New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

[Chalo]

Subject change, but still concerning the TSDZ2:

I understand that there are several different versions of this motor system. Can anyone say, based on current information, which one has the narrowest chainline? And if so, where can I get that version?

I would like to get a torque sensing mid motor for myself. I have a BBS02 now, and the ridiculously wide chainline is my only real problem with it.

 

[James Broadhurst]

I understand that there are several different versions of this motor system. Can anyone say, based on current information, which one has the narrowest chainline? And if so, where can I get that version?

The 36 and 48v motors have an identical casing and have the same chain line. I’ve seen a picture of a B version which requires the frame to be fabricated to suit it but what the chainline is or even whether it exists, I don’t know.

 

[RTIII]

I understand that there are several different versions of this motor system. Can anyone say, based on current information, which one has the narrowest chainline? And if so, where can I get that version?

I'm not 100% sure because I haven't owned a "36v" version, but I do own one each of the 500 and 750W (15A and 18A respectively) 48v units and they have the same chainline. ...I plan to buy a 36v motor and try swapping it (running it at nominal 48v) as some have suggested in order to get a higher top-end cadence - since the motors apparently are interchangeable, this suggests the chainlines are the same.

 

[RTIII]

I'm seriously considering the kickstarter purchase of a Pesu complete bike with it's TTium mid drive.

Looks like they've copied the TSDZ2!

 

[jbalat]

Does anyone have any ideas?

Is the clicking etc occurring with every rotation of the pedals? If so, I’d check the fit and tighten the motor attachment bolts, then run it for 50+ miles. That’s what I’ve done with several motors, successfully. Eventually they all became silent.

The motors have several bearings and pinion shafts which are uni-directional and, at a guess, they need bedding in.

It's not all the time, but it starts either at a higher pedalling cadence, or if I am pushing harder against the pedals when going uphill. I have tightened everything up so don't think it's anything thats loose and banging.

I will give it a couple of longer rides and see if it is just the gear bedding in. I was just feeling a bit cautious.

Have you installed a piece of rubber between the motor and frame. I had a camera mounted pointing down and you can actually see the whole thing twisting under load.

 

[Xander02]

I Think it drives very nice! The power from the motor only starts when you push the pedal. But you don't have to push very hard. In turbo mode you can pedal quite leisurely and still have power.
There seem to be a hidden menu in the controller where you can remove the speed limit and also boost amp to 16 A!
So peak power 550 watt?

I have a TSDZ2 motor with 36v 7ah, (20ah continuous discharge). My current settings have the controller set at 16A. If i pushed this to 18A or even 20A would this be possible without damaging battery, controller and motor? what would the positives be if i did so?

Any help greatly appreciated. Thanks

 

[Xander02]

i contacted the vendor today on Ali express directly

they sell chain rings!

34T 36T 38T 44T 48T 52T

i've been quoted $20 for the 52t. i will be ordering a 52 & 48t on friday

my bike is a single speed by the way.. if your looking at having multiple gears up front i don't think its as simple as bolting them on

update: found out that www.future-bike.it[url] also sell c...roller? p.s who did you purchase from on ali?

 

[jbalat]

I Think it drives very nice! The power from the motor only starts when you push the pedal. But you don't have to push very hard. In turbo mode you can pedal quite leisurely and still have power.
There seem to be a hidden menu in the controller where you can remove the speed limit and also boost amp to 16 A!
So peak power 550 watt?

I have a TSDZ2 motor with 36v 7ah, (20ah continuous discharge). My current settings have the controller set at 16A. If i pushed this to 18A or even 20A would this be possible without damaging battery, controller and motor? what would the positives be if i did so?

Any help greatly appreciated. Thanks

The Amps in the hidden menu does nothing, I tried with a watt meter and setting did not matter. I was able to get 580w peak from my 36v by standing on the pedals. While cycling normally it was using roughly 180w. The only way to up the Amps is to do a shunt mod but looking at a picture of the controller I cant see a shunt ? Anyone have any close up pics?

 

[wakyct]

hi, I have just started to put together my kit with the 48V 500W motor, and I was curious if anyone has upgraded the gauge of their power wires.They seem small to me (18 ga. maybe?) but I have little experience with electric motors.

edit: doing some more reading I found this http://www.electricscooterparts.com/wire-gauge-calculator.html which makes me think the wire should be fine.

 

[weetwoodjohn]

With some trepidation I bought a 48v 750w from China with a claimed 48v 17a/h battery. Fitting on an old Claude Butler for testing before changing to a Hasè Pino recumbent front tandem in the spring. As there have been no posts on this thread recently I assume the TSDZ2 must just work. Reassuring.

