New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

[mscoot]

I purchased a Bullitt in December (2017) and ordered a TSDZ2 a few days later and after my first installation attempt I don't think it's possible to use these two together anymore. I'm not sure if I'm missing something or if the design of one or both have changed such that, even with significant grinding, they will not be compatible. I may be overly pessimistic.

I'm curious if anybody that's done this recognizes how tight this looks and thinks I'm just not visualizing it properly. To my eyes it doesn't look like I can remove enough material to make it clear. I may make another attempt this weekend. (see attachments)

IMG_6488s.jpg
IMG_6486s.jpg
IMG_6490s.jpg

I see that @Dr.Electric says they had to remove nearly all of the mount, as well as is illustrated by @mscoot.

Wondering if the clearance I'm seeing looks familiar matte2k@? The photo you show seems to have more space than mine.

That looks like a very tight fit! I'm wondering if there are some subtle differences between the frames that lets the tsdz2 only fit som Bullitts? Let's hope not. The welds on your frame look very big. Perhaps you could make it fit by carefully knocking a few dents in your frame? Or maybe not on such a nice new bike.

Anyway, my frame is an older one from around 2010. After completely grinding away the rear mount of the motor and also grinding away the holes for the securing plate on the left side, it will slide right in and I can wiggle the motor back and forth a couple of mm. There's even a bit of room left for a piece of rubber.

Tomorrow I'll be doing a major overhaul of the motor after my torque sensor imploded and caused havoc to the internals of the motor. I'll take some pictures of how the motor sits on frame. If you want me to take some measurements, let me know and I could try to do that as well.

While my older bullitt has been out of order, I've been using a newer eBullitt as my daily ride. It's interesting to compare the two motors actually. For what it is, I think the Tsdz2 does quite well against the shimano steps. Tsdz2 (250w euro version) is a more powerful motor. Initial power from start is higher, but the Steps seems to hang on to that power for longer. There where hills I couldn't climb with the eBullitt that my tsdz2-bullitt would tackle with ease. The torque sensor on the tsdz2 also seems to play a bigger part in how much power the motor puts out while the steps in full power just wants to accelerate. Di2 shifting is nice, though.

 

[Alex07]

How do I replace the torque sensor in this ? any photos of it ?

 

[wakyct]

Can you help me in some gaps in the XH-18 display?

pamlico, maybe this helps, the XH-18 manual https://drive.google.com/file/d/1mriV76bTFwtjx9TqzsXry9XrEvb8In6I/view?usp=sharing

 

[pamlico]

Can you help me in some gaps in the XH-18 display?

pamlico, maybe this helps, the XH-18 manual https://drive.google.com/file/d/1mriV76bTFwtjx9TqzsXry9XrEvb8In6I/view?usp=sharing

thank you wakyct, but using the translator is very imprecise result, but thank you very much for your interest and response

 

[thomfellow]

Anyway, my frame is an older one from around 2010. After completely grinding away the rear mount of the motor and also grinding away the holes for the securing plate on the left side, it will slide right in and I can wiggle the motor back and forth a couple of mm. There's even a bit of room left for a piece of rubber.

Tomorrow I'll be doing a major overhaul of the motor after my torque sensor imploded and caused havoc to the internals of the motor. I'll take some pictures of how the motor sits on frame. If you want me to take some measurements, let me know and I could try to do that as well.

The extra photos and measurements would be amazing, but don't waste too much time for my sake. I think your mention of having to take out some of the holes and area around the securing plate on the left side might make a difference. I'm definitely going to play with it again. I don't think I can stomach bashing up the frame to make it fit :? (if no luck, we'll probably move on to a Pendix system)

I was thinking the same thing about the welds looking at the photos of other Bullitts, especially the bottom plate welded at the front of the BB, not just larger welds, but the position is lower and closer to the rear. It may be a thicker plate, or it's just this batch that's aligned that way, but it's really tight.

