New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

[MPM]

I would like to know about what speed (if it is even possible) a 750w motor can climb an approximately 8% paved grade (aprox 40' elevation change in approximately 500' distance)with a total load (bike, rider, and gear) of about 250 lbs. Has anyone climbed a hill such as this with their 750w motor on throttle only? I am trying to figure out gearing, my 11-32 rear with 42 front is perfect for cruising speeds but appears to be severely lacking in hill climbing abilities, especially with pudgy little Cecil on the back! Thanks

With your current gears and the right battery I would say you should be able to go 10mi/hr up that hill.

The calculation below is all theory, but I'm quite confident it's close because I regularly have gone 5mi/hr up a 10% hill with 300 lbs total load with my old 250W TSDZ2 plus maybe 150W of my own pedaling (no throttle).

Here goes:

If your bike is in the right gear, the motor works at its optimum working point and provides 750W, the motor and gear train are 100% efficient and if we ignore aerodynamic drag, the bike would go the following speed:
750 W / (250 lbs x .0454 lbs/kg x 9.81m/s2) = 0.67 m/s vertically.

On an 8% slope that would correspond to a speed of around 0.67m / 0.08 = 8.4 m/s. That would be close to 30 km/hr.

With electrical and mechanical losses and aerodynamic drag it might be half of that, so maybe 15 km/hr (almost 10 mi/hr).

If the diameter of your tire is 28", that would be a diameter of 28" x 0.0254 m/inch = 0.71m.
The circumference would be 0.71m x pi = 2.2m.
If your speed is indeed half of 8.4 m/s, that would be 4.2 m/s, so the wheel would go 4.2m/s / 2.2m = 1.9 revolutions per second. In your lowest gear (32) the pedals would go 1.9 revs x 32 / 42 = 1.45 revs/s. That is 87 revs/min, at the top end of what he TSDZ2 will do, and where it is powerful and efficient. So the gearing seems good, as long as your chain-line allows you to use the lowest gear. You might even go to the second gear.

Maybe your battery is too small, as gggplaya suggested. Some of the losses will be electrical, so for the motor to deliver 750W mechanical power you may have to draw 1000W from the battery. At 50V, that means your battery needs to be able to deliver 20A. Preferably continuously, but certainly for the 35 seconds that it would take to go 500' at 4.2 m/s. Maybe something like this:
https://lunacycle.com/52v-mighty-mini-cube-ebike-battery-pack-panasonic-pf-5-8ah-affordable/
FWIW, I've never done business with Lunacycle so I can't vouch for them.

By the way, I don't have the throttle, and I'm not sure if it will give you the full 750W. You may have to put in some work yourself to get the 750W help from the motor!

 

[Marin]

I have a question about hill climbing speeds. I would like to know about what speed (if it is even possible) a 750w motor can climb an approximately 8% paved grade (aprox 40' elevation change in approximately 500' distance)with a total load (bike, rider, and gear) of about 250 lbs. Has anyone climbed a hill such as this with their 750w motor on throttle only? I am trying to figure out gearing, my 11-32 rear with 42 front is perfect for cruising speeds but appears to be severely lacking in hill climbing abilities, especially with pudgy little Cecil on the back! Thanks

The battery is the big issue still, when you address that you will have a lot more power.

Going up that hill the sag on a 2ah battery 80% charged won’t be a real performer.

Enjoy what you have and upgrade soonest.

One thing you notice about battery charge, is the fresh off the charger at 100% is way peppier than when there is 50% or less charge.

I have the same gearing as you and it’s fine if I don’t go below third gear much and it’s hilly here.

 

[John and Cecil]

Thanks guys, I know my battery isn't giving me full power. We did 7+ miles today over a period of 30 mins before the battery got down to 45v. I would say it was probably about 15-20 mins full power on maybe 80wh of battery, so it looks like I am putting out maybe 250-350w max power at the moment. If it was putting out 750w of power the battery should be done in 6-7 minutes. Near the end of our ride we went up an 8-10% grade hill and I really had to pedal to get up that hill at 8mph.

