though I have had cut-out issues that sound somewhat similar to what you've experienced. You might read my reports of my battery troubles reported here and see how much they sound like your issues: (maybe scroll until you see photos of the battery pack taken apart so you don't have to read the whole thread - unless you want to, of course!)

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=88943&p=1303431#p1303431

Another thing I disliked, the screw to fix the display, does not tighten a loop around the handlebar but instead tightens against the handlebar (scratching it)

I was wondering about that, thanks, and, by the way, I've never seen any data on what diameter of handle bar tubes are supported! -shrug-

These are no goes. I will probably try out the vlhc5 display instead (or however it was called)

Word is from other owner reports that the wiring loom is different - ask your vendor to check and sell you the other loom while you are at it, otherwise, more frustration when it won't hook up!

TORQUE SENSOR
It seems to be automatically configured every time the pedaling starts. A very heavy start would then only assist under heavy pedaling. My guess so far.

I can confirm that and give you some caution here...

Yes, every time it turns on it goes through a torque sensor calibration. It's important to not have any torque on the system when it does this, otherwise it calibrates wrong.

Also, there are a number of owner reports where a gear inside - the infamous "blue gear" (a blue colored nylon gear that runs against a steel or other metal gear) - gets "wiped out" when too much torque is asked of it at too low a speed. It's nylon so it can run silently, but it's not so durable at low speed / high torque. A company in Italy is sourcing a replacement gear in copper. But preserve your original blue gear by treating it gently at low speeds. My strategy - and I have lots of steep hills and heavy loads, too - is to get it moving with either no or only "eco mode" assistance and get it up to speed before upping the assistance level. Make sure your gearing you're using (front and rear) is such to keep the speeds up. If the hill gets a lot steeper, down-shift early!

 

[RTIII]

We put about 400 miles on a TSDZ2 36V 350W motor mounted to an HPV FS26 trike last month.

This configuration was aimed at provisioning the lowest weight Pedelec (Torque, not cadence) that could give acceptable boost performance to climb hills. It passed the audition but barely. [...snip...]

Hi Triketech,

thanks for your report. Read your article and found it interesting! ... My experience was very different from yours regarding noise. Mine is absolutely quiet, have never heard a peep out of it and I have very sharp ears. So, either they've solved this or it's a quality control issue. So, I'm curious, how long ago did you buy your unit? And, I'm thinking, I bought a new-to-market 48v, 500W system, but the vendor kept trying to push a lower voltage / wattage system on me, and so perhaps there's a lot of stock out there that they need to sell and are having trouble selling since the 500W has come on the market - and so, maybe your unit is much older production, from before when they might have fixed the noise issues? ... I can't say, but if anyone wants to come to my place and check out my system to confirm, they're welcome. ... In fact, I'm hosting a social gathering this coming Saturday evening, starting at 6PM in Oakland - PM me for directions! (It's a pot-luck, too...)

I haven't had the equipment on hand to measure grades, but I've taken my system on some pretty darned steep hills here in Oakland - hills I wouldn't want to WALK up, and found I could ride them at over 10 MPH without much trouble. In fact, braking down the other side was more of a problem!

...I can get it over 20 MPH pretty easily, but getting over 25 is harder. Your comment about 78 PRPM is perhaps telling. Rumor has it (from other owner reports upthread here) that the TSDZ2 reaches its cadence limit at 90 (eye claims 100), and I'm thinking that's the motor's RPM limit being reached - you'll need a different chainring / rear gears - to change when you reach it! And so I'm wondering if maybe it's being reached a bit earlier since I SHOULD have the power to drive it up to about 34 MPH or so. When I plug in 78 into my spreadsheet, it ends up showing me that with my gearing that's exactly what's happening - the motor's running at top RPM at roughly my 25 MPH situation and so beyond that it's all me! ... In other words, your data matches the reality I see in my numbers, so I'm inclined to agree with it.

The data I have read about how much boost does not match what you've written. My data matches for Eco and Tourist, but for Fast isn't 300% but rather 200% (a factor of 2), and "Turbo" is supposedly a factor of 3.68. I think I got this by downloading the ENTIRE Tongsheng website (using a tool called wget - you can look it up) and then parsing through the resulting electronic debris (most of which I can't read because most is in Chinese). ... I'm wondering what you think of my numbers and I'm wondering where you got your numbers!

Regards,
RT

 

[anttipaa]

I got an offer from Future-Bike Italy.
-Tsdz2 48v 500w
-120mm conversion kit
-Metal gear
-Shipping

Kit comes with this LCD6 display. http://www.tsbicycle.net/products_detail/productId=106.html
Total price is 800e. I think thats on a high side. If I buy kit directly from China I can save 100e. I like the looks of that display. Does anyone have it?

