New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

[AWD]

Definitely interested here! Thanks for the hard work.

 

[Marin]

Definitely interested here! Thanks for the hard work.

Yes I’d like to know what is involved to set up KT- LCD3

 

[AZUR]

Good work. I'm interested. Thanks

 

[Waynemarlow]

Great, thanks for your time to fully understand the background of this great little motor, yup interested in the LCD3 as some of its potential outputs such as Cadence and Watts input could make a great fun training bike, bit like a normal bike but twice as fast everywhere, opens up all sorts of trails.

 

[alva78]

interested here! Thanks for the work,that mod convinced me to take a tsdz2 instead of bafang!!!

 

[sysrq]

Coaster Brake version, Broken Torque sensor.

I recently received a TSDZ2 motor and a spare torque sensor assembly, for me to strip the motor and replace the sensor. It was assumed rather than known that the sensor was broken, so I fitted the motor to a spare mountain bike and tested it.
The display lit up, everything looked normal but on riding it there was no assistance at all.
On stripping the motor and removing the original torque sensor I found it was cracked in the tube that surrounds the pedal spindle.

Short story: Replacing the torque sensor fixed the problem and it worked well, however:

Long story: When I compared the broken sensor and the one I had been given to fit, they were not identical. The old one was shorter in the pedal spindle and in the tube that surrounds it, and it had two bearings on the left hand end of the pedal spindle. The new one had a longer spindle, longer tube and only room for one bearing.
The length from the mounting for the large gear to the circlip on the pedal spindle that retained the inner race of the lefthand bearing was the same on both.

If I had fitted the new assembly with only one bearing, it would have been able to slide sideways by the width of the bearing (7mm), so I machined up a spacer bush the same OD as the bearing and the same width. I slid this bush in before the bearing and tried to assemble. Weirdly, it seemed the bush was 1mm too wide, so I made another 6mm wide and everything assembled fine with virtually no side play on the spindle.
Looking at the photos of torque sensors for sale from various suppliers, they all looked the same as the newer (single bearing) one, so I assume the motor I had was an early one and the design has changed in later motors.

Another thing I noticed was that the big gear was solid, with no sprag clutch (one-way bearing) in the middle. This meant that the pedal spindle rotated with the chainring at all times, so if the motor was driving the chainring it was also driving the pedals.
I realized that this was almost certainly a "Coaster Brake" version of the motor, as pedalling backwards DID drive the chain backwards and would be able to activate a coaster (back-pedal) brake.
It also means that it would be very unwise to use a throttle with a coaster brake version of this motor!!
Test Riding the bike, I noticed that if I was pedalling hard, then stopped suddenly, I could feel the pedals "kick" forward briefly. Obviously it took a fraction of a second for the torque sensor / controller to sense that the pedal torque had dropped to zero and stop powering the motor. Not a major issue, but enough that I would prefer not to use the coaster brake version unless I actually needed that function.

I have probably received older version from their old stock as it says it's made in 2017/06 and the spindle has some significant radial play, not side play.

 

[John and Cecil]

We will probably upgrade in the future to the lcd3. Does the lcd3 have a port for the throttle, a usb port, and also is there still a way to use the 6v light ports?

This thread is growing in leaps and bounds - it really needs an index. I'm glad it was only 60 pages when we joined, now it takes 90 pages of reading to get caught up for new people!

 

[casainho]

We will probably upgrade in the future to the lcd3. Does the lcd3 have a port for the throttle, a usb port, and also is there still a way to use the 6v light ports?

Yes but you will need to get your hands dirty or pay to some local shop to do it for you.

Let's see:
1. Throttle: the throttle needs to be connected to comming wire from the motor controler and not to LCD3. This is just wire connecting, soldering.

2. USB port: there is a version of LCD3 with USB charging output but I never tested auch version. But should be like on VLCD5, an isolated module board just for that feature, inside the LCD.