If those calcs are correct I think upgrading to the 11-40 sunrace cassette and a slightly longer chain might be a worthwhile upgrade. I would prefer not to run 2 sprockets in the front if possible.

I need to put more air in my rear tire too (Cecil is weighing down the rear), but the valves are presta I believe and I have no way to fill them at the moment.

 

[hobbyvac]

The manual states 5mm magnet to sensor. I originally had mine at about 7/8" which was the closest that I could get it but it would not work at all at that distance. I then extended my sensor and now there is about 1/2" between them and it works fine now.
[/quote]

I can now confirm that it is possible to have the magnet too close. That close threshold seems to be around 2-3 mm. so consider the acceptable window to be between 4-13mm.

I increased the distance to 5mm and it works perfect. The symptom of being too close is the motor going off and on every couple seconds. you can also see this while in the 6km walk mode. Now my problem is keeping the cheap plastic magnet holder tight enough to stay in place without rotating. I'm looking for an all metal spoke magnet that can be tightened more securely.

 

[John and Cecil]

I increased the distance to 5mm and it works perfect. The symptom of being too close is the motor going off and on every couple seconds. you can also see this while in the 6km walk mode. Now my problem is keeping the cheap plastic magnet holder tight enough to stay in place without rotating. I'm looking for an all metal spoke magnet that can be tightened more securely.

I had the same problem. I put a rubber o-ring between the sensor and the spoke and it seems to help. Perhaps 2 o-rings (one on each side of the spoke, and maybe a little adhesive caulk or something might help too.

 

[casainho]

Hi guys.

I am being using hub motors but recently I got also interest in mid drive motors and I am very happy to found TSDZ2 and all the information you guys shared!!

Firmware/software

I started Flexible OpenSource firmware project, where we developed from scratch the firmware for cheap chinese ebike motor controllers from Kunteng (including torque sensor support!)!! And guess what, seems that TSDZ2 motor controller uses the same microcontroller STM8S105C6 this means we should be able to use the same firmware with minor effort!!

Please follow our project Flexible OpenSource EBike motor controller firmware: https://opensourceebikefirmware.bitbucket.io/

Here a screenshot showing the microcontroller used:


from this video:
[youtube]tj2aYtma64o[/youtube]

 

[John and Cecil]

And guess what, seems that TSDZ2 motor controller uses the same microcontroller STM8S105C6 this means we should be able to use the same firmware with minor effort!!

I checked out your webpage and it is very interesting. Have you been able to increase the cadence on the tsdz2 above 90? Thanks

 

[jbalat]

What sort of settings can you modify ?

I would really love to run 11s on my 36v it goes so much better on a fully charged battery

Also the amount of torque you can apply drops off naturally with your cadence so how about increasing the sensitivity at higher speeds or alternatively applying more boost at higher speed

 

[Rydon]

And guess what, seems that TSDZ2 motor controller uses the same microcontroller STM8S105C6 this means we should be able to use the same firmware with minor effort!!

I have an ST-Link and have played with it a little. Here are a few things I have gleaned from around the web that might be helpful.

Voltage setting documentation: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1OA_oEFecR-PbhkM4jSWLCXOD3-LSBlcP/view?usp=sharing
Only goes to 48v but extrapolating from the chart it looks like 52v should be 82 HEX (130 DEC).

More info here on a German forum: https://www.pedelecforum.de/forum/index.php?threads/software-f%C3%BCr-tsdz2-sfm-du-250-350-mittelmotor-umbausatz.50939/

 

[casainho]

I checked out your webpage and it is very interesting. Have you been able to increase the cadence on the tsdz2 above 90? Thanks

First, I don't own a TSDZ motor, I just started to look at it.

On our OpenSource firmware, we have mainly 2 parts: 1. motor control; 2. ebike application.
1. motor control: on Kunteng motor controllers, the hardware has a motor phase current sensor and with that we are able to implement what I call "low resolution FOC", meaning motor runs silent and very efficent!! I wounder if TSDZ motor controller hardware includes also that phase current sensor or if it only drives the motor with block commutation/6 steps...

