New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

[Garth]

Hi Folks,

just found this interesting posts here while searching for the repair manual of the TSDZ2 / DU250 Motor. There should be one somewhere outside in the internet. If someone got that, could he PN that to me ?

I got the German DU250 fittet to my trecking bike, geared with a 14Gear Rohloff Speedhub. It fits wonderfull to the TSZD2, really.

I did about 2000Km this year, of witch 500 are from one single trip getting me in 3 Days from my Home to Lage Garda in northern Italy.
205Km on the last Day, bringing me and my 1,4KWh 10s14p battery to the limit. The motor was doing his job!
Set to run without speed limit it draws a max of 12A, that seems to be reduced later to a max of 8A, I dont know why, perhaps a temperature limiting function as the motor does get warm while driving at 40Km/h .
Its the second motor already, the 1st one was replaced after about 700Km making a high frequent electronic noise when getting warm.

to make it short : The Motor is great, I can absolutely recommend. The only point on the negative side for me is it does not like high rpm on the Crank, even less when the voltage goes down, then it gets quite lazy. So for long distance now i "pump" from the big main battery to a smaler one via a DC-DC Converter to keep the smaler one always at 41V. That does the job.

I can confirm that "Jap" and 25A instead of 16A setting does not change anything as far as i can tell.

 

[wetdog2]

Thanks for posting your experiences. It's a big help in my purchasing decision-making process.

 

[Speady]

Hi Garth,
did you try higher voltage on your sfm du250 TSDZ2 whatever? With your dc converter it might be possible.
I'd like to know if a 13s battery with 54.6v hot from the charger is OK for that drive.

 

[Garth]

Yes I did try 12s, so about 48V. But that means a 600W input, ( 48*12A) The Datasheet states a max. of 60V ( equal to 60*12=720W input !!!)
Im not sure if its designed for that if you want a long lifetime. See the posts before from others, it seems its possible to hurt the BLDC Motor. And the blue plastic wheel is also NOT designed to last forever. OK, its not too expensivem and easy to change, but still I don't have to kill it too soon.
So I preferred to stay on the safe side. A fully charged 10s is power enough. Keep in mind that the power consumption rises massivly with higher speed. Will make and post pics. tomorrow.

 

[youyoung21147]

Hi Garth !

Were did you find the 60V max specification ? My concern is purely about the electronics voltage rating. Because the motor and transmission will take it happily : motor will just spin faster with the same amps, the same torque and almost the same power dissipation. This indeed means less stress on the components for the same power output.

Have you tried a Li-ion 14S battery ? 14S is the sweet spot for 60V electronics. (57.4V charged at 4.1V)

I've just finised assembling the TSDZ2 on my MTB and so far I really enjoy the Bosch-like torque sensing control. Great unit and cleverly designed. Mine came reasonably greased but some bearings have a little play. I stuffed custom-formulated grease in that for peace of mind.

However as many of you I find that 80RPM at the cranks is far too little for me : 100-120 would be better for my pedaling style and also to reduce motor amps, torque and wear on the transmission.

Thanks in advance,

 

[matt1as]

I'm interested too at connecting bike lights. I read that when the headlamp indicator is on there is a 6V output somewhere, but I don't know where is it...

Did anyone find out where to connect lights, if it indeed has a 6V output. Then I could just move the lights from my commuter bike.

Regards
Mattias

 

[matt1as]

A problem with the smaller display might be that we don't know how to make hidden settings on it, since it doesn't have the same buttons as the bigger one. It looks pretty though.

Also, did anyone find out how to change the settings with this display?

 

[Garth]

Hi Garth !

Were did you find the 60V max specification ? ,

Here : http://www.elektrofahrrad-einfach.de/downloads/datenblaetter/Datenblatt_Mittelmotor_Umbausatz_DU250_ab_2015.pdf

and here, page 11 : http://www.produktinfo.conrad.com/datenblaetter/1300000-1399999/001315013-an-01-de-MITTELMOTOR_UMBAUSATZ_DU_250_U__AKKU___T.pdf

http://www.sfm-bikes.de/?page_id=14440

All German, but just look at the max. Voltage : 60V
I tried to upload pictures, seems to be quite difficult here, First they were to big, only very small size is accepted, now it does not upload them.

 

[thowaa]

Thanks to everybody sharing more info.

Hi Garth !
Were did you find the 60V max specification ? ,

Here : http://www.elektrofahrrad-einfach.de/downloads/datenblaetter/Datenblatt_Mittelmotor_Umbausatz_DU250_ab_2015.pdf

and here, page 11 : http://www.produktinfo.conrad.com/datenblaetter/1300000-1399999/001315013-an-01-de-MITTELMOTOR_UMBAUSATZ_DU_250_U__AKKU___T.pdf

http://www.sfm-bikes.de/?page_id=14440

All German, but just look at the max. Voltage : 60V

As I understand this, it just relates to the LCDdisplay.
There is no guarantee that that the motor and controller will accept 60V.