 

[wakyct]

Has anyone shortened the higo cable from the xh-18? I'm wondering where is the easiest place to rework the cable, at the xh-18, or by redoing a connector end?

 

[itchyfoot42]

Have a 500 watt/48Volt TSDZ2 on a Steintrike Wild One - NuVinci hub on a 26" wheel. My battery is an 11.5 amp-52 Volt Panasonic from Luna which I charge to 80% giving me 55.57 Volts, using their charger. 4 levels of torque assist, which work very well for my riding. With all the "just in case" junk I carry the WO is a heavy (around 85 pounds-trike & rider 250 pounds) but very comfortable beast. Level 1 boost seems to just about compensate for the weight I've added. Level 2 gives an easy 12 mph and 15 with a bit of effort. Only use level 3 for busy intersections. I'm in flat Florida and rarely have any reason to use level 4.

It's probably an "it depends" answer, but I've not been able to find any documentation of what actually happens at each boost level. Seem to recall reading somewhere that someone thought it was 100%, 200%, 300% and 400% added to your input. I have verified that level 4 on a 10% grade will pull 14.5 volts and 760 watts on my power meter (North GA mountains - not FL). Speed about 10 mph. However, I have no idea what my input in watts was - just a max effort of my 82 year old engine.

36 mile flat ride using L1 and occasionally L2 uses 4.4 volts (55.5 down to 51.1 at the end). My power meter shows Watts bouncing from 20-70, mostly on the lower range. I'm guessing range is 60-70 miles but have never tried to ride til battery exhaustion. Recharge time to replace 4-5 volts is about 2 hours. My sample of one provides smooth assist and is virtually silent at about 500 miles use.

My cost was $521 for the battery and charger, $350 for the motor, and $212 for LBS installation. Probably have another $100 in miscellaneous parts, mostly trying to get the right connectors. My judgement is that prices will trend downward and continuous improvements will happen.

Since my goal is to keep pedaling, and ride with folks mostly 10 years younger, to half my age on 25-35 mile rides, the TDSZ2 torque assist has proved near perfect for me. And, I still have reserve capability as my engine inevitably declines. I tell folks that my system cost was about the same as 2 1/2 days in an Intensive Care Ward!

 

[erian]

I have seen that many of you have actual experience with TSDZ2 Tongsheng mid drive. in my adventure to convert my first bike to ebike someone suggested that for my racing bike with dropbars and hydraulic brakes and the 25 miles one way trip i want to do daily this is an ideal motor.

Any thoughts of yours? will it last well? what batteries or what version of the motor, is it worth purchasing the one with the larger screen or the one with the revoshift type of handle? Does it need frequent servicing/greasing?

Any info from your experience would be awesome and will help me with the project.

 

[itchyfoot42]

erian, Why would you put an electric assist on a racing bike? A TDSZ2 system with a large battery could nearly double the weight. The bike would NEVER have racing bike characteristics again. In my view a hybrid type bike, with suspension, would be a better choice. The assist will compensate for the heavier bike weight, plus boost you to your cruising speed. I have the XH-18 small controller. It has a flaw, or design feature, that shuts it off after about 5 minutes of inactivity. Have to have your feet off the pedals to get the torque sensor to initialize properly when you power off/on to reset the controller.

If you are a "spinner" remember that the TDSZ2 boost stops at about 90rpm. You will have to have cluster gearing that will let you reach desired speed at less than 90rpm. May have to change the standard chainring to a 52 tooth, or larger.

I only have about 500 miles on my system - no problems so far.

 

[RTIII]

I have seen that many of you have actual experience with TSDZ2 Tongsheng mid drive. in my adventure to convert my first bike to ebike someone suggested that for my racing bike with dropbars and hydraulic brakes and the 25 miles one way trip i want to do daily this is an ideal motor.

Any thoughts of yours? will it last well? what batteries or what version of the motor, is it worth purchasing the one with the larger screen or the one with the revoshift type of handle? Does it need frequent servicing/greasing?

Any info from your experience would be awesome and will help me with the project.

I converted a bike that's a lot like yours in form, though not actually a racing bike, just a facsimile of one - it's far too heavy. You can find the thread here:

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=88943

It's probably true that your "racing bike" won't be much of a racer when NOT using the electric assistance, but it'll sure fly with it - just get the gearing right!

I got a 12.76 Ah battery for a "48V" system, rated at 15A and 500W, and on my first trip out I did 22 miles of hard riding, up and down STEEP hills - hills I wouldn't want to walk up! And when I got back and charged the battery - I use a Grin brand "Cycle Satiator" battery charger (expensive but fantastic) - I found I'd used only about 1/4 of the battery capacity. I calculated the theoretical range at about 96 miles or thereabouts.