2. ebike application: this part implement the ebike application logic, having as inputs the signals from various sensors like brakes, throttle, PAS, torque sensor, battery voltage, etc. Implements a wheel speed controller as also a current controller. Also controls the external LCD. Also stores the user changes on the LCD, on internal microcontroller EEPROM memory (no volatile memory).
Let's say, from the input of torque sensor, the current controller defines the needed PWM input value for the motor controller, in a way the current keeps controlled for a linear ramp based on torque sensor signal.

About PAS max cadence, we also has this options:

// PAS configurations
//
#define PAS_NUMBER_MAGNETS	8
#define PAS_MAX_CADENCE_RPM 110

// if your motor accelerates while rotating backwards the pedals instead of rotating forward, select the other option
#define PAS_DIRECTION PAS_DIRECTION_LEFT
//#define PAS_DIRECTION PAS_DIRECTION_RIGHT

What sort of settings can you modify ?

I would really love to run 11s on my 36v it goes so much better on a fully charged battery

Also the amount of torque you can apply drops off naturally with your cadence so how about increasing the sensitivity at higher speeds or alternatively applying more boost at higher speed

All the settings are defined and explained on config-example.h file, please look at it here: https://github.com/OpenSource-EBike-firmware/BMSBattery_S_controllers_firmware/blob/master/firmware/config-example.h

Our definitions for battery, where user can decide for a value:

// *************************************************************************** //
// BATTERY
// Choose your battery pack voltage

// can be a custom value like 11 for a 11S battery
#define BATTERY_LI_ION_CELLS_NUMBER	 7 // 7S = 24V battery pack
//#define BATTERY_LI_ION_CELLS_NUMBER	10 // 10S = 36V battery pack
//#define BATTERY_LI_ION_CELLS_NUMBER	13 // 13S = 48V battery pack

#define ADC_BATTERY_CURRENT_MAX		30 // each unit = 0.35A
#define ADC_BATTERY_REGEN_CURRENT_MAX	65 // CAN'T be more than 66 units!! each unit = 0.35A
// *************************************************************************** //

You can even change voltage considered for each cell, etc, on main.h: https://github.com/OpenSource-EBike-firmware/BMSBattery_S_controllers_firmware/blob/master/firmware/main.h

The firmware cuts the motor power in real time/fast when battery voltage hits the min value, so user will fell less assist when that happens but will always have some power to return home.

About torque * cadence, we implemented "human power" algorithm (is an optional feature):

  // calc humam power on the crank using as input the pedal torque sensor value and pedal cadence
  ui16_temp = (uint16_t) (f_pedal_torque * ((float) ((float) ui8_pas1_cadence_rpm / ((float) PAS_MAX_CADENCE_RPM))));

I have an ST-Link and have played with it a little. Here are a few things I have gleaned from around the web that might be helpful.

Voltage setting documentation: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1OA_oEFecR-PbhkM4jSWLCXOD3-LSBlcP/view?usp=sharing
Only goes to 48v but extrapolating from the chart it looks like 52v should be 82 HEX (130 DEC).

Thanks but the idea is to make our own firmware from scratch. Other option is to use the external Kunteng controller running our OpenSource firmware, but that torque sensor of TSDZ is really different.

Note that hochsitzcola from german forum did and still helps a LOT on our OpenSource firmware, and also did analysis of TSDZ torque sensor: https://www.pedelecforum.de/forum/index.php?threads/funktionsprinzip-drehmomentsensor-im-mittelmotor-sfm-du-250-p-tsdz2.45029/

 

[mattjm]

Adding to the knowledge base here since I had a problem I couldn't find a solution to anywhere.

I've got one of the 52V units from recycles-ebike.com and the VLCD-5 display. All the instructions say to hold down power and info for four seconds to get to advanced mode, but I couldn't get it to go.

The trick is to start with the display off. Then turn on the display with a single short power button press, then immediately press and hold power and info for four seconds (while the screen is still in test mode with everything shown), then you can use the info button to scroll through the odometers and into the advanced settings. There's no indication you got it right until the settings show up after you scroll past the trip meters--if they don't then try again. I can get it right about 90% of the time now.

