New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

[sysrq]

This is a step in the Right Direction, at least 750 watts, throttle option, and double chainring option,

Watts is volts times amps, so the "15A 48v" system is already 720, and the 18A version crosses the line with 864. Given that a "48v" battery is typically charged to 54.5v or thereabouts, and, at least on my own 13s4p pack, is still typically above 52v (at rest) when 25% to 1/3 depleted, it means you're getting around 795W when pulling peak power out during that first 1/3 of the battery - with the 15A system. ... The only real question is; has anyone the on-board instrumentation to tell us if they ever really get all their rated amps out of their TSDZ2? I suspect not and I suspect this is why we see the 48v 15a version rated at only 500w. I'm sure this is the kind of question that's being addressed with eye's "750W" concept.

Agreed; double chainring is an absolute must! ... Although maybe not for the reasons I first thought. Even though I made a dual chainring adapter and now run the 42T that came with the TSDZ2 along side a (steel) 52T sourced, I haven't had a front derailleur that works because the chainline is pushed out just a few mm too far outboard. So, I can't change front chainrings while riding and left it on the 52T for getting around and so now I have some really good experience under my belt with the TSDZ2 going up serious hills with that 52T. My lowest gear is a 28 and I don't think I've ever needed it, even on the 52T. For most hills I only need the 21T or, very rarely, the 24T - and this because the TSDZ2 really does kick out some power to help on those darned hills! ... Never had to drop to the 42T, not once! ...BUT, the reason I say it's a must is because if the battery goes flat on me, or there's some technical glitch, I'll have to complete my ride with muscle power and for that I'll need that lower front chainring! (I should add, I haven't carried a lot of extra cargo with me on those hills yet. I'm sure I'll need lower gearing at some point. I'm only trying to point out that the need maybe isn't so urgent as at least I - and likely others - had first thought.)

I was going to attempt mounting a new front derailleur today but those plans are sidelined. I have to help a friend get a car running instead.

Add to that the fact that most good bikes being sold in the stores these days are 10 and 11 speed bikes. there are some 9 speed ones still available, but 8 speed is being phased out , and soon there will be 12 speed cassettes with very wide gear ratio's .

I presume this is referring to only how many rear gears there are.

It is very important that they make several ( Optional ) chainrings in 10 speed spacing ( Note with a 10 speed front chainring you can use a 9 speed chain and 9 speed rear cassette, or 10 speed )

In my view the issue is that they pushed the stock 42T so far inboard you can't mount a second chainring to the outside of it or else it will push the inner chainring into the motor assembly. (I think you've seen my ES thread on the subject.) So long as that issue is addressed, and so long as you can mount your own chainrings of whatever you want, I'm not sure why you think this is an issue for Tongsheng?

Many of us are considering a Mid-Drive because we want to climb up hills/mountains

That's perhaps THE KEY reason I got one!

With a 10 or 11 speed front chainring I could get a cassette with 36-40 tooth at the rear for climbing. and there is even a 50 tooth available for 11 speed systems. Just think of the Mountains you can go up once you can get this little Mid-Drive with that tooth count in the rear.

Mountain goat! You could go straight up!

Climbing hills on 52t and 28t seems impossible. Some people in this thread report motor being too weak for moderate hills (4-8%) in general.

 

[sysrq]

I finally got my dual chainring configured. The chain alignment is not as good as I would like, but I think it will work.

I trimmed (thinned) both the inside of the spider and the outside of large ring to reduce the amount of offset. Then I added 3 thin SS washers to offset the spider. I then put silicone to fill the gap between the spider (where the o-ring is. I then made a spacer to move the front derailleur outboard. I may order a set of 52/42 steel rings if the offset seems to wear the chain to much

19-07-06_6.40.19PM-747x1328.jpg

19-07-06_6.38.50PM-747x1328.jpg

19-07-05_4.05.09PM-1328x747.jpg

19-07-06_6.40.38PM-747x1328.jpg

Adding another chainring reduces square tapper axle length which can cause friction between the spider and the crank when thightened around 18Nm . Underthightening is not an option.

 

[sysrq]

Hi,

I replaced the sprag cluch on my engine but it turns out the play is between the inner race of the sprag and the axle. The problem is that the fit of the sprag on axle is loose and the presence of the key makes it even looser. I'm working on a key that can be expanded to fix the sprag better to the axle. I tried shimming between sprag and axle, but was not successful with the materials available.

Regards,
Rba

Almost seems like the play is intentional for ease of installation. Quite weird when knowing that helical gears normally work with conical roller bearings to take the side loads. Mine suddenly started to make perriodic rough grinding noise when completely unloaded on to of the usual gear mesh sound.

 

[GastonBlunder]

Hi there,

I am quite interested in this TSDZ2 and I have a few questions.

I have a Giant electric bike (Explore E+), 36V/250W, max 25kmph
It's powerful and great to go uphill but once on the flat or downhill it's heavy like a tank and I don't have much fun riding it.

