New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

[eyebyesickle]

so you guys are thinking its bad batch of gears / inconsistent / tolerance +/- issue?

and to be clear, terminology for gears not being my strong suit - I am talking about the blue gear, that is easy access, not the speed reduction gear or the big/main gear etc... same page here?

in which case swapping with another gear would test that theory - assuming the gear is not coming from said batch..

so we can go that route for sure, but brainstorming here - the only problem with that, is that theory does not line up with what we experienced with that specific batch, because it was the new high power version, and I even got some... you would think that if it was a bad batch of gears, it wouldn't be just 1.

I think it will be good to solve this one - I see its came up a few times for people here...

The only time I experienced it was when I was swapping the blue gear for the metal gear, back and forth... when I put the blue gear back in the 2nd time, I guess it wasn't right because it got loud. So, I thought maybe too much grease came off, I put a little more in, it slid in smooth, and then was quiet again...

So that is where I got the wishful thinking from, hah, but lets see if we can listen in on this, compare some gears, do what we gotta do and make sure all of the motors stay quiet!

 

[RTIII]

so you guys are thinking its bad batch of gears / inconsistent / tolerance +/- issue?

Given how some, likely MOST are quiet and one or two are loud so people complain leads to a conclusion that either there's inconsistent production tolerances (usually called "quality control"), or an assembly issue (also a quality control issue). It appears from looking at the whole of this thread and all reports that TS is getting better but it's not a completely solved issue.

and to be clear, terminology for gears not being my strong suit - I am talking about the blue gear, that is easy access, not the speed reduction gear or the big/main gear etc... same page here?

The design has TWO PAIR of reduction gears. The motor spins with a metal gear on its output shaft that spins mated to the infamous blue nylon gear. These gears take the most stress and are helically cut gears. Mounted to the same shaft as the blue nylon gear is the drive gear of a second reduction gear pair and this pair has the greatest amount of reduction. They're both straight-cut, meaning that the teeth are cut parallel to the axis of the gear shaft. Straight-cut gears are notorious for their noise generation relative to other types of gears, but that doesn't mean that they MUST or ALWAYS create noise, just that they're more prone to it.

My WILD ASSED GUESS is that because the blue gear's shaft - along with its small diameter straight-cut-tooth partner - are the least well supported, AND as both are supported by disparate parts of the assembly, that THEY are the big problem with noise. That is, that shaft's alignment and true-running is a likely source of trouble. If it's not aligned straight, not lubricated right, not of close tollerances, it'll make noise. Again, just a guess... That's IN ADDITION to Trike's guess that it's a too deeply cut gear issue from a vendor who's less skilled. Both are possible.

Thanks for your attention to this, Eye.

 

[qwerkus]

Can someone give me a definite answer concerning the weight of the tsdz2 kit vs bbs02 ? I keep reading through this forum thread that the tsdz2 is lightweight in comparison to the bbs02. Yet if one is to trust those posts, the difference is only minimal:
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=79788&start=850#p1310000
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=62939#p942760

Yet I miss details values for the BBS02: in the above mentioned links, the weight of the tstz2 is measured with chainring, while on the bbs02, it's without. The chainring of the bbs is notoriously heavy (over 700g), so it does make a difference to get the exact values.

The ES wiki mentions 3.6kg for the bafang, though it's unclear which version is meant: https://endless-sphere.com/w/index.php/EBike_Motors_Middrive
This website shows 3.85kg for the bbs02, though it does not specify what exactly was measured: https://electricbikereview.com/8fun/bbs02/

EDIT: corrected my statement because of the lack of reliable source.

 

[RTIII]

So the choice between the two models is more about ( more expensive / better reliability / silence / more power and PAS ) vs ( less expensive / lesser reliability / noisier / less power and torque sensor ), which really boils down to PAS vs torque sensor, if one can leave with the randomness of tsdz2 gearing or the $60 premium for the bbs02 (source: auto-ebike.com). I'm suddenly less inclined to buy a tsdz2, but than again, I might be entirely wrong.

In my view, that's not - those aren't - the question(s) to be asking. Rather: Do you want a moped with bike features? Go BBS02. If you want a bike that doesn't need a throttle, that rides like a bicycle should, has natural bike feel but you get some help for hills or to go faster or for longer range, or so you can get your aerobic workout without arriving all sweaty (or all four), go with the TSDZ2. (The TSDZ2 also has very much better battery range because it's so much more efficient.)