3. 6V lights: just like the throttle, it needs to be connected to wires that comes from the controller. And the controler enables/disables that wire power when LCD sends a specific command to the controller - I will implement that, LCD3 has specific symbol for lights state, it is near the brakes symbol state.

As you see, is just wiring connecting, and don't even need to solder them. A multimeter tool is a must to validate the battery voltage wires.

 

[John and Cecil]

Yes but you will need to get your hands dirty or pay to some local shop to do it for you.

Let's see:
1. Throttle: the throttle needs to be connected to comming wire from the motor controler and not to LCD3. This is just wire connecting, soldering.

2. USB port: there is a version of LCD3 with USB charging output but I never tested auch version. But should be like on VLCD5, an isolated module board just for that feature, inside the LCD.

3. 6V lights: just like the throttle, it needs to be connected to wires that comes from the controller. And the controler enables/disables that wire power when LCD sends a specific command to the controller - I will implement that, LCD3 has specific symbol for lights state, it is near the brakes symbol state.

As you see, is just wiring connecting, and don't even need to solder them. A multimeter tool is a must to validate the battery voltage wires.

Thank you Casainho. The lcd and programming is very cool, it is nice that all the things it will show are actually useful - unlike the vcd5 of which basically only the speed and pas level is of use.

 

[jbalat]

I have felt something with the TSDZ2 motor that may be related to the reason why the current intensity is zero for a few moments.

I have a TSDZ2 with 350W 36V.

I felt that when I was pedaling continuously, on a road with a slight slope of 1%, the bicycle was working with sobs. It was as if the TSDZ2 engine briefly stopped assisting the pedal.

...In TSDZ2 it is as if the engine is making, sometimes, a counter force.

I feel this too. The 36v motor does not give a lot of assistance and when the battery is low or you use a lower assistance level then I can also feel that as you peddle the assistance is off or indeed backwards if only for a very short time.

Casaihno this is pretty obvious from the Watt output on the LCD3. Is there anyway we can smooth the torque input and stop it dropping to zero while the pedals are turning ?

 

[casainho]

Casaihno this is pretty obvious from the Watt output on the LCD3. Is there anyway we can smooth the torque input and stop it dropping to zero while the pedals are turning ?

That is possible on the developement of our firmware, which I started already.

I did that smooth already for KT motor controllers firmware, when using a bottom bracket torque sensor - I only use that torque sensor on my family ebikes and no throttle.

How do I smooth? First phase is not smoothing at start when pedal cadence is like less than 20, so we get a fast signal response at startup. After that, I output on the algorithm the max read value over 1 rotation of the pedals and works very well!!

That's why next efforts should be on continuing developing our own firmware and not only on very small improvements of the original firmware.

 

[pawepie]

Go to github for the OpenSource firmware and you have there also for the 48V version.

So, first byte of EEPROM is the lower voltage limit. 2nd byte nominal voltage, all them divord by 2.5.
3rd byte the current in amps.

Did you try to change 3rd byte??

Thank your the tips! Just ordered the speed sensor wire (to make a programming cable) and an LCD3 from PSWpower (excited to test out the display firmware!). Will update with my progress here once everything arrives You're a gem casainho!

 

[casainho]

I want to implement the Wh measurement for the current trip and the idea is that it will help me to understand how much battery energy is left.

My question for you guys: should I implement Wh or Ah??

Maybe Ah because we know how much Ah our batteries have and will be easy to compare than if we use Wh, right?

 

[AZUR]

I want to implement the Wh measurement for the current trip and the idea is that it will help me to understand how much battery energy is left.

My question for you guys: should I implement Wh or Ah??

Maybe Ah because we know how much Ah our batteries have and will be easy to compare than if we use Wh, right?

For me personally I would like to have Wh because I can see Ah in the battery which have bluetooth. Maybe, if you have time you can do both. We can choose in the display before we start riding?
I can get my power in the pedal power meter. I can add both the human power and the motor power to have the total power. I can compare with power I do without motor.

