New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

[eyebyesickle]

A metal gear is a silly over reaction to an imaginary problem. The noise will be a fail. My 48v 500w sample, lands tomorrow.

I disagree and have tried both...

it is louder, but the thing is, people are breaking these blue gears...

I dont see how that is imaginary...

if you think of the type of people that might break it.... A) heavier riders, B) single track riders....

the gear is a great solution for single track riders at least, because I don't see the noise as an issue on the trail, as opposed to in the city....

just different strokes for different folks...

doesn't seem silly or imaginary to me... as someone said, reminds me of the bbs02 history

 

[tinasdude]

I wonder if they are breaking them because they don't keep the motor at high rpm, or they are asking the motor to do more than it is capable? Is it melting due to heat or actually breaking?

 

[RTIII]

I wonder if they are breaking them because they don't keep the motor at high rpm, or they are asking the motor to do more than it is capable? Is it melting due to heat or actually breaking?

My engineering skills tell me your hunch is EXACTLY RIGHT: the nylon gear's survival depends on NOT having to transmit high torque at a low speed. The higher the RPM, the more rotations the energy transfer is spread over - very straight forward engineering issue. For any given load, double the RPM and you halve the tooth loading... No magic here!

This is why I never use power from the takeoff, at most eco mode and go gently, then, once I have the speed up, then add boost. Similarly, always drop the boost level as speed goes down. And, watch the gearing! If I can't pull it by myself at all, don't ask the system to do so! Drop the gearing so YOU can do it, then get your boost - I've gone up VERY steep hills this way at over 10 MPH, but starting out modestly...

 

[Patoruzu]

it is louder, but the thing is, people are breaking these blue gears...

How much louder?
I presume still unhearable by other people in a city environment

 

[tinasdude]

Did any of you weigh your bike before and after installation? I think the TSDZ2 is light for what it can do.

I picked the TSDZ2 because I want a bit of help biking up hills with two kids, but other than that I want a normal bike rather than an electric moped. So I focused a lot on keeping weight down. I'm not aware of any lighter retrofit than the TSDZ2 that can get 150kg up a 10% hill quite comfortably and even 15% with some more sweating. Albeit slow, a bit over 8 km/h.

Other motors that I saw (or looked up in the ebikes.ca simulator) either burn up in minutes when you ask for a lot of torque at low rpm, or if they can do it they are heavy.

I weighed my bike before and after, and believe I ended up with 4.5kg more weight from the motor, XH-18 and including a small 6.4Ah 36V battery. I also added 0.3kg by replacing two derailleurs with an IGH. I'm quite happy! My weighing before and after was not very accurate though, I weighed myself on our personal scale while lifting the bike and without, to calculate the bike weight, and repeated it after installing the TSDZ2.

Did anyone do a more accurate comparison on your builds? Anyone know of anything that is as light as the TSDZ2 and can climb?

Tangent ascent. No quiet, but light and powerful

 

[MPM]

Tangent ascent. No quiet, but light and powerful

O wow! I like the videos. That motor sounds cool like an angry bee and goes like one too.

Looks like they have a torque sensing variant with the same weight as the TSDZ2, Tangent claim 7lb for the motor. But ten times the power! Also about ten times the price.

Thanks for the tip!

 

[christiank]

Hi Christian,

Thank you for sharing about the internals and how they're changing! One of the first units you say? How long ago was it made, any ideas?

I bought one the first units right after PSWPower sold these engines - early 2016.

About the axle: The picture at PSWPower shows the one for the bottom bracket with TWO bearings on the left side.
The one I received is for ONE bearing.

??Maybe?? there are engine versions for 68 and 73mm bottom brackets (there is an option for ordering the engine at PSWPower).
However, there is NO option for 68/73mm for ordering the axle and I really dont think that the factory produces two versions of the motor
IMO its by chance which version of the axle is sent to the customer.

So we only have to guess whats the case with the different versions of the axle as there is no revision history to be seen anywhere.