For me, the choice was simple: I do not want a moped, I just want a bike I can take these killer hills with that otherwise I'm not able to surmount.

 

[aja]

Can someone give me a definite answer concerning the weight of the tsdz2 kit vs bbs02 ? I keep reading through this forum thread that the tsdz2 is lightweight in comparison to the bbs02. Yet if one is to trust those posts, the difference is only minimal:
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=79788&start=850#p1310000
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=62939#p942760

Yet I miss details values for the BBS02: in the above mentioned links, the weight of the tstz2 is measured with chainring, while on the bbs02, it's without. The chainring of the bbs is notoriously heavy (over 700g), so it does make a difference to get the exact values.

The ES wiki mentions 3.6kg for the bafang, though it's unclear which version is meant: https://endless-sphere.com/w/index.php/EBike_Motors_Middrive
This website shows 3.85kg for the bbs02, though it does not specify what exactly was measured: https://electricbikereview.com/8fun/bbs02/

EDIT: corrected my statement becaue of the lack of reliable source.

My original 36V TSDZ2 was 3.3kg. Can't categorically remember if that was with or without chainring; think it was without.
I haven't seen a BBS02 in the flesh however it looks larger in the videos I have watched than the TSDZ2 and the dimensions prove that; due to the shape of the TSDZ2 housing it can almost disappear with standard chainrings; larger than the 42, and the motor is concealed on one side; that may or may not matter to you.

 

[timmy66]

Would someone using the 500w or 750w or 350w version care to give your "max current" obervations?

Some other motor/controller combinations will say "500w", but for a few seconds will indeed pull almost twice that. A front hub I have easily gets into the 900watts when bogged down on a hill.

Is the same true for the TSDZ2's? I'm getting the impression that they're being very conservative with the ratings, implying that they won't exceed these numbers. That helps to understand just what speeds might not be feasible going uphills, since we kind of have a knowledge for how much power is needed with a certain weight for a certain hill at a certain speed.

edit -- if possible, too, has anyone experimented with the "A" hidden menu? Is this max amps coming into the controller? Or is it 1/10 the total power used? On page 9 (or 11) of the VLCD5 user manual, it says the range is 6-35. Maybe that was assuming this is the 350W controller? (as 35A (if amps) at 42V is quite a bit more than the 350W rating for that one).


Thanks

 

[eyebyesickle]

Well, for any motor, it just comes down to exactly what the controller is programmed to pull, and the mechanism initiating the power transfer. (Throttle making full power easy, and it's called for in a hill.... while torque activated/sensing pedal assist takes a bit more effort to trigger maximum current from the controller)

350w = 11a +/- 1a

500w = 13a +/- 1a

750w = 17a +/- 1a

Even if the controller reads 18a, doesn't mean it's programmed for that. I wouldn't worry about the power setting in the hidden menu, to really adjust it, you need debugging software (loose with terms here, don't kill me electrical engineers)...

So, anyway, say you have a 48v, 750w TSDZ2 unit... These things are rated close to the actual max continuous current they are programmed for, but you can get more out by a little... Without the throttle, it's hard to get full power by pedaling, without a 52t to 11t, and really bearing down - these units were made to 'assist', so you really have to push for that torque sensor to max out... Then, on a fully charged 48v, say around 54.6, so we say 54 for math, we crank out the full 18 amps which is 972 watts...

Soon, I'll do some current tests with the throttle units, I'm curious to see the difference of power consumption with a blue gear compared to a metal, how the noise relates to increased current, and how extra grease affects these two factors as well...

 

[timmy66]

Thanks @eyeBye,

How are you seeing those values? I'm got a watt meter that I use on a bike that shows instantaneous current/power values -- is that how you're seeing those (11 / 13 / 18); or are you estimating what the values should be, based on the motor ratings?

Any comments on what the "A" screen does in the VLCD5 manual? (The page 9 (11) ) reference? What value does it reflect?

 

[eyebyesickle]

Thanks @eyeBye,

How are you seeing those values? I'm got a watt meter that I use on a bike that shows instantaneous current/power values -- is that how you're seeing those (11 / 13 / 18); or are you estimating what the values should be, based on the motor ratings?

Any comments on what the "A" screen does in the VLCD5 manual? (The page 9 (11) ) reference? What value does it reflect?

