New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

[daenny]

@hurzhurz:
Thanks for all the work. I would like to use my TSDZ with 12s, and I would guess that this might be possible by reprogramming the controller. Since apparently, it used to work before. But sadly I have no experience whatsoever with the MCU programming/decompiling.

 

[hurzhurz]

so the 6v output is controlled from the display ?

correct, toggled by the power button and indicated by a headlight symbol.
(but i haven't tested what load the 6V output can handle)

Just curious. What are you expecting to improve by reprogramming this motor? Getting more punch out of it?

well, just decompiling to better understand the communication between motor and display and to see if there are other "message types" to adjust parameters for voltage levels or power assist, possibly used by a software shown here:
http://www.tsbicycle.net/imageRepository/be88bcfe-c7ee-40e8-ab1c-97a73f530125.jpg

I would like to use my TSDZ with 12s, and I would guess that this might be possible by reprogramming the controller. Since apparently, it used to work before. But sadly I have no experience whatsoever with the MCU programming/decompiling.

if someone else has a motor with a software where 12s is possible, it might be a solution to read it out and program it in yours.
i haven't checked the upper voltage limit on mine yet... will try to do it this evening. UPDATE: 47.0-47.1 V

 

[Rydon]

Looks like Future-bike in Italy might have a new version of the TSDZ2 with protective plate, new chainring, 48v 500w motor and a new small display sans twist grip.
http://www.future-bike.it/catalogo-ebike/active-torquer/#tab-1

They had a 500w before but it was just a TSDZ2 with new firmware and the same hardware. I think this is an upgraded motor.

Edit: Oops! I talked to TongSheng and this motor being sold by Future-bike is the same TSDZ2 with different firmware that let's it run 48v and 500w. TongSheng does not recommend this although they will provide it if asked but you have to buy 50 units. They are working on a new motor that is designed to be 500w but it is not out yet.

 

[thowaa]

Looks like Future-bike in Italy might have a new version of the TSDZ2 with protective plate, new chainring, 48v 500w motor and a new small display sans twist grip.

Might be the same as the Korean Greenwheel version...
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=84958

 

[ScooterMan101]

How do we find out when the new version is out or will be out ?

Any plans on their part to make a 750 watt version, with 3077 mosfets ?
or does the current TSDZ2 have 3077 mosfets ?

Anyone weigh the TSDZ2 ? with crank arms and BB ?

9 Pages of this thread, so before my eyes glaze over, What is the Price, shipped to the US for this
TSDZ2 motor ?

Looks like Future-bike in Italy might have a new version of the TSDZ2 with protective plate, new chainring, 48v 500w motor and a new small display sans twist grip.
http://www.future-bike.it/catalogo-ebike/active-torquer/#tab-1

They had a 500w before but it was just a TSDZ2 with new firmware and the same hardware. I think this is an upgraded motor.

Edit: Oops! I talked to TongSheng and this motor being sold by Future-bike is the same TSDZ2 with different firmware that let's it run 48v and 500w. TongSheng does not recommend this although they will provide it if asked but you have to buy 50 units. They are working on a new motor that is designed to be 500w but it is not out yet.

 

[modaniel]

Hello,
How do people find the 350W version of this motor on 10% grade hills?
How fast can you reasonably go without peddling like mad?
I live on the side of a hill and travelling home is 4k ride at about 10% grade and the temperature reaches 38 degrees centigrade in the summer!

 

[ScooterMan101]

And what about 12 -14 % grades as well , like around where I live ?

We need some reports from people who ride up the Alp's / Pyrenees / Dolomite's , Long and high Grades in Norway .

Hello,
How do people find the 350W version of this motor on 10% grade hills?
How fast can you reasonably go without peddling like mad?
I live on the side of a hill and travelling home is 4k ride at about 10% grade and the temperature reaches 38 degrees centigrade in the summer!

 

[Rydon]

How do we find out when the new version is out or will be out ?

Any plans on their part to make a 750 watt version, with 3077 mosfets ?
or does the current TSDZ2 have 3077 mosfets ?

Anyone weigh the TSDZ2 ? with crank arms and BB ?

The new 500w version (TSDZ2P?) does not yet have a ship date. It has slipped past the end of the year.

I am not aware of any plans for higher wattage versions.

It weighs just under 8 lbs.

 

[mscoot]

And what about 12 -14 % grades as well , like around where I live ?

We need some reports from people who ride up the Alp's / Pyrenees / Dolomite's , Long and high Grades in Norway .