 

[mscoot]

The extra photos and measurements would be amazing, but don't waste too much time for my sake. I think your mention of having to take out some of the holes and area around the securing plate on the left side might make a difference. I'm definitely going to play with it again. I don't think I can stomach bashing up the frame to make it fit :? (if no luck, we'll probably move on to a Pendix system)

I was thinking the same thing about the welds looking at the photos of other Bullitts, especially the bottom plate welded at the front of the BB, not just larger welds, but the position is lower and closer to the rear. It may be a thicker plate, or it's just this batch that's aligned that way, but it's really tight.

To me it looks like my bb-tube is slightly lower than yours. Those welds where quite big! Here's what mine looks like. I don't think you can make the Tsdz2 fit, unfortunately.

 

[mscoot]

How do I replace the torque sensor in this ? any photos of it ?

It's a bit tricky. It sits behind the main gear wheel assembly and extends into the bottom bracket tube. There are three tiny springs that will pop out of its seats when you knock out the sensor from the left side. Be sure to grab them before they disappear. Other than that you can follow the procedure in the workshop manual here:

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/download/file.php?id=220890

The photos show what a destroyed torque sensor looks like. Something came loose and got chewed up. I think perhaps it killed my display and controller too.

 

[thomfellow]

To me it looks like my bb-tube is slightly lower than yours. Those welds where quite big! Here's what mine looks like. I don't think you can make the Tsdz2 fit, unfortunately.

Yes, you appear to have a grand canyon by comparison. Time to sell on the TSDZ2 I suspect. :-/

 

[sendler2112]

Too bad it seems like this system is better suited to light commuting in a crowded urban streets than to any serious use by bike enthusiasts. Too many early failures.

 

[Chalo]

I'm especially curious about the CSK one-way clutch failures. My impression is that the CSK clutch only engages to transmit pedal power, and does not have to transmit motor power. Is this correct?

I have been planning to try one of these TSDZ2 units, but I have to be able to pedal strongly without breaking the system.

 

[pamlico]

a question, to start the march, display XH18, the number one equals eco or speed

 

[mscoot]

a question, to start the march, display XH18, the number one equals eco or speed

Eco

 

[mscoot]

Too bad it seems like this system is better suited to light commuting in a crowded urban streets than to any serious use by bike enthusiasts. Too many early failures.

Despite my broken torque sensor, I still think this system can do some serious work. My broken torque sensor was an "early" spare part (faulty from the start) that was replaced under warranty because we thought the original was broken (it turned out to be a bad connection somewhere else).

Anyway, I've done more than 5000 km on this 250w motor the last year. Regularily hauling 200+ kg on my cargo bike in hilly Norway. It has been ridden in -15 degrees and up to +30 degrees. I've seen more "high end" bosch motors fail under less stress than what my tsdz2 has been through.

It never really let me down until that faulty torque sensor imploded. That, in turn, caused all sorts of things. It fried the controller, which in turn fried the display. While troubleshooting, it fried another display. All these things will be replaced under warranty. Worst case, I'll just get a new motor.

Now, what I'd really wish for was that it would be programmed a little differently. Bafang has a setting called "keep current" and beeing able to tweak something similar on the tsdz2 would be nice. The motor backs off on the power a little too early on longer hills imo.

 

[pamlico]

a question, to start the march, display XH18, the number one equals eco or speed

Eco

gracias

 

[AWD]

A bit late to the TS party but i feel I hit the opportune timing as I had just finalized my road bike setup and was thinking of an e mtb one. I got the TS from Portland Electric Bikes and it came with the 52v controller installed which matched with my V2 road bike so all I had to do was get another mounting plate for my battery. $$ saved right off the bat!

After getting it mounted up and operational I took it to the steepest hill climb I could find close by and it went right up it. Unfortunately it was kind of soggy that day and I ended up covered in mud because I didn't have any fenders so that was the first mod I made using a combination of some store bought items and .04 ABS I had in stock.