OK- I mounted the spare engine to my bike and modified all the wires so that an engine change can be done under 1h and ordered a spare engine at PSWPower.
It would be perfect possible to machine an improved axle without grove, however this is heavily expensive - so I take one engine per season into account

 

[tomjasz]

Nicely made units but, no brake link or throttle. I guess you stop pedaling and the motor stops but no throttle kills USA sales.

 

[Patoruzu]

Nicely made units but, no brake link or throttle. I guess you stop pedaling and the motor stops but no throttle kills USA sales.

It comes with optional throttle and break links.
but why would anyone want the bike to keep pulling when the pedaling stops?!?!?

Unless by USA sales you mean many of these users,
in which case they may want a motorbike instead

I ordered a throttle for lab tests only.

About the XH18 glitches, I got supplier feedback:
They are for a specific voltage (in hardware). You need to stay at the voltage it was designed for.
They are replacing mine (description of my glitches a couple of days ago)

 

[Waynemarlow]

OK, now I don't get it! ... WAY back in the day, some decades ago, my bikes had what were called then "master links", but I don't find one on this chain, or on the new one I bought. This "master" is a special link designed to be the point at which you take it apart. It was OBVIOUSLY different. ... On these modern chains, I don't see any obviously different links. So, what am I looking for? A little dot? A red mark? Something?! A clue would be nice!

A hole the same size as the pin, toward the opposite pin. On the inside of the chain, the opposite pin will have that same hole. Use a pair of right angle circlip pliers to push the pins toward the hole and voila, you will be able to pull the link apart.

 

[Patoruzu]

You need only your fingers to open an SRAM Powerlink (Shimano has something analogous called quick link)
Press from the sides and slide the extremes together.
[youtube]1GnlOS5Bgn0[/youtube]

 

[tinasdude]

They lie to you! Those things don't always come apart with just your fingers. I found out the easy way. Working in my garage. What if you are in the woods?. They make a cheap tool to remove the link. Make sure you carry a few of these with you, whenever you ride. http://store.kmcchain.us/c/connecting-link_missinglink. Carry a small piece of chain as well. Several links may be damaged depending on what happens to your chain. if your derailleur is broken, twisting and snapping your chain, you will need this extra chain to rebuild a chain, to get you out of the woods or get you home. No derailleur now. Time for a single speed.Make a chain the size of the gear you want to ride on. If it is a perfect fit it may not get thrown. you may be able to ride with some power. If not perfect. Ride without power, and be prepared for thrown chain. If you have a chain guide, this may not happen. I thought of the single speed as I was doing the walk of shame at Greyton Beach.

 

[tinasdude]

a couple of you mentioned loose crank bolt issues. Try these. Install the sleeve with blue lock tight. You then will have a one tool removal crank arm. https://www.amazon.com/FSA-Self-extracting-crank-bolts-JIS-M8/dp/B00BNZDVTS. M8 will remove it. No crank arm puller.

 

[RTIII]

A hole the same size as the pin, toward the opposite pin. On the inside of the chain, the opposite pin will have that same hole. Use a pair of right angle circlip pliers to push the pins toward the hole and voila, you will be able to pull the link apart.

NOPE, not on my old chain, nor on my new one! They are 100% identical. I marked one link with a dye so I could be sure I didn't miss anything and I went around and around and around looking at every link many times, from at least three of the four sides.

You need only your fingers to open an SRAM Powerlink (Shimano has something analogous called quick link) Press from the sides and slide the extremes together.

Make sure you carry a few of these with you, whenever you ride. http://store.kmcchain.us/c/connecting-link_missinglink.

None of those either! No quick link, no master link, no MissingLink, nada; they're all exactly the same.

Same with the new chain. I KNOW the new chain is Shimano - it came new-in-box - but the old one I really don't know. All the rest of the drive-train is Shimano, and we know the date of the bike and believe the chain to be original: 1982...