Gearing is crucial. I recommend reading this thread:

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=88711

As was already noted, there's a cadence limit of about 90 pedal RPM - you can pedal beyond that, but you lose all assistance. I found that a dual (or even tripple) front chain ring is not only difficult to do (derailleur distance from bike centerline) but mostly unnecessary if you have the right gearing in back and a reasonable choice in front. I have two of these systems and I'm running dual 42T & 52T chainrings with 7 gear cassettes in the rear, 11T to 28T, on both of them, and find I seldom need as low as 20, nor higher than 15, but SOMETIMES I do need to get to 28 or, more rarely, 11. However, one bike has a 27" wheel and the other has a 700C with 2" diameter tires which make it a 29" (some claim 28" -shrug- ) And since I have both, I can tell you WHEEL DIAMETER MATTERS! The gearing I just gave is just about perfect for the 27" wheel and the bike stands up and cruises! I've had it up over 25 to maybe 27 miles per hour - this with a 48V 500W TSDZ2. The other, with the big tires, has a 48V 750W TSDZ2, but it's hard to get over 22 MPH or so since I have to use lower gearing to get it up to speed and then I run up against the 90 PRMP limit. Use the calculator provided here which has a 90 PRMP-aware feature to help with the calculations:

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=88719

If I recall correctly, the 27"-wheeled bike (with 1.25" tires) gets best speed with the 52T / 11T combo and easily climbs over 20 MPH, and can cruise on level ground at 25, or, if I really push it, I can get up to 27, while the 700C (with 2" tires) gets best speed with the 52T with either the 15T or 13T - don't recall which, and it's obvious there's more power but the gearing just isn't quite right to get it up to 25 mph, though I can cross 20 MPH reasonably easily with the 52T / 15T combo. I've only needed to go to the 42T and 20T or more setup a few times on damned steep hills, but think it's important to be able to take them.

I'm just about to try an experiment others have already tried but for which there are scant rider-reports: I'm going to modify a "48v" unit - either 500W or 750W (I own one of each) - by swapping out the motor for a "36v" motor - and ONLY the motor. By doing this, I intend to "over-volt" the motor in an attempt to increase the cadence. I'll probably do it on a new build using standard 26" wheels, but I MIGHT put it on a bike with 700C wheels - not sure yet. The big issue will be overheating, but then I live in a mild climate - the San Francisco Bay Area. ...I'm hoping this will help the 700C wheel equipped bike to get over 25 MPH more easily.

In my opinion, the "user interface" to get is the VLCD-5. It has more features (usb charge port for a phone / GPS, etc, and ports for e-brakes-cutoff switches and a thumb throttle) and has fewer reported problems. The display is removable from its base so you can easily put it in your pocket when leaving the bike - less eye-candy to attract a thief.

Also note that you cannot add a hand throttle after-the-fact because the wiring from the motor to the display is different! So, if you think you MIGHT want it, order the unit with; it's use is entirely optional.

As for servicing, some units are known to have come with too little grease from new, but note that there's a nylon gear in there and so you MUST use the right type of grease - most greases eat plastics! AND, that reminds me; the only serious DO NOT DO THIS warning that may not be obvious is that you MUST NOT put a heavy load on the system without it ALREADY spinning at a good rate of speed - a motor that's spinning too slow will get very hot and also that nylon gear can strip out - known to happen! I make it a point to only start out at the lowest assist level and only increase it as my speed increases.

 

[RTIII]

It's probably an "it depends" answer, but I've not been able to find any documentation of what actually happens at each boost level. Seem to recall reading somewhere that someone thought it was 100%, 200%, 300% and 400% added to your input.

Itchy, buried in the published materials (which themselves are hard to find, but have been posted here on Endless Sphere), it states that the five modes are:

Off
Eco
Tourist
Fast
Turbo

These each correspond to either a mathematical percentage boost, or a factor. Eco mode (for Economy, I guess) yields a 33% boost, which can be restated as a factor of 1.333. (You, yourself, are putting out the "1" in the 1.333 factor, so your total is 1.333 times whatever you're doing. From there, Tourist is 100%, or a factor of 2, Fast is 200%, or a factor of 3, and then, there's Turbo.. Turbo is given in a bad translation to English which I take as meaning "full power of whatever the motor has to give", though it also does provide a number which is, if I recall correctly, 3.88 - which I take it means that that's the factor; it can't quite get to a factor of 4.