 

[Triketech]

...I can get it over 20 MPH pretty easily, but getting over 25 is harder. Your comment about 78 PRPM is perhaps telling. Rumor has it (from other owner reports upthread here) that the TSDZ2 reaches its cadence limit at 90 (eye claims 100), and I'm thinking that's the motor's RPM limit being reached - you'll need a different chainring / rear gears - to change when you reach it! And so I'm wondering if maybe it's being reached a bit earlier since I SHOULD have the power to drive it up to about 34 MPH or so. When I plug in 78 into my spreadsheet, it ends up showing me that with my gearing that's exactly what's happening - the motor's running at top RPM at roughly my 25 MPH situation and so beyond that it's all me! ... In other words, your data matches the reality I see in my numbers, so I'm inclined to agree with it.

Actually the rider needs longer legs. At 5'2" she runs a higher cadence with shorter cranks and we just gear for it. Her current GI range is 17.9-120.2. We keep track of cadence and other data.

Also use Ride With GPS to get elevation changes and trip stats.

Others we've met with have mentioned theirs were much quieter. The secondary gearset in this one (always driven by cranks) looked more like a saw than a gear. Way wrong contact angles on gear teeth.

Supposedly my motor was "built to order" about a week after the order was confirmed. Had to do a bank transfer (added cost) for payment. Once DHL had it in their hands it took 3 days to arrive on my door.

I did partially disassemble it for inspection. There is a seal, about 60-70 mm that seals the secondary gears from the "output puck" the sprocket spider attaches to. The seal does the job at the expense of a lot of drag. The large gear is about 60 teeth, can't find my notes on that (!!!) but the little gear has 10 teeth. It possible the shaft bores could have been mis-aligned but even so, the gear angles are way too shallow.

Shallow angles offer stout bases for teeth with less deflection for higher sheer strength. They have a longer "sliding action" which with lubrication gives good hard abuse life at the expense of noise and efficiency. About 20° Pressure Angle would have been good and a little tighter pitch.

Improvements always come at a cost. For example, 5:1 belt drive with a felt seal rather than rubber seal, ack it with IR3077 FETs and add some fins to cool, 12 AWG power wire please, change the Spider Bolt Circle from 75mm to 74 mm with a way to mount 74mm Chainrings, revise the software with a superuser plug-in version to tune. Do that reliably and the resale price could afford a 50% bump.

 

[RTIII]

I got an offer from Future-Bike Italy.
-Tsdz2 48v 500w
-120mm conversion kit
-Metal gear
-Shipping

Kit comes with this LCD6 display. http://www.tsbicycle.net/products_detail/productId=106.html
Total price is 800e. I think thats on a high side. If I buy kit directly from China I can save 100e. I like the looks of that display. Does anyone have it?

I doubt you can get that metal gear directly from Tongsheng but if you can, please confirm that; I / we were / are under the impression that's an innovation from Future-Bike. In any event, they sell that for around 45 or so Euro.

As for the display, no, but it has not as much data on it - and there's no button for asking for more, either, just on-off, up-down power. I rather like the VLCD-5, though I agree it's big by comparison.

 

[Patoruzu]

Hi Patoruzu, welcome to the thread and thanks for the report.
The extra 80kg you were towing - was this on a second bike?! Interesting! Photos!

Well, I was thinking to use an extensible dog leash somehow fixed onto the back side of the bike (to let my companion take it and release it upon wish). But I found nothing suitable.
But while already on the trip I got illuminated while waiting for my GF on top of a hill

I had many bike bungees/elastics with me. Before a hill and while pedaling I would simply extend my arm to the side offering the bungee and my GF would also grab it. Then I would accelerate while letting my arm being pull backwards. I have not foreseen it but being elastic was better than a retractile rope (dog leash), that gives us feedback into our arms and perfect control until the bungee gets gradually its full length (mine was around 1.5m plus my arm length. My gf arm was close to her handlebar)

Any of us could release it anytime in case of feeling insecure, but that never happened.
The bungee is relatively short (and only 25 cm when released) so no risk of it getting into wheels, and no power to hurt your hand if abruptly released. But I would feel when the bungee was not too tense anymore and pull a little as a signal for her to release it. I never needed to watch backwards. Unfortunately I would need a third person to take pictures of this Hope the explanation was clear. Extremely simple, natural, effective and cheap

And yes, 80kg was about GF + her loaded bike.

Once I set up a WH meter I will be able to give a better/technical view about consumption.

 

[matte2k]

Does anyone know the size of the Bullet connectors?

 

[Patoruzu]

I was looking at these for monitoring my battery:

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/50A-New-TK15-Professional-Precision-Battery-Tester-for-LiFePO-Coulomb-Counter-Free-Shipping-with-Tracking-Number/32702066121.html

They say "Automatic memory function when power down", this would be useful if you have to reset manually or it detects reset if the new voltage is higher than the previous or something. Does anybody have experience with these?

That is a great solution!
The display is detached from the current meter, therefore you need only thin cables reaching the handlebar.

I will go for it too.

 

[christiank]

The crank just fell off with a part of an axle. Further investigations shown that there was a welding defect. Yes, there was a welded seam in the axle! I am not a mechanic guru but having in mind torsional loads of this unit, I can figure out that the axle of a bottom bracket is not a good place for welded seams.