Hello,
How do people find the 350W version of this motor on 10% grade hills?
How fast can you reasonably go without peddling like mad?
I live on the side of a hill and travelling home is 4k ride at about 10% grade and the temperature reaches 38 degrees centigrade in the summer!

Report from Norway, you say? Here goes: 10% grades I rarely manage to go faster than 10-15 km/h unless I start off at a higher speed. I imagine I could have gone faster, but the optimal rpm from the tsdz2 seems to be lower than my own preferred cadence where I can tackle steep hills like that. I used to ride these same hills at the same speed even before I had the motor. I would be sweating more, off course, but for me the problem is that my own max power is not where the motor's max power is.
On the other hand, the motor really shines when on slightly lower grades. It helps me accelerate and hold my speed, but I'm definately not flying up hills with it.

Mind you, this is on a loaded cargobike, so on a regular bike you'd probably be able to go faster.

Have a look at this strava ride from this weekend. It might give you an idea of how it does up hills. I'm pulling my 30 kg daughter, her 12kg bike and some 15kg of books with my 85kg body on a 35 kg bike: https://www.strava.com/activities/785990342/analysis/857/1436

That's about 10-15 Km/h up 10-15% grade hills. Unloaded there is a little difference, but strangely enough it isn't as big as you'd think.

 

[modaniel]

And what about 12 -14 % grades as well , like around where I live ?

We need some reports from people who ride up the Alp's / Pyrenees / Dolomite's , Long and high Grades in Norway .

Hello,
How do people find the 350W version of this motor on 10% grade hills?
How fast can you reasonably go without peddling like mad?
I live on the side of a hill and travelling home is 4k ride at about 10% grade and the temperature reaches 38 degrees centigrade in the summer!

Report from Norway, you say? Here goes: 10% grades I rarely manage to go faster than 10-15 km/h unless I start off at a higher speed. I imagine I could have gone faster, but the optimal rpm from the tsdz2 seems to be lower than my own preferred cadence where I can tackle steep hills like that. I used to ride these same hills at the same speed even before I had the motor. I would be sweating more, off course, but for me the problem is that my own max power is not where the motor's max power is.
On the other hand, the motor really shines when on slightly lower grades. It helps me accelerate and hold my speed, but I'm definately not flying up hills with it.

Mind you, this is on a loaded cargobike, so on a regular bike you'd probably be able to go faster.

Have a look at this strava ride from this weekend. It might give you an idea of how it does up hills. I'm pulling my 30 kg daughter, her 12kg bike and some 15kg of books with my 85kg body on a 35 kg bike: https://www.strava.com/activities/785990342/analysis/857/1436

That's about 10-15 Km/h up 10-15% grade hills. Unloaded there is a little difference, but strangely enough it isn't as big as you'd think.

Thank you. That is useful to know!

I would be using it on a light weight bike so hopefully I would get a little more speed.

Firstly, please can you confirm if it was the 350W or 250W version?
Secondly, In a previous post you mentioned trying adjusting the wheel size to see if this made any difference to the level of assistance. Did you have any luck with this? What was the maximum current draw that you saw?
Third, what chain ring are you using on the hills? Would switching to a lower gear allow you to pedal at a higher cadence?

 

[mscoot]

Thank you. That is useful to know!

I would be using it on a light weight bike so hopefully I would get a little more speed.

Firstly, please can you confirm if it was the 350W or 250W version?
Secondly, In a previous post you mentioned trying adjusting the wheel size to see if this made any difference to the level of assistance. Did you have any luck with this? What was the maximum current draw that you saw?
Third, what chain ring are you using on the hills? Would switching to a lower gear allow you to pedal at a higher cadence?

1: This is the nominal 250w version. I'm not really sure what the difference is as both versions seem to have the same peak output of somewhere around 600+ watts (correct me if I'm wrong).

2: Yes, I'm still going to do that, but haven't yet. It's cold out, so I haven't been tinkering that much. But I'm wondering if it's programmed in such a way that the torque sensor input is not weighted as much at low speeds. It's just a feeling I have. I have no way of measuring current draw, but others here have reported a max of a little under 16a.