Next on the list was the horrible chainline caused by the outer gear reduction housing being outboard of the bb shell. I took a Bafang type dished ring (42t, the smallest that will work. Believe me) and modded it to the stock 104 bcd adapter by drilling new holes in the ring through the ones in the adapter. I cut off the old bolt tabs while I was at it. Need to add some spacers and longer bolts but managed to get it as close as possible without rubbing on anything. End result is great chainline and no thrown chains in the 300 miles I have put on since doing the conversion.



At about mile 100 I got a strange noise inside but still had power and propulsion. Cut short my ride and took it back to the shop and we tore it down and couldn't find anything wrong. But the dealer had a brass gear to replace the Delrin one so we did that and the noise went away so it must have been something with the stock gear. Sorry no pix of the gear but it is working great as it is now metal to metal and only marginally louder.

While assembling the kit originally I was really put off by the display mount. It looked fragile and any where it was going to fit looked wrong and fragile. Luckily it broke before I even got to ride the bike so I rubber banded it to the stem until I came up with a mounting system roughly based on the K Edge type ones people use for GPS's etc. on bikes these days. A little UHMW and the right drills, bits and saws topped off with some rattle can black and it now resides in a great place, easy to access and view



The voltage gauge in the display doesn't read right with the 52v controller and goes from full to flat in a hurry but that was after a 4+ hour ride so i was about done anyway myself. I am going to plum in a Turnigy watt meter I have to get a better idea of energy use.

I pretty much just use eco mode and am not afraid to point the bike uphill anywhere no matter how steep. A montage from today's ride



I rode last weekend with a friend that has a Levo and we swapped out for a lot of the ride. Other than the fact that his bike was more current overall technologically and had FS the TS I feel can hold its own against the Brose and for a lot less money!

 

[wgtnpete]

Thanks for all the suggestions. Slight update from my earlier posts: I worked out that the noise was actually coming from the cranks, and one came off during a ride and I couldnt get it to stay on, no matter how i tightened it. I ended up getting some of the Lekkie Buzz Bars, and tightening them up as much as I could with by 10mm allen key. The noise has gone but I now have another issue.

My ride home at the end of the day is up a steep hill. The first time I did it, the power cut out half way up the hill. I walked the bike for a bit then started it again and it got me home before cutting out on my doorstep. It was a hot day and I wasnt in the lowest gear, so nest time I made sure to change down to the lowest gear and use only the second level of assist to be easier on the motor. Had no power issues on the next few rides, but the other day the power cut out while I was on a flat stretcg, before zi got to the hill. It was another hot day (29 deg C) so I figured the motor might be a bit sensitive to heat. It powered on again and I made it all the way up the hill without any cut outs. Today I rode it for the first time since then and the power cut out on the flat after I had been going for 5 minutes. If I kept pedalling with the power off for a while then coasted while powering back on, the display would come up, but once the motor started to pick up, everything powered down again. Even if I turned the display on and turned assist off, the display would cut out after about 30 seconds.

I dont have a watt meter, but there should have been at least a half charge on the battery, so I dont think it was lack of power. Does anyone have any ideas? I dont have a second battery to check if that is the issue, but its charging now in any case.

 

[AWD]

Have you taken apart and inspected all the connectors? There is a chance the first time you got the motor hot it might have melted one of the outside wires as it sounds like what you are dealing with is a bad connection more than anything else to me. Whether is it at the connectors, in the motor or controller it is a cheap place to start. Could be your battery connection also. I highly recommend spraying a product like T9 Boeshield at all the wires and connections you inspect.

 

[Daytriker]

Since you are riding in 29 degree weather with the motor under load is it possible the motor is overheating? I would also check the actual voltage of your battery when it cuts out. If the voltage drops with the motor overheating & then starts up once everything cools down that might be your answer.