I know they program at these values, and I've used a current meter to see how much I was getting... I don't ride with a current meter on my bike though, I like it minimal... So I'm going to do another round of testing soon - now that new motors are out etc...

 

[tomjasz]

For me, the choice was simple: I do not want a moped, I just want a bike I can take these killer hills with that otherwise I'm not able to surmount.

Riding a BBS01, BBS01B, BBS02, or BBS02B like a "Moped" is what destroys the plastic gear in it. It needs to be ridden like a bicycle, shifting up and down through the gears as one would with a bicycle. In my mind the advantage, once my TSDZ is running, is. the build simplicity. Much easier to replace the sacrificial gearing and apparently the ability to use a metal gear in it's place. That said all of my BBSxx motors have served me well, I'm looking for simpler, fewer parts, and better support. THAT'S Bafang's failure for me. Poor support and documentation of mechanical changes. The BBSHD is a completely different animal. It CAN function like a moped.

RTIII, USPS arrive?

 

[itchyfoot42]

Timmy66, I have the XH 18 display/controller, 15A 500Watt motor, and a Panasonic 14 cell 52volt battery, which will only work at 55.6volts or below. I have pulled 14+ volts and 725 watts regularly. Don't remember ever seeing 15 amps. Don't know if my old engine was stronger higher watts could be pulled.

 

[bjorsa]

Long time since I posted here. I´ve now wasted half a lifetime reading through the whole thread from back then. Enlightenment never comes cheap, but seriously, this comes down to sheer nerdiness on my part.

Having ridden some 1000 km with my 350W 48V TSDZ2 the torque sensor broke and is to be replaced by Tongsheng. They are slow and unenthusiastic on the mail compared to when I bought the unit, but at least they reply now and then. I´ve been pushing the tempo like I use to and guess the torque sensor couldn´t take the pedal forces over time even though I mostly run the motor on Tour (level 2).

I noticed the double chainring question continues to haunt people here. My solution is ghetto and not exactly weight weenie kosher, but works fine for me:



I added 1.2 mm shims to move the stock 42t chainring inwards, as close to the motor housing as possible. Then I bought a 44t chainring and glued it to the nice 52t chainring I actually use. Used construction glue PL400. To adjust the chainline even better I actually glued the stock chainguard in between them, which you can just about spot in the pic. To finish off I drilled the 5 long (golden in pic) chainring bolts through. As you can see this makes for a tight fit between the 42 stock and the 52 extra; but not too tight because changing gears is fluent. Since I use drop bars and love my STI shifters I´m stuck with road cassettes and derailleurs. I had to slightly bend the cage of my Ultegra triple front derailleur a bit outwards to increase maximum throw ever so slightly.

Chainline? Well, not perfect, but reasonable. The outer chainring works well for the smallest half of the cassette. After all, that´s the important bit. I expected a bit more wear and sure enough the chain has started to drop from the stock 42 chainring when pushed on the two lowest gears. The Tongsheng chainring isn´t a perfect companion to a 10sp chain to begin with.

 

[bjorsa]

On another note, my knees can´t take the forced slow cadence and OCD induced sport jock tempo combination no more. Probably going to transfer the 350 unit to my full suspension winter MTB. The cheap spring dampers goes kangaroo on my ass with a high cadence anyways.

But I like the motor and I need it to pull my kid on our tag-along. So what I need is to up the cadence. With something like 20%. I know you guys says it pulls until 90, but IRL it tapers off a lot above 70 or so. I want to keep at least 90. Now, I´ve seen no attempts to swap the internal gearings, but at least there are higher voltage alternatives showing. Eye´s picture with a sticker reading 4500 rpm looked promising. Well, 12.5% more promising. Anybody tried?

Oh, I also solved the ridiculous q-factor by ordering these (took A LOT of googling, I feel proud to be able to forum elf help at last):
https://www.mirandabikestore.com/cranks/27-delta-0-standard-cranks.html#/11-color-black/32-length-170mm/101-interface-interface_isis/109-q_factor-q_16
Left crank: 55Q:21
Right crank: Q:0
They have the added benefit of, you know, not being made from cream cheese, like the stock cranks possibly are.