 

[Garth]

As I understand this, it just relates to the LCDdisplay.
There is no guarantee that that the motor and controller will accept 60V.

[/quote]

Hmm, seems you are right, sorry for the wrong statement. I did see that as a nominal and max voltage. But it seems the Motor is set to nominal 36V (=Max.42V)

Pictures can be seen at :http://www.pedelecforum.de/forum/index.php?threads/rohloff-bike-umbau-mit-dem-sfm-du250-mittelmotor.44215/

I tried with 48V, its fun really, but ....I don't have spare motors in stock for further high voltage experiments...

 

[Speady]

Hi @Garth,
don't be shy.
Set your DC-DC Converter on 54.6V and give it a try.
If this worked out well, try 58.8V.
We all want to know

 

[Racer_X]

I have run all my 36v ebikes with 12s lipo battery which i personally full charge to 49.20v.
I have never had a problem.
I suspect it is possible to run the 36v TSDZ2 Torque motor with 12s Lipo, if you have a top charge of 49.20v or lower.
I have one of these motors at home but have not installed it on a bike yet, will report as soon as i install it.

 

[Erikoz]

Regarding the XH18-LCD:
Some of us are using this display with the TSDZ2.
I recieved no information in the box with the unit from the seller, but I just got hold of a "manual" for it that I would like to share.
View attachment XH18-LCD Display Manual.pdf
The seller won't/can't give me any more information, but maybe you guys can help me find:
-Actual manufacturer
-Electrical diagram
-Pictures of circuit board

As for the TSDZ2 itself, any electrical diagram around?

 

[Alex07]

Whats the max voltage and power anyone has run on this ?

 

[youyoung21147]

OK so I got confirmation from both reverse-engineering the controller and from seller (auto-ebike) : the controller's absolute maximum voltage rating is 50V.

So 12S charged at 4.15V is OK (49.8V), but too sad we can't use our 14S (58.1V) batteries...

3 options to get the higher crank RPM needed for sporty cycling style:
- Use a buck converter and 14S battery
- Use a boost converter and 10S battery
- Build a 12S battery

I chose to buy a boost converter from @li (1500W 30A 10-60V), will post the results in 3 to 5 weeks, time for the beast to arrive !

 

[Racer_X]

Good job and thanks for reporting.

OK so I got confirmation from both reverse-engineering the controller and from seller (auto-ebike) : the controller's absolute maximum voltage rating is 50V.

Keep us posted.

I chose to buy a boost converter from @li (1500W 30A 10-60V), will post the results in 3 to 5 weeks, time for the beast to arrive !

 

[thowaa]

Set to run without speed limit it draws a max of 12A, that seems to be reduced later to a max of 8A, I dont know why, perhaps a temperature limiting function as the motor does get warm while driving at 40Km/h .

Which assist level do you use?
Any others that can confirm the reduction to 8A?

 

[matt1as]

Regarding the XH18-LCD:
Some of us are using this display with the TSDZ2.
I recieved no information in the box with the unit from the seller, but I just got hold of a "manual" for it that I would like to share.

Thanks for this manual. Do you have any idea where to connect the lights?

 

[mscoot]

Whats the max voltage and power anyone has run on this ?

This may be old, ut it seems this user on the german pedelec forum runs the motor at 50V:
http://www.pedelecforum.de/forum/index.php?threads/sfm-mittelmotor-umbausatz-du-250.34285/page-5#post-568806

 

[MPM]

Regarding the XH18-LCD:
I just got hold of a "manual" for it that I would like to share.

Thanks for the manual! Now I know it has the walk assist. Will try it once I get my motor repaired.

Sorry, I can't help with who makes the XH-18 controller.

But one more question related to higher voltage batteries: If you use more than a standard 36V battery I assume that the battery level indicator in the controller will become useless, as I assume it will just always show 'full', is that correct?

 

[thowaa]

But one more question related to higher voltage batteries: If you use more than a standard 36V battery I assume that the battery level indicator in the controller will become useless, as I assume it will just always show 'full', is that correct?

Yes, I guess that is correct. The indicator shows full until I get Vmin below 36V, then it seems to drop one bar per 1V down, but the voltage goes a bit up and down dependent on load. According to the motor data sheet there is a protection shutdown at 29V. I haven't run until that happens, and I haven't seen the waring in the display yet. Might be that the battery BMS start to choke or turn power off first, even with a 36V battery.