 

[wgtnpete]

Have you taken apart and inspected all the connectors? There is a chance the first time you got the motor hot it might have melted one of the outside wires as it sounds like what you are dealing with is a bad connection more than anything else to me. Whether is it at the connectors, in the motor or controller it is a cheap place to start. Could be your battery connection also. I highly recommend spraying a product like T9 Boeshield at all the wires and connections you inspect.

I have done a visual inspection of the connections and the wires and haven't seen anything amiss. I have XT90s on the battery/motor connection. Will see about taking the motor apart to check for obvious issues. I was thinking it could be a battery issue as I had left the bike in the garage for about 2 weeks over Christmas then rode it to work (battery had been left half charged). While the display didnt cut out at all, I got absolutely no assist, no matter what level I selected. When I charged the battery that day it all came alive again, and the ride home was fine, but it did make me concerned.

 

[wgtnpete]

Since you are riding in 29 degree weather with the motor under load is it possible the motor is overheating? I would also check the actual voltage of your battery when it cuts out. If the voltage drops with the motor overheating & then starts up once everything cools down that might be your answer.

That what I thought the issue was the other day, but today it was cool and the motor still cut out, and only after a short period of use. I charged up the battery at work and then rode the bike around the basement carpark and the display cut out after a minute (2 loops of the space).

 

[mrtimo]

Where is the cheapest place to buy the TSDZ2 these days? Is it http://auto-ebike.com/ ?

 

[AWD]

That price isn't bad if you want 48v. I would throw down the extra $39 for the throttle and brake cutout though. Shipping from China will take awhile.

I didn't go for cheap with my TS as I wanted to match to my existing 52v battery so there was an upcharge for the new controller. Also the brass gear to replace the Delrin one was additional and the chain ring upgrade added to the final cost. So I ended up paying about half again as much but still a good deal for how I am using it and was able to source everything locally so no waiting period. The 48v just doesn't have the grunt mine does and the brass gear means never having to worry about the Delrin one eating itself. Which it actually did during the third ride as a small piece chipped off somehow and got caught between the gears and made it run rough.

 

[tomjasz]

I think the build quality of components is better tham BBSxx series, better than BEWO and has promise. But lack of response, no available apparent information linking available controllers to displays and lack of integration of at least a consistent throttle makes it bleeding edge. I really want to like it and have an alternative to Bafang, but there are severe limitations for now. There needs to be an active anD responsive parts access and well written manuals that are easily read and understood. Id be thrilled to sell a BBSxx alternative, but so far it seems to need more support and has several gaps. My sample wa# no cost, and im still frustrated. If I had purchased it I’d be livid.

But i continue to remain 8nterested and hope i can sort it. For now my BBS02 is less troublesome.

 

[jbalat]

So with the 48v it does overheat and slow down from whay my friend told me. I have the 36v and have done many long hills without slow down or overheating.

As for cutting out i would tend to look at the battery. After it cuts out dont charge but tale the battery off and check cell voltages. I added a resistor so you can check each cell under a bit of load. So could be a bad cell or just badly balanced since most bms's are tiny and can't balance for shxt.

Anyway i recently pulled apart my motor for a service and thought i would do a video [youtube]CTbDKN2GzNE[/youtube]

 

[AWD]

"lack of integration of at least a consistent throttle"

The throttle on mine works just fine, very consistent. I only use it for starting off and the odd spot where pedaling is inconvenient however. It does perform differently than the throttle on my hub bikes that are tunable due to the CA3. I realize that they make two different systems, one with and one without, probably to address the EU market. Strange they don't always include the brake cutout. I use the slack in my front brake lever like a clutch when I don't want the motor engaged, especially in a technical section of trail where I want to time/ratchet my cranks where you are apt to get a surge of power when you don't want it.

jbalat, did your tear down eliminate the noise? I had the same type of noise I believe that went away installing the brass gear. Thought it was a chunk of the Delrin gear that was missing when I took it apart that was sitting between the gears. It went away but never was really clear as to what caused it and it hasn't returned. Other than the slight growl of the motor in general it is a pretty quiet unit.