Extra rant:
The whole aftermarket motors thing is so much better for the longevity of a bicycle. Even when the motor gives up, goes old, gets outlawed or whatever, you can pop it out and replace it while keeping your nice titanium bling-bling frame and shit. Sustainability-wise, I´ve always wondered what´s going to become of all these integrated mid drives a couple of years from now. Even though the new Brose mid drives are positively drool-worthy, I´m sticking to this concept, keeping my options open. Perhaps I´ll order from eyebycycle (spelling) but checking his site it still says 48V only?


Btw, thanks all you knowledgeable folks for spilling your brains here!

 

[anttipaa]

Just tried to install 120mm conversion kit from future-bike.it to my TSDZ2 kit and failed. You need custom kit with special threads as seen on this video at 00:40 https://youtu.be/hqAP1NZvNPo They should tell that it doesnt work with normal motors. Here is picture from my kit http://i7.aijaa.com/b/00111/14458877.jpg

Does anyone know how to make those threads? Or does Tongsheng sell custom kits with threads?

 

[Tonester]

Perhaps I´ll order from eyebycycle (spelling) but checking his site it still says 48V only?

I see the site updated with the 52V. Pick it from the drop down menus: Motors / 52V TSDZ2:
http://recycles-ebike.com/121-52v-tsdz2

 

[aja]

Perhaps I´ll order from eyebycycle (spelling) but checking his site it still says 48V only?

I see the site updated with the 52V. Pick it from the drop down menus: Motors / 52V TSDZ2:
http://recycles-ebike.com/121-52v-tsdz2

The 52V motor option has been on the website for the past week or so, however some links work and others don't.

 

[eyebyesickle]

yes the website is newly acquired, and a joint effort. within the month, I will have it completely revamped and MUCH MORE USEABLE.

If you have any problems, you can always mail me directly. Sorry for the mess! its pretty bad, hardly anything is even in the right category, etc...

if you notice, the only ones I really put time into the ad for, is the new 48v, and the 52v, which are the motors I worked with them to get released... but now I realize, the whole thing needs to get cleaned up, and I am trying to put it together right, just in the background, behind the scenes, I am getting it ready. Going to switch themes, hah

 

[bjorsa]

I won´t spam the thread with any specifics about my order, but some related things may be of interest to most:

*If 48V equals 4000 rpm then 52 should spin 4333. Good torque tempo would up from about a measly 70 cadence to some 76. However, the engine sticker on the 52V version promises 4500 - good cadence should jump to 79 and top cadence from 90 to 97. Was this measured?
*For all those who feel 500W is more than enough but still would like a higher cadence, can we boost the voltage and then adjust the amps downwards accordingly? Or do the amps somehow help the rpms too? Me, I wouldn´t want to push my luck and would rather prioritize longevity. The thing to avoid seems to be high torque (high amps at slow speeds).
*Eyebyesickle wrote "I wouldn´t worry about the hidden menu". If one adjust the amps by use of the menu on the VLCD5, doesn´t that work as it should?
*Any reason to believe we could get a 60V (@14A or thereabout) version for some real Lance Armstrong cadence? (He rocked 110 cadence btw; insanely high! But a good motor should still give a good push at 100.)

 

[gaber]

eyebyesickle, I stumbled upon the TSDZ2 motor (glad I did!) after it was mentioned in a thread I started looking for advice for a build I'm planning for my wife. After reading a good chunk of this thread (phhhhew), I have a couple of questions.

- Have you gotten any reports back from customers that have experienced noise from pedaling when the motor is off? From this thread, it seems like it was due to some bad QC/tolerances, but I couldn't quite tell if that's been ironed out now. Due to her desire for her bike to be more bike than ebike, I know something that persistently makes noise will be a deal breaker.
- How much additional noise does the metal gear add? And if the delrin gear is silent while pedal only, is the metal gear silent while pedal only too? She would be occasionally hauling our kids around in the burley, and it seems like it might be a good idea.

On a side note, I stumbled upon your profile/thread/site via this motor thread, glad I did! It's exciting to find another great US based source for DIY parts, especially one based out of the midwest. I saw you're moving to Nashville, where were you located in Michigan?

 

[garron]

Similarly to bjorsa, I am also interested in the 52v version primarily for the higher cadence. The main thing holding me back is my own concerns around longevity. I am also curious if the amps could be decreased to get the motor back into a lower total watt output.