3: I'm running the stock chainring (42?) with a 22t sprocket on an alfine 11 speed igh hub. A lower gear wouldn't really help as the main problem is that the tsdz2 runs out power at a lower cadence than I do. If I went really low on the gearing, perhaps, but then I might overload the hub (there's a sort of torque limit on these hubs). On a long bike hauling a heavy load you need to keep up the momentum or balancing starts getting tricky.. Anyway, I don't know the actual numbers, but if Tsdz2 has max power at, say, 80rpm or so, I can continue to 100rpm. This is annoying, because when shifting gears up hill, pulling a heavy load, my speed drops and the cadence drops resulting in no more acceleration even though it is pretty obvious that the combination of both human and electric power should be able to get me up that hill just fine.

 

[atomohodez]

Good afternoon! And how this motor works in winter to -20 ℃, the lubricant will not freeze if it will stand in the cold for several hours?

 

[karlla]

Good afternoon! And how this motor works in winter to -20 ℃, the lubricant will not freeze if it will stand in the cold for several hours?

It depend on supplier. they use different lub. each other. Operating Temperature Range of white lituim grease commonly used is -18 ℃ over.

 

[youyoung21147]

Just received the 1500W boost converter !

I plugged it today and the bad news is : controller won't start with voltage over 45V. I have VLCD5 display. No error message but no power either. It's a solid 45V limit. Running at 44.8V works fine.

It means 12S battery cannot be used. Only 11S.

Will do a test ride tomorrow and post some pictures. I hope TongSheng will sell the 48V spare controller in the future to retrofit existing kits. I tend to agree with other users : optimum RPM range for this motor is far too low...

 

[modaniel]

Just received the 1500W boost converter !

I plugged it today and the bad news is : controller won't start with voltage over 45V. I have VLCD5 display. No error message but no power either. It's a solid 45V limit. Running at 44.8V works fine.

It means 12S battery cannot be used. Only 11S.

Will do a test ride tomorrow and post some pictures. I hope TongSheng will sell the 48V spare controller in the future to retrofit existing kits. I tend to agree with other users : optimum RPM range for this motor is far too low...

The controller is in the same housing as the motor, I presume?
What is the 1500W boost converter? Edit: Ok, an answer to my own question: a DC-DC converter.

 

[modaniel]

Just received the 1500W boost converter !

I plugged it today and the bad news is : controller won't start with voltage over 45V. I have VLCD5 display. No error message but no power either. It's a solid 45V limit. Running at 44.8V works fine.

It means 12S battery cannot be used. Only 11S.

Will do a test ride tomorrow and post some pictures. I hope TongSheng will sell the 48V spare controller in the future to retrofit existing kits. I tend to agree with other users : optimum RPM range for this motor is far too low...

I was wondering how did the trial go?

 

[youyoung21147]

Riding is now a much better experience, motor spinning 20% faster means more fun, more natural pedaling speed and, off course, it means 20% more power ! It really makes this motor usable for sporty riding. I would say it's now close to my Xofo MMS in terms of output power, with less torque but more speed and more fun thanks to torque sensing.

Big downside is the autonomy : 45km riding like mad at full power totally depleted the 36V 16.5Ah battery ! The boost converter itself is not to blame : it's cold whatever I'm asking the motor. Considering the low voltage difference, I wouldn't be surprised if it reached >95% efficiency (advertised : 96%, but who trusts ads ?).

Also the converter is huge, it barely fits the bottle cage and weight is over 400g with wiring...

The motor case reaches 45°C case temperature (outside : 10°C), which is only slightly more than without boost converter. Copper losses don't change with voltage.

Bottom line : excellent for commuting and short range tours but beware of weight, added complexity and reduced autonomy !

It's a pitty TongSheng implemented this stupid 45V limit. The controller could easily take 50V (no regenerative braking). At the moment, considering there is no possibility to use 12S battery, it's probably better to wait for 48V version, use this cheap converter or use 11S battery (which is not standard and only brings 10% improvement). 10S is just sluggish and deters me from using the bike daily.

 

[Squirrelpie0]

Excuse me if I'm wrong but it looks like the TSDZ3 is the same form factor as the Bafang Ma Comfis/Yamaha/ Bosch with the cruved mount system rather than the 68mm BB. They look rather nice but take some engineering to weld mount into a DF. A TT Rover with its simple 2" square boom looks a simpler mount conversion... just get new 2: tube and weld mount available as am 'Accessory' on it. Wonder if the unit would operate OK mounted upside down? Trouble is there is very little specific info or part diagrams on the guts of any of these units. Anyone have a good link? Only ever been able to find one on Bafang Max Comfis which is animated but not real detailed info

 

[Aurinko80]

Is this motor reliable enough for a road bike? Need assist on 20-25 mph range.

 

[youyoung21147]

Is this motor reliable enough for a road bike? Need assist on 20-25 mph range.