Quick review: Just did a quick test ride with this installed on a Salsa Vaya frame. TS seems to work well--much easier on my knees up the hills.

 

[John and Cecil]

So far we are happy with the motor and I am looking into headlights and tail lights now. Has anyone found any good 6v led headlights (very bright) and tailights and turn signals? I don't want rechargeable usb, I would prefer to wire them directly to the 6v power leads and be able to use the headlight switch on the display. A flashing tailight function would be nice too. I tested the light power leads with a 3x aaa led flashlight I had lying around and it worked ok. If I cannot find a 6v high lumen led light I am considering using a 1000 lumen tactical flashlight for a headlight. There is not much out there for a 6v system.

 

[fixvid]

Hi,
Does anybody know if TSDZ2 fits BB30 bottom bracket? I mean will it have enough space between shaft and motor to clear the thicker bottom bracket ?
Bike is a Cannondale Scalpel 29er.

 

[tomjasz]

So far we are happy with the motor and I am looking into headlights and tail lights now. Has anyone found any good 6v led headlights (very bright) and tailights and turn signals? I don't want rechargeable usb, I would prefer to wire them directly to the 6v power leads and be able to use the headlight switch on the display. A flashing tailight function would be nice too. I tested the light power leads with a 3x aaa led flashlight I had lying around and it worked ok. If I cannot find a 6v high lumen led light I am considering using a 1000 lumen tactical flashlight for a headlight. There is not much out there for a 6v system.

There are lots a lights on Aliexpress and some good sellers too. You can also find 6V lights there.
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/2016-NEW-T6-USB-Smart-Bicycle-Light-Bike-1200Lm-Lumens-3-Modes-T6-LED-Bicycle-Light/32614273012.html?

 

[John and Cecil]

Hi,
Does anybody know if TSDZ2 fits BB30 bottom bracket? I mean will it have enough space between shaft and motor to clear the thicker bottom bracket ?
Bike is a Cannondale Scalpel 29er.

Idk what bb30 size is or anything about the Canondale and I am a bicycle noob. On my Raleigh Kodiak the motor fit perfectly. The outside dimensions of myy bb are 73mm wide with an outer diameter of about 45mm. I made sure to order the 73mm kit, I believe it comes with an extra set of spacers and 2 longer bolts.

 

[Rydon]

Hi,
Does anybody know if TSDZ2 fits BB30 bottom bracket? I mean will it have enough space between shaft and motor to clear the thicker bottom bracket ?
Bike is a Cannondale Scalpel 29er.

That is a really good question. I assumed it would. I have done quite a few BB30, PF30 and PF41 conversions using adapters with Bafang BBSxx motors and they all fit great on aluminum frames. On carbon frames, the BB shell is too thick when combined with the adapter thickness. BBSxx motors have a 12mm gap between the spindle and the motor housing. Does anyone know what the gap is on the TSDZ2? If it is 12mm or more I can guarantee it will work.

 

[Rydon]

So far we are happy with the motor and I am looking into headlights and tail lights now. Has anyone found any good 6v led headlights (very bright) and tailights and turn signals? I don't want rechargeable usb, I would prefer to wire them directly to the 6v power leads and be able to use the headlight switch on the display. A flashing tailight function would be nice too. I tested the light power leads with a 3x aaa led flashlight I had lying around and it worked ok. If I cannot find a 6v high lumen led light I am considering using a 1000 lumen tactical flashlight for a headlight. There is not much out there for a 6v system.

Light specs are sometimes very inflated. Be careful unless you know the company. Bafang motors and I believe the TSDZ2 6v light output is only .5 amps so you are very limited in the lights you can drive with that. I have seen 400-lumen lights unable to output the full 400 lumens at .5 amps. The current requirement of bike lights is often not given. Caveat emptor.

To run more powerful lights turned on and off from the display, I use a 6v relay on the motor controller 6v light output with a dc to dc converter straight off the main battery. The DC to DC converter is sometimes built into the lights but those lights tend to be expensive.