My guess stands as it was originally. I'll probably get to this Sunday AM, so any further insights between now and then are appreciated! My plan will be to use the special chain tool to push a pin out... Hope it works!

 

[eyebyesickle]

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B8ZJVw_3ibzkRUVHMy1yaV93TVE

There is a folder with all the TSDZ2 stuff, manuals, catalogs, a little bit of stuff like that, maybe something useful, maybe not...



Man, I was messing with some units today, because I am clearing everything out (I am getting new units in, custom made)... and I opened a 48v18a motor I got from a company... I don't want to say WHO, but I have already slammed them here, on the slick, so anyway.... it was stamped 48v 18a on the outside.... but on the inside:



ARRRR MATEY. If I hadn't been doing this, this long, I would be quite upset. I think it is funny, and took it as a reminder, and motivation.



About the wiring the brake and throttle... I got in and messed with it good.

I think part of the reason these are not offered with the XH-18, is because the signal wire interferes with it... Maybe the signal for the throttle is better regulated through the VLDC-5, where with the XH-18, some are throwing another wire up the loom, from another port... I have seen some variances in the controller wiring, and ports used.... I will post some close-up shots of a couple controllers, and show the ports and wires if you want to mess with it.

Also, I got the metal gears... its not custom from FUTUREBIKE, he just distributes (as someone mentioned) but his 100mm and 120mm fat bike kits are custom! ARRRR matey, I WANT EM.

Anyway, other than that, the headlight wire is simple, but the adaptors are cheap, so... I am losing interest, ahahah.

I went after these guys so hard, making so much noise... I seemed to have raised some eyebrows, and hurt some eardrums... It seems like I might ending up being US support for this stuff =\ (didn't plan that)

but on the bright side, hey, maybe we can get these things made the right way, hahaha.

The new ones we are gonna make soon, will be 52v18a (whaaa whaaaaaat) lights, all that jazz, coming with the metal gear STOCK on these bad boys.... throttle, brakes, all that. even with the XH-18!

If I could get a little noise from the American market, I could speed it up more. Maybe I will make a video and ask for comments! HAHAHAHAH. They know the ebike market here is booming, and they want in... some of these companies are willing to listen

 

[Patoruzu]

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B8ZJVw_3ibzkRUVHMy1yaV93TVE
There is a folder with all the TSDZ2 stuff, manuals, catalogs, a little bit of stuff like that, maybe something useful, maybe not...

Great, thanks!

1) Don't you have also the "PC aided software" ? It seems to be the GUI that will put the right values at the right places
2) What is the ZTS_ZM2015120700236.apk?

Also, I got the metal gears...

Can you estimate how much louder they are.
Does it stop passing unnoticed for the people around (acoustically)?

 

[tinasdude]

Eyebyesickle It would be nice to have a quiet torque sensing motor, but I fully understand the reasoning of a metal gear production unit. Get rid of the weak link. More durable? I would definitely want a temp sensor with an automatic cut off point set in the controller. The nylon or plastic gear is not an expensive part. It fails under stress, which also helps protect the rest of the motor from damage... It is also quiet. One of the great things about the BBSXX is they are quiet. For many, this is a selling point. Obviously most commuters won't care, but for many recreational riders, noise may be a deal breaker. I don't know if a motor with the metal gear and a motor with the nylon gear would be practical, but it would be a nice option.

 

[tinasdude]

A hole the same size as the pin, toward the opposite pin. On the inside of the chain, the opposite pin will have that same hole. Use a pair of right angle circlip pliers to push the pins toward the hole and voila, you will be able to pull the link apart.

NOPE, not on my old chain, nor on my new one! They are 100% identical. I marked one link with a dye so I could be sure I didn't miss anything and I went around and around and around looking at every link many times, from at least three of the four sides.

You need only your fingers to open an SRAM Powerlink (Shimano has something analogous called quick link) Press from the sides and slide the extremes together.

Make sure you carry a few of these with you, whenever you ride. http://store.kmcchain.us/c/connecting-link_missinglink.