I'd say that a road bike is less stressful (less torque peaks, less water/sand ingress, higher speed = more cooling...) than MTB or cargo bike.

Reliability seems to be Russian roulette : manufacturing tolerances are large and you can end up with a very good unit with almost unlimited life, or a unit with misaligned elements or play in the bearings leading to premature failure of the blue plastic freewheel gear (most fragile part)

Internal wiring and electrical sytem seems very well designed, I'm not expecting failures on this side.

But the biggest question is : does it fit a road bike ? I wanted to install one on my Cervelo R3 : no luck... bottom bracket shell is too fat !

 

[Aurinko80]

Is this motor reliable enough for a road bike? Need assist on 20-25 mph range.

But the biggest question is : does it fit a road bike ? I wanted to install one on my Cervelo R3 : no luck... bottom bracket shell is too fat !

I think I'll give it a shot. Would seem like I have a bit thinner bottom bracket than that Cervelo R3. It's not like a 1k€ Bosch drive anyway so if it doesn't fit the Cannondale Caad8 it's not such a big loss.. and I have a soft spot for "low quality" chinese mid drives. Drove around 10000km this year in my bike with a Bewo engine.

I'll post the results hopefully sometime next year.

 

[modaniel]

Has there been any update on the release of the 500W version of this motor?

I am wondering if it is worth holding on for its release or am I going to be waiting several months.

Has anyone spoken recently to Tongsheng that has any idea?

Btw, on that subject, how do I get hold of them to ask questions. I tried calling their german office but I haven't had any success.

How do we find out when the new version is out or will be out ?

Any plans on their part to make a 750 watt version, with 3077 mosfets ?
or does the current TSDZ2 have 3077 mosfets ?

Anyone weigh the TSDZ2 ? with crank arms and BB ?

The new 500w version (TSDZ2P?) does not yet have a ship date. It has slipped past the end of the year.

I am not aware of any plans for higher wattage versions.

It weighs just under 8 lbs.

 

[MPM]

Argh! Frustrating day.

My motor shaft broke soon after I installed the TSDZ2 months ago, and I received a replacement electric motor after e-mailing to and fro with PSWPower. Today I finally found time to put the motor in the drive and build the drive back in my bike.

And I believe I instantly broke the next thing: Because I had the unit working once (for 10 miles or so) I just plugged the four connectors around the bottom bracket back together without paying much attention. DUMB! As soon as I connected my battery I heard a brief 'poof' coming from the motor. And the display didn't switch on when I pushed the on/off button. So I checked and found out that the connectors are interchangeable and I had connected the display to the speed sensor, and the two connectors coming out of the motor to each other, instead of one to the display and one to the sensor. It fits that way too!

After I found out I corrected it and the display came on. The drive didn't provide any power though. Ugh. I haven't disassembled anything yet to check what broke. Controller most likely? I hope not both the motor and controller. I'll look at it some more after I calm down.

My stupid mistake, but I'm also disappointed that it is so easy to break things.

 

[mscoot]

Argh! Frustrating day.
/.../
My stupid mistake, but I'm also disappointed that it is so easy to break things.

Sorry about that, what a bummer. I doubt the motor is fried. In case it's the controller, the bright side is you now get to buy one of the more powerful controllers that seem to be available. Looks like future-bike.it are selling a 48v version with 500w. I dunno if that's just a different controller, though it wouldn't surprise me.

 

[daenny]

Argh that's indeed a bummer. Looking a bit back at the pinout, by shorting the two plugs, what killed your controller is probably that you connected VCC (battery voltage) to the 6V out for the light (green cable) and the white cable (VCC-0.9V) to sensor input.
So the you got battery voltage on the internal 5V electronics, which probably fried the controller... The motor should be safe, since it can handle these voltages anyway and should be protected since it is on a different circuit via the motor driving FETs (I am a noob in electronics, so correct me if I am wrong).

Taken from a few posts back:

Display connector

black: GND (battery -)
green: VCC (battery +)
white: signal from LCD to motor to enable the controller, (VCC-0.9V, perhaps through an input diode in the LCD)
purple: brake switch / motor cut off when connected to GND
brown: serial data from motor/controller to LCD
orange: serial data from LCD to motor/controller

Sensor cable:

Full pin assignment of the speed sensor plug:
orange: GND
brown: 5V (controller MCU supply voltage)
green: headlight 6V
white: speed sensor input (with pullup resistor to 5V)
black: SWIM
purple: RESET