 

[bjorsa]

Another high cadence solution would be a 36V motor with a 48V enabled controller. I'm bad with electronics but I assume the 36V version must be wound differently than the 48, and thus should spin really fast if fed 48V while still using the same total wattage? I'd buy one for sure.

 

[eyebyesickle]

I am pretty busy during a move, but let me try to keep it simple, and I will be glad to come back and specifically address individual questions.

48v to 52 volts, and 4000rpm to 4500rpm is a 12.5% or 1/8 of a difference, and YES this proves once geared down to the pedal cadence.

It is much easier to notice the pedal cadence increase in the lower/middle gears, than the higher gears, because although you increase the RPM with the voltage, you still need a certain amount of current/amps to push that. So it is hard to crank those extra RPM on the top end, where the wind resistance is picking up, and you may need more actual current power to push you to that cadence~gearing.

So, the real voltage and current settings are only accessible through hex editing/dealer tech. If you don't want the full current on the 52v model, just use it at lower assist, no reason to program them any lower, IMO.

The voltage isn't making them any less reliable, more current would. I run into the same TOP END resistance with the 48v speed, so I already knew it would be hard to squeeze the extra 12.5% speed increase, given it was hard to get the 48v up to the top end already.

Is that making sense?

Increased pedal cadence assistance for sure, but not much increase on the top end, due to current limitations.



I am going to be doing some comparisons of 36v model, WITH and WITHOUT throttle, and then the 52v model, WITH and WITHOUT throttle - and also WITH and METAL, and PLASTIC gears - so everyone can judge for themselves. One thing to note, is different power levels obviously making different noise, then the application where it is installed, and the rider weight, not to mention gearing and style.... Honestly, after THOROUGH evaluation, I have found this to be the main discrepancy. I actually have not ran into any tolerance/noise issues, other than with poorly installed gears, and people pushing motors too hard in certain situations. Nothing is foolproof. Still however, I am testing more motors, and tearing a couple up to see what's what... has to be done

no way for me to really say how much noise the metal gear adds, honestly, in my situation, with heavy grease, almost no extra noise, but if you push that sucker hard enough, to where you would be needing that gear in the first place, well then, you get a little more noise.

I will make some videos with and without load etc... when I am in Nashville setup, probably done within 10 days to 14... I have another batch coming in

 

[eyebyesickle]

Another high cadence solution would be a 36V motor with a 48V enabled controller. I'm bad with electronics but I assume the 36V version must be wound differently than the 48, and thus should spin really fast if fed 48V while still using the same total wattage? I'd buy one for sure.

I'm interested in this specifically. They told me I can't change the 36v models to 52v, only the 48v models.

but they like to tell you no! =) hahaha

I have some controllers coming in, that I am changing to 52v, and I will try one in the 36v motor for sure

 

[Waynemarlow]

Just giving a bit of feed back, my 500W unit has been used by about 20 different riders now, almost entirely off road and with a real mix of abilities. Most like it and would agree its a simple way into Ebiking using your own bike.

There are two recurring themes though which I think need to be addressed.

The worst problem happens virtually every time its used by a new rider. The unit calibrates the torque sensing every time its switched on, 95% of riders put one foot on a pedal and then turn on the unit, don't ask me why, its just the majority of riders seem to. By consequence the calibration of the torque assist is way out of kilter and you get almost no assist. You can tell em not to, but they do and at some stage during a stop start situation, you just know that you will get the usual, battery must be flat as I'm getting not much assist. This calibration needs to be in the hidden menus and once set probably doesn't need to be recalibrated that often, perhaps a 50 on / off cycle, a screen could come up with a reminder to not put any weight on the pedals whilst its recalibrating itself. Its a pain and in the field it shouldn't happen.

The other is that any fit active rider almost always will pedal faster than the cadence allowed, its takes a conscious effort to slow down the pedaling and use the gears more. Not sure how we can get around this problem but is it that much of a deal when the majority of riders will be not that fit and will not have a high cadence.

Food for thought but the torque sensing calibration in my view is a must to fix as you will get dealers constantly bombarded with calls from customers complaining of mixed assistance, one day it works fine and the next day it will be different.

 

[elem]

Thanck for all contributors, i have 2 TSDZ2, one standard version 36V/350W and a old 36V witch accept 48V and run faster rpm with thsi set up .

max rpm 110, optimal 90/95 .

http://cyclurba.fr/forum/533407/mot...36&messageID=533407&rubriqueID=110&pageprec=#