 

[thowaa]

Regarding the XH18-LCD:
I just got hold of a "manual" for it that I would like to share.

Sorry, I can't help with who makes the XH-18 controller.

Any reason to believe that the XH18 display is made by anyone else than Tongsheng who makes the TSDZ2 motor?

 

[DrewSki]

Now I can't answer your question on how to remove the blue gear, because I haven't been able to get the little gear off of the motor shaft. So if your motor shaft is not broken, that bearing prevents the blue gear from moving up. As far as I can see this tiny bearing is only held by a tight bearing fit, but it's tight enough that I haven't dared to put enough force on that bearing to take it off.

Also, the bearing on the bottom of the blue gear seem quite a tight fit, I haven't gotten this one off either. I hope someone else can pitch in on how to get those bearings off.
.

Thanks for the write up. I'm still waiting for them to send me a new blue gear.It's been 2 weeks already! Still not sure how I'm gonna replace it though!

 

[Santa'sLittleHelper]

Thanks for all the TSDZ2 detailed information. Great thread! Subscribed...

I have a couple items I need clarified about the TSDZ2 as opposed to the BBS02. First is the “actual” torque sensor operation.

On the torque assist, it was a bit different than what I had expected it to be. I had assumed that if I increased my pedal torque the TSDZ2 would also increase its assist, with the 'multiplication factor' defined by the assist level. But after riding those initial 10 km I feel that as long as I provided some minimal level of torque, the motor would add assist at a constant level, with the level depending on the assist setting. It felt fine with me, just different because I expected 'proportional assist' if that makes sense. How do you all think it works?

The torque sensor doesn't work like a throttle nor just as an on-off switch.
When you accelerate on flat road you will apply a force and get torque and motor assist,
but when just maintaining the speed less force is needed and you get less or no motor assist.
Going uphill you get a more constant torque and motor assist. This make sense.

But, it feels like the torque sensor has a limited working range.
I haven't investigated this much, but it seems like
if I already pedal a bit hard and start to pedal harder nothing happens,
even if the the motor is not working at max current for the chosen assist level.
I find this a bit weird.

For the assist levels on my 250W I have got the following peak (Ap) for
the different modes when pedaling instantly hard:
Eco 6.2 A
Tour 12.5 A
Speed 15.3 A
Turbo 15.3 A

More normal pedaling gives Ap at
Eco 4.9 A
Tour 9.9 A
Speed 15.1 A
Turbo 15.1 A

When turbo mode still feels more powerful it is because the torque sensor is more sensitive.

I think it would have been a nice feature to be able to adjust the sensitivity
according to individual strength and need for assistance.

Considering MPM’s feel comment and throwaa’s Amp readings, it doesn’t appear that there will be much difference in the feel of the assist other than a quicker on/off of the power at the level set.

Second is the hideous noise issue.

So far I'm happy with the assist level, but I'm still sweating uphill. Perhaps that's an old habit from when my bike was non-electric. Maybe I just need to slow down. I really like how the torque sensor works compared the another bike I built with a Bafang BBS02.

Anyway, what I'm wondering about is the same as so many of the others here. How do I get rid of (or get used to) the noise? It sounds like an electric winch, particularily at low speeds and high load with maximum assist.

… But still, it seems to me that this noise must be limiting performance somehow?

Mscoot – How much of a difference is there between your Bafang and your TSDZ2 with regard to applying more power when you pedal harder. It seems others aren’t feeling anything different other than the quicker on/off of the torque sensor other the simple Bafang method. A quick power shutoff when you stop pedaling in and of itself sounds great to me and probably would eliminate brake power cutoff wires for the way I ride.

Also, have you got use to the noise? And/or found a way to get it as quiet as a Bafang?

The last concern is "drag" when pedaling without power. IMHO the Bafang has substantial drag, especially after running it, so maybe heat plays a roll there (?). My Bafang felt like I was dragging massive magnets when I'd run the battery dry and tried to pedal it hot.

One of the posters mentioned the major drag issue for the TSDZ2 has as well. He thought it might be somewhat related to a large O-ring, but I'm guessing it is something else. What is your personal experience with drag when pedaling this mid-drive without power?

 

[docw009]

The last concern is "drag" when pedaling without power. IMHO the Bafang has substantial drag, especially after running it, so maybe heat plays a roll there (?). My Bafang felt like I was dragging massive magnets when I'd run the battery dry and tried to pedal it hot.

Hmm. I've never had that feeling with my BBS02 750W kit. I've taken off the chain and the crank/pedals spin freely with power off, and in PAS 0. I've ridden many miles unpowered too, but never with a hot motor.