Same happened here in Austria this morning.
Accelerated out of the saddle at about 10mi/h - a second later I flipped left over the bar.

This TSDZ2 hat 3500km on the crank, with ~1000 Meters accent per 100km

I'm not amused :wink:

Images here:
https://www.pedelecforum.de/forum/index.php?threads/tsdz2-sfm-tretlagerwelle-gebrochen.49460/

 

[RTIII]

The crank just fell off with a part of an axle. Further investigations shown that there was a welding defect. Yes, there was a welded seam in the axle! I am not a mechanic guru but having in mind torsional loads of this unit, I can figure out that the axle of a bottom bracket is not a good place for welded seams.

Same happened here in Austria this morning.
Accelerated out of the saddle at about 10mi/h - a second later I flipped left over the bar.

This TSDZ2 hat 3500km on the crank, with ~1000 Meters accent per 100km

I'm not amused :wink:

Images here:
https://www.pedelecforum.de/forum/index.php?threads/tsdz2-sfm-tretlagerwelle-gebrochen.49460/

Hi Christian,

my Deutsche skills aren't quite good enough to follow it all, but going over the handlebars can't be fun! Luckily, looks like only a scuffed leg and not a broken one! And, a bit of walking, I suppose!

r0mko was right about one thing: a crankshaft is no place for a welded seam unless truly forced to do so. It should be a single forged piece, properly hardened to be strong but not brittle. So, I'm wondering, now that you've seen it apart, does there appear to be any good reason they made it from multiple parts? Seems crazy to me! Why weld it if you don't HAVE to?!

Also, does it appear that someone could replace the axle at, say, a competent bike shop?

Glad you're OK, looking for more rider reports from you! BTW, that 3500km would take me over two years! I'm not entirely sure since I don't have the right sensors on board (or app on my phone yet!) to get the changes in elevation, but I'd bet that in the only barely over a week I've had mine operational, I've done over 200m in accent in only about 72km or so, if I've done the conversions right (maybe 600' in about 45 miles). Your posting makes me go "Hmmmm!"

RT

 

[tinasdude]

Second day reading this thread. Thanks for all the work that has been done. I have a few questions. 1) Is there a recommended vendor to purchase the 500W 18A that will allow a 52 V battery? 2) I have a 68mm BB bike. Will I be able to move the motor 5mm to the non drive side and ever so slightly improve chain line?3) Is the chain line better, worse, or about the same as the BBSHD? I am glad I found this before building a used DH woods and trail bike. This seems like an ideal motor for it. I will not get a throttle for it. I find I cheat myself too much when I have one, and it is more of a fun fat moped. A very fun fat moped. I think this motor will give me a greater assist experience and keep an old person getting some exercise. I am impressed with the apparent great distance that is being gotten from this motor and how efficient it is. I once again want to thank you all for the information posted and the work you have done.

 

[RTIII]

Second day reading this thread. Thanks for all the work that has been done. I have a few questions. 1) Is there a recommended vendor to purchase the 500W 18A that will allow a 52 V battery? 2) I have a 68mm BB bike. Will I be able to move the motor 5mm to the non drive side and ever so slightly improve chain line?3) Is the chain line better, worse, or about the same as the BBSHD? I am glad I found this before building a used DH woods and trail bike. This seems like an ideal motor for it. I will not get a throttle for it. I find I cheat myself too much when I have one, and it is more of a fun fat moped. A very fun fat moped. I think this motor will give me a greater assist experience and keep an old person getting some exercise. I am impressed with the apparent great distance that is being gotten from this motor and how efficient it is. I once again want to thank you all for the information posted and the work you have done.

1) Scroll back a day or three; there are only two people here who've reported getting one, as I recall, one got his direct from Tongsheng, and the other, I THINK, got theirs from Future Bike in Italy.

2) It naturally brings the chainline inboard as possible - the only way to do better would be to modify your bottom bracket.

3) No data.

BTW, I got the throttle, from a second vendor (not when I bought the main unit) for emergency purposes and it does NOT work!

Like you, I don't want a moped, I got this for the exercise! And, it's working!

 

[Patoruzu]

1) Scroll back a day or three; there are only two people here who've reported getting one, as I recall, one got his direct from Tongsheng, and the other, I THINK, got theirs from Future Bike in Italy.

I ordered my 48v 500w from here:
https://conhismotor.aliexpress.com/store/513166
on arrival I the sticker on the motor said 48V 18A
Using it with 13s9p.

Any idea if adding Constant Voltage to the battery would improve the experience? (though the kit will probably think the battery is always full). MAybe a dc-dc converter to 14s

 

[tinasdude]

A fat bike with a BBSHD and a 36T crank gear is a fun thing, and with a 30T, a single track terror, but I need a throttleless beast. Too much fun, throttle and brake. Repeat. Get very little exercise that way. Never ridden a DH bike. I think torque sensing with 7 inches of travel at both ends will be fun. Thanks for your response.