 

[AZUR]

I have felt something with the TSDZ2 motor that may be related to the reason why the current intensity is zero for a few moments.

I have a TSDZ2 with 350W 36V.

I felt that when I was pedaling continuously, on a road with a slight slope of 1%, the bicycle was working with sobs. It was as if the TSDZ2 engine briefly stopped assisting the pedal.

...In TSDZ2 it is as if the engine is making, sometimes, a counter force.

I feel this too. The 36v motor does not give a lot of assistance and when the battery is low or you use a lower assistance level then I can also feel that as you peddle the assistance is off or indeed backwards if only for a very short time.

Casaihno this is pretty obvious from the Watt output on the LCD3. Is there anyway we can smooth the torque input and stop it dropping to zero while the pedals are turning ?

My battery was almost 100% full charged. The strange feeling occurs either in assistant level 2 as in the 4.
Next time I ride I will see more carefully how does it happens.

 

[sysrq]

I got that creaking too a few weeks ago. I think it boils down to sloppy bearings around the bottom bracket. There's probably enough play there to let the plastic cover on that one-way-bearing scratch against something. So by applying grease behind that central rubber cover you're only silencing the symptoms of sloppy bearings.

Here's an italian video describing how to remove that central bit:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hqAP1NZvNPo

I'm not sure what sort of bearing sizes sit there. If they're standard sizes we could probably replace them with some proper, tight, high quality bearings from the local hardware shop.

Regarding the shims, I only used the ones that came with the kit, so I know nothing about the sizing. But I could fit two shims behind that circlip on the right side of the motor when it was brand new.

Seeing as you are in Sweden, you could probably just order them directly from my local (e)bike shop: http://www.strommenelsykkel.no/ . My impression is that he's got plenty of spares for this motor. Give him a call. He's a nice guy: http://www.strommenelsykkel.no/

I have two plastic shims in the same bag with xh18 supplied by the manufacturer, are these supposed to go behind the crank spindle circlips? That seems weird, why haven't they installed everything already at the factory if there is such a significant play.

 

[pawepie]

Does anyone know if there is an easy way to change the light output (6v) to 12v? I've ordered a tiny 2A boost convertor to do the trick (in the mail)...wondering if anyone knew of a more elegant solution.

 

[casainho]

KT LCD3 now shows trip total Watts/hour of TSDZ2 950W mid drive motor. This is a good indicator of a battery state of charge, unlike the value measured by the original firmware that only decreases the battery state near it is full discharged.

Would be great if as an user, I could define on LCD the amount of my battery Watts/hour and considering that I always leave home with the battery fully charged (or maybe the LCD could always reset the Watts/hour value every time it starts up and measure 4.17v of battery each cell -- meaning I just started with a battery fully charged). This information could drive the LCD battery state of charge unlike it is now drive by the original firmware and at least for me, works really bad.

O next weeks I expect to slow down the development but I want to start writing the documentation for installing KT LCD3 on TDZ2. Also I want make a stable version of firmware, even if this is a kind of a raw version. At least user will be able to cycle between each different measurement values and the last configuration will be kept persistent over power on/off.
Configurations like wheel size, etc, can be done for now when compiling the firmware.

KT LCD3 showing the following data from TSDZ2 motor:
- battery voltage
- motor power in watts
- trip total Watts/hour
- bicycle wheel speed
- motor assist level
- brakes state
- battery state of charge

[youtube]trwLx2Vx0s0[/youtube]

 

[jur]

I have two plastic shims in the same bag with xh18 supplied by the manufacturer, are these supposed to go behind the crank spindle circlips? That seems weird, why haven't they installed everything already at the factory if there is such a significant play.

The plastic washers are to go between the XH18 gripshift switch and your handlebar grip, to reduce friction while operating the gripshift switch.

 

[mglarocca]

Been studying up for a while and I'm excited to go for it on the tsdz2 52V 750W on a commuter build. Thanks for all the great info and hard work!
Do you all have a recommended vendor to buy a kit from for USA?