None of those either! No quick link, no master link, no MissingLink, nada; they're all exactly the same.

Same with the new chain. I KNOW the new chain is Shimano - it came new-in-box - but the old one I really don't know. All the rest of the drive-train is Shimano, and we know the date of the bike and believe the chain to be original: 1982...
Break the chain and add a missing link, then you have an easy way to take the chain off.
My guess stands as it was originally. I'll probably get to this Sunday AM, so any further insights between now and then are appreciated! My plan will be to use the special chain tool to push a pin out... Hope it works!

i would break the chain and add a missing link. Any future chain removal would be a lot easier

 

[eyebyesickle]

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B8ZJVw_3ibzkRUVHMy1yaV93TVE
There is a folder with all the TSDZ2 stuff, manuals, catalogs, a little bit of stuff like that, maybe something useful, maybe not...

Great, thanks!

1) Don't you have also the "PC aided software" ? It seems to be the GUI that will put the right values at the right places
2) What is the ZTS_ZM2015120700236.apk?

Also, I got the metal gears...

Can you estimate how much louder they are.
Does it stop passing unnoticed for the people around (acoustically)?

Oops, the apk was just my Chinese QQ messenger. I deleted it from the folder.

About the programming... And the noise...

Ill get back to you with video

 

[Triketech]

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B8ZJVw_3ibzkRUVHMy1yaV93TVE

There is a folder with all the TSDZ2 stuff, manuals, catalogs, a little bit of stuff like that, maybe something useful, maybe not...

That's a treasure trove of docs, mind if I add the link to this article?

http://www.triketech.com/Drivetrain/PowerAssist/MidDrive_TSDZ2.html

Scroll down for a video. The lead trike is the TSDZ2 which is whats making the gear noise. I am told this is normal.

The TSDZ2 was installed as a test unit and will soon be coming off to be replaced with a hubmotor. Its a great value unit but a bit crude.

 

[eyebyesickle]

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B8ZJVw_3ibzkRUVHMy1yaV93TVE

There is a folder with all the TSDZ2 stuff, manuals, catalogs, a little bit of stuff like that, maybe something useful, maybe not...

That's a treasure trove of docs, mind if I add the link to this article?

http://www.triketech.com/Drivetrain/PowerAssist/MidDrive_TSDZ2.html

Scroll down for a video. The lead trike is the TSDZ2 which is whats making the gear noise. I am told this is normal.

The TSDZ2 was installed as a test unit and will soon be coming off to be replaced with a hubmotor. Its a great value unit but a bit crude.

Of course I don't mind. Thanks for asking though. I have briefed your website previously. Nice job. I want a trike =)

The noise... doesn't sound normal to me... but I don't watch a lot of videos where people are riding, so it is hard for me to distinguish exactly what is normal riding noise compared to the gear, but it sounds louder than mine ever does...

 

[eyebyesickle]

updated to come

 

[tinasdude]

Has anyone located a Vendor selling the 60v version of the motor besides Biktrix. I already have a 52v battery. Really would like. The 100 rpm, 100N.M torque 60v motor. My search skills must suck. Cannot locate anyone selling this version.

 

[RTIII]

The lead trike is the TSDZ2 which is whats making the gear noise. I am told this is normal.

The TSDZ2 was installed as a test unit and will soon be coming off to be replaced with a hubmotor. Its a great value unit but a bit crude.

I agree with eye; that one isn't representative of what mine sounds like. Mine is absolutely silent. ... This is either due to product evolution (mine's not even a month old) or manufacturing quality control issues - or maybe evolution of their quality control system. Sure hope all the new ones are quiet as mine is! 8)

 

[eyebyesickle]

Has anyone located a Vendor selling the 60v version of the motor besides Biktrix. I already have a 52v battery. Really would like. The 100 rpm, 100N.M torque 60v motor. My search skills must suck. Cannot locate anyone selling this version.

That's the best route to go right now, as long as he ordered the minimum MOQ and had them made like that for sure... Cool.