IMPORTANTLY, no indication came with the materials to mention WHICH of the units all of that pertains to! They have three different volt ratings, 24v, 36v and 48v (all in quotes ""!), and several different power ranges, too, expressed in either amps, watts, or both. And, it's worth noting that the published watts and amps simply cannot be true because the math is wrong! Watts are volts times amps, and so you can't have a 48V 15A unit that consumes 500 watts as 15 X 48 = 720 not 500. So, take all that "under advisement." But my point is that each of these various units would give various levels of boost, so the above percentages simply cannot be true for all of them, and they didn't indicate which unit those numbers are valid for. (Someday I hope to map out at least ONE unit, but it's not easily done without knowing the torque that's actually being applied at the pedals. Still, I'm a scientist - I ought to be able to figure it out! It's just a matter of time and energy to get it done and it's not a very high priority - I'm thinking of a solid-state "load cell" attached as a pedal, but they're not very sensitive in the lower ranges...)

However, I have no idea what my input in watts was - just a max effort of my 82 year old engine.

Congratulations on being active at this at 82! Hope I'll be in as good shape when I get there!

My cost was $521 for the battery and charger, $350 for the motor, and $212 for LBS installation.

Um... What does LBS stand for here, please?

I tell folks that my system cost was about the same as 2 1/2 days in an Intensive Care Ward!

DANG! You either have dirt cheap Intensive Care Ward pricing, a SUPER expensive bike, or you love pulling peoples' legs! :lol: That said, to buy a good, high quality e-bike isn't cheap. Generally, the cheapest "commercial off the shelf" e-bike you can find is about $1500, and that's a pretty crappy setup. A good one starts at about $3k, mid-range is around $4k, and top end is $5k+.

 

[tomjasz]

This from " Steven" at TS.

"Larger power developing now;
Throttle function:our engineer advise not use throttle for our central motors, because it may effect the motor perfermance and lifetime. But if you do need this function, we can add this function, and include throttle in the motor kit;"

 

[sendler2112]

If they are still developing the product, tell them we need power support to 120 rpm cadence and 28 mph.

 

[RTIII]

If they are still developing the product, tell them we need power support to 120 rpm cadence and 28 mph.

"I heard that!"

Or, if you prefer,

"AMEN!"

 

[sendler2112]

Looking at ebay I'm seeing several different versions of this kit with various voltage, power ratings, and even different control screens. Which version would be best for a serious trail bike? And the highest ability to overvolt for a higher cadence? And motor support to 28mph?
.
https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=tsdz2%20motor%20kit&ssPageName=GSTL
.

 

[sendler2112]

This ebay seller has a drop down menu with availability of all of the various kits.
.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/eBike-Motor-Kit-Central-Motor-TSDZ2-36-48V-250-350-500W-750W-Torque-Sensor-3-6Kg/152807690112?hash=item23940c4f80:m:m4lM4EZpD4u77K3JDRVN9iQ
.
All same price shipped $549.

 

[Marin]

Looking at ebay I'm seeing several different versions of this kit with various voltage, power ratings, and even different control screens. Which version would be best for a serious trail bike? And the highest ability to overvolt for a higher cadence? And motor support to 28mph?
.
https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=tsdz2%20motor%20kit&ssPageName=GSTL
.

you really don't want this for a serious trail bike unless you like to break things, it has been designed as a pedal only motor that people begged them to include throttle, manufacturer does not recommend it's use.

Maybe you need to define serious trail bike as it sounds like dirt bike so far,

I have a few of these and like them very much as a mid to low powered mid drive that uses bike gears in a hilly area, on my serious trail bikes I have BBSHD's

 

[sendler2112]

Serious trail bike= my Giant Anthem. No throttle.

 

[Waynemarlow]

Neither the BBS02 or the TDSZ2 are suited for a " serious trail bike " where light weight and good handling are essential which effectively means no motors or batteries.

But and its a big but, both add on motors go some ways to make a serious trail bike more often used by the recreational rider where fitness is always the stopper. The motor and battery are the factor where enjoyment of your serious trail bike combines the finess and agility of the non powered version. You're always going to be hampered a little by the weight but the enjoyment factor will be the bonus and as 95% of most riders want enjoyment rather than the ultimate experience, then the Ebikes are going to win. The bike market is already proving this with for example Germany now selling as many mtb ebikes as non.

From the experiance of our group, where we have now 4 Ebikes out of 11 previous conventional bikes, the less fit are now joining in on the long muddy winter and hard work rides, where as before they would have opted out, those days where these guys now turn up are for me, worth the humiliation of them now trouncing me up the hills on my conventional bike.

 

[itchyfoot42]

RTIII, LBS=Local Bike Shop. Thanks for the details on power levels. I was certain there had to be some Chinese "guesstimates" involved in the design of the electronics. I'm also sure there will be motor to motor variations as I would be surprised to find any precision electronic components, and a chain of +/- 20% components can make a wide bell curve.

The Steintrike is a hand-built fully suspended work of welding art. Even with lower cost Serbian labor my custom configuration is north of 5k, but true even a day in some ICU's could exceed the cost of my system.