 

[John and Cecil]

Thanks. If it is indeed .5a at 6v then it can only put out 3w. That would limit light output to under 600 lumens, I think 200 lumens per watt is about the max right now. If that is the case it might me better to run the taillight and running lights off the 6v lead and then use a rechargeable headlight running off the usb port.

 

[hobbyvac]

I have the VLCD5 display and would rather have the XH18,... anyone want to trade?

 

[Creep]

So, if I wanted to remove the speed limiter on my TSDZ2b, is there an easy way to do it? We do not have any ebike-specific speed laws here, and while I get to work just fine at ~20mph, I'd be just as happy doing it at 25+.

 

[aja]

So, if I wanted to remove the speed limiter on my TSDZ2b, is there an easy way to do it? We do not have any ebike-specific speed laws here, and while I get to work just fine at ~20mph, I'd be just as happy doing it at 25+.

Just don't add the spoke magnet and it will be de-restricted.

 

[jbalat]

So, if I wanted to remove the speed limiter on my TSDZ2b, is there an easy way to do it? We do not have any ebike-specific speed laws here, and while I get to work just fine at ~20mph, I'd be just as happy doing it at 25+.

Turn off the controller now hold power and I button for 4 seconds. Now quickly cycle to the 25 limit and turn it up to 45. I wish all ebikes were this easy, but all the big brands like Bosch make you spend another $250 on a tuning chip. I suppose everybody’s gotta eat

 

[casainho]

Turn off the controller now hold power and I button for 4 seconds. Now quickly cycle to the 25 limit and turn it up to 45. I wish all ebikes were this easy, but all the big brands like Bosch make you spend another $250 on a tuning chip. I suppose everybody’s gotta eat

Chinese Kunteng motor controllers works the same!! Max wheel speed is setup on LCD up to max of 72km/h. But with our OpenSource firmware for that controllers, max wheel speed can go up to max motor electric speed of 520 ERPMs (electric rotations per minute) - can be something like 150km/h depending on wheel size, motor number of poles e motor internal gear ratio.

 

[aja]

Thanks but the idea is to make our own firmware from scratch. Other option is to use the external Kunteng controller running our OpenSource firmware, but that torque sensor of TSDZ is really different.

Hi, thank you for your contribution. So what exactly do I need to adjust the settings in the TSDZ2? I saw a cable in the video - does that come with the ST Link? And do I download your software? My supplier for the TSDZ2 mentioned the ST link to hex edit the code? Do I order the one you mentioned, this one, STM8S105C6? And where would I buy it from? Is this the right microcontroller to get? http://uk.farnell.com/stmicroelectronics/stm8s-discovery/kit-development-stm8s-w-debugger/dp/1775251

 

[casainho]

Thanks but the idea is to make our own firmware from scratch. Other option is to use the external Kunteng controller running our OpenSource firmware, but that torque sensor of TSDZ is really different.

Hi, thank you for your contribution. So what exactly do I need to adjust the settings in the TSDZ2? I saw a cable in the video - does that come with the ST Link? And do I download your software? My supplier for the TSDZ2 mentioned the ST link to hex edit the code? Do I order the one you mentioned, this one, STM8S105C6? And where would I buy it from? Is this the right microcontroller to get? http://uk.farnell.com/stmicroelectronics/stm8s-discovery/kit-development-stm8s-w-debugger/dp/1775251

Sorry but we don't have any OpenSource firmware for TSDZx motors. The only OpenSource firmware we did was for this motor controllers-- see "Choose motor controller": https://opensourceebikefirmware.bitbucket.io/CHOOSE_MOTOR_CONTROLLER.html

And maybe you would like to have this instructions "Install firmware", but for TSDZx motor: https://opensourceebikefirmware.bitbucket.io/INSTALL_FIRMWARE.html

Would be great to have developers joining forces to also make OpenSource firmware for TSDZx motor and share detailed technical notes about the motor and controller.
A user from this thread already sent me a private message and will offer me a TSDZ2 motor so I can analyze, learn and share detailed technical notes. Let's see If I can see a possibility to port our Flexible OpenSource firmware from Kunteng motor controllers to TSDZ2 motor controller.