These seem a bit harder to find a decent seller than the bafang motors.

From everything I've heard em3ev has great batteries so I'll probably snag one of their 14s4p batteries: https://em3ev.com/shop/52v-14s4p-shark/

Any recommendations?

 

[emr]

Been studying up for a while and I'm excited to go for it on the tsdz2 52V 750W on a commuter build.
Do you all have a recommended vendor to buy a kit from for USA?

I am in Australia, and I purchased mine (52v 750w) from recycles in the USA - http://recycles-ebike.com

 

[sysrq]

Still haven't tested it on the road, but developed some pulsing/throbbing hum which periodically becomes louder after replacing rubber pads between fixing block and hangplate while on walk assist mode. Seems like there wasn't any hum yesterday. Shame didn't tried it right before replacement. Might be due to misaligned casing or something, or vibration between chain stay and outer edge of the motor casing. Could wrap some rubber strip around the chain stay at the contact point and add some rubber gasket at the right side of bottom bracket as well, but then the chainlaine might get worse.

Actually the gap between chain stay an the outer edge of the motor casing is big enough so it doesn't need any damping. Had an idea of putting some silicone sealant between the outer shell of the bottom bracket and the inner part of the frame, but since the gap is neither wide enough or tight enough then the silicone would get spread around unevenly anyway.

 

[casainho]

Now the we can click on power on/off button to cycle between showing battery voltage, motor current and trip total Watts/hour.

Long click on power on/off (2.5 seconds) will completely turn off the LCD power but will before save the configurations like current assist level, type information on odometer field and Watts/hour.

Watts/hour is reset if when LCD is powered on and battery voltage is almost complete charged (54.4V) other way, user can turn off the LCD that the Watts/hour value will keep counting next time. Basically, the way to reset Watts/hour is by charging the battery at max value.

KT LCD3 showing the following data from TSDZ2 motor:
- battery voltage
- motor power in watts
- motor current
- trip total Watts/hour
- bicycle wheel speed
- motor assist level
- brakes state
- battery state of charge

On the video I recorded driving with an hand only and that is why is shaky. Also had to click on power on/off button with the hand that was recording.
[youtube]leccM70jTMk[/youtube]

 

[AZUR]

Very nice Casainho.

 

[sysrq]

Still haven't tested it on the road, but developed some pulsing/throbbing hum which periodically becomes louder after replacing rubber pads between fixing block and hangplate while on walk assist mode. Seems like there wasn't any hum yesterday. Shame didn't tried it right before replacement. Might be due to misaligned casing or something, or vibration between chain stay and outer edge of the motor casing. Could wrap some rubber strip around the chain stay at the contact point and add some rubber gasket at the right side of bottom bracket as well, but then the chainlaine might get worse.

Actually the gap between chain stay an the outer edge of the motor casing is big enough so it doesn't need any damping. Had an idea of putting some silicone sealant between the outer shell of the bottom bracket and the inner part of the frame, but since the gap is neither wide enough or tight enough then the silicone would get spread around unevenly anyway.

Tried today for the first time. Torque assist could have been a bit smoother and less jerky. Seems like it's almost useless while on eco mode when riding on flats and minimal inclines and seems a bit too sensitive, it would be better if the motor could turn on only when the pedaling gets a lot harder and not assisting all the time with minimal power. The motor turns off when pedaling with little pressure on the pedals so the torque sensor works but then suddenly turns on with constant power when reaching certain sharp threshold and stays that way.
Automatic shut down can get really annoying, always forced to stop and step off the pedals if one wants to turn it on again. The XH18 display is a bit too bright which leads to an eye irritation, brightness doesn't seem to be adjustable.

Can't hear any hum or feel any vibration while outside, only some whistling from the motor. Now after first ride the hum and vibration has become even louder when listening inside the house on walk assist mode.