I am planing to install an electric motor on a normal bike, hopefully it will make me happier.
I like the pedal assist, so the TSDZ2 is the better choice for me rather than a Bafang.

I am lightweight, 60kgs
I will install the kit on a flat bar road bike without hydraulic fork, weight about 12kgs.
Motor + Battery about 8kgs
A bit of cargo and equipement, +5kgs
Total about 85kgs

My Giant has 5 levels of assists:
ECO 50%
ECO+ 100%
NORMAL 175%
SPORT 250%
SPORT+ 350%
I rarely go up to the Sport mode. Sport+ is overkill for the routes I use.
I don't mind using my legs a bit.

1. Given these inputs, with the TSDZ2 how fast can I go uphill, at a 5% gradient? Will the motor be able to sustain 25kmph with a bit of help from myself?
I am a bit worried by this:

Climbing hills on 52t and 28t seems impossible. Some people in this thread report motor being too weak for moderate hills (4-8%) in general.

2. What are the differences between the 36V/250W or the 48V/250W? Will using the Open Source Firmware make these differences almost irrelevant?

3. Is the resistance when the motor not running (or once it reached 25kmph) a problem?

Thanks!

 

[SlowCo]

I have a Giant electric bike (Explore E+), 36V/250W, max 25kmph

There is a "tuning" option available that enables the motor to keep assisting past 25km/h. https://www.ebiketuning.com/e-bike-tuning/greenped.html

 

[GastonBlunder]

Thanks but I don't want to tinker with it It is brand new and I prefer to avoid problems if I want to sell it.
Also my goal is not to go faster with the motor but to go faster by myself on the flat/downhill and make my ride more enjoyable by using a lighter bike.

 

[RicMcK]

I finally got my dual chainring configured. The chain alignment is not as good as I would like, but I think it will work.

I trimmed (thinned) both the inside of the spider and the outside of large ring to reduce the amount of offset. Then I added 3 thin SS washers to offset the spider. I then put silicone to fill the gap between the spider (where the o-ring is. I then made a spacer to move the front derailleur outboard. I may order a set of 52/42 steel rings if the offset seems to wear the chain to much

19-07-06_6.40.19PM-747x1328.jpg

19-07-06_6.38.50PM-747x1328.jpg

19-07-05_4.05.09PM-1328x747.jpg

19-07-06_6.40.38PM-747x1328.jpg

Adding another chainring reduces square tapper axle length which can cause friction between the spider and the crank when thightened around 18Nm . Underthightening is not an option.

I updated this setup (I made a separate post with details and photos) with a standard spider, stock steel inner chainring, and the same trimmed 53 tooth ring. I was able to mount both on the inside and the spider (needed to trim the chainring mounting nuts & bolts). Then I added 1 thin SS washer between the spider and drive mount. I filled the gap with silicone.

I am now using a normal (no offset needed) dual ring front derailleur, as it has plenty of travel.

The chain line is now Great , and it shifts much better.

 

[RicMcK]

Hi,

I replaced the sprag cluch on my engine but it turns out the play is between the inner race of the sprag and the axle. The problem is that the fit of the sprag on axle is loose and the presence of the key makes it even looser. I'm working on a key that can be expanded to fix the sprag better to the axle. I tried shimming between sprag and axle, but was not successful with the materials available.

Regards,
Rba

Almost seems like the play is intentional for ease of installation. Quite weird when knowing that helical gears normally work with conical roller bearings to take the side loads. Mine suddenly started to make perriodic rough grinding noise when completely unloaded on to of the usual gear mesh sound.

I just did an r&r of sparg clutch as the bearing had some slop (wiggle) on the axel. I cleaned it up and put some Loctite 660 on the key & key way & on axel and bearing. It is now tight with only a little bearing play..

 

[manoz]

i think someone attempted to steal my motor as the screws holding the black plate behind the silver ring are missing. I'm going to email the seller on aliexpress to see if i can get replacement screws and standoffs.

Anyways my motor has developed another problem. I'm getting no assistance whatsoever now. I've done about 2500 miles. i replaced the blue gear with a brass one after 1000 miles. the display works, checked the connection on battery too, disconnecting and reconnecting. essentially i rode into town and everything was normal. stopped off and got back on the bike only the motor was struggling to give assistance. i could hear the motor working and there was a slight difference when changing assistance levels. came home and took the motor apart and put it back together and now there is no assistance. could it be the sprag clutch? i have a replacement one in a box already but not sure if that is the issue?

 

[manoz]

Hi folks,
last Saturday my good old TSDZ2 with nearly 11000 km of mileage passed away in surprisingly brutal manner. I missed a pothole on a forest road and fell from my bike over the chain side. Nothing serious happened to me, just a couple of minor scratches. I continued my trip but noticed that I've lost torque sensing: the motor always applied full power regardless of how strong I push pedals. After restart I've lost any assistance at all and continued my trip ride home on my own. I also noticed an unusual creaking sound and wobbling of the sprocket. After few kilometres sounds became worse, like metal against metal grinding, my pedals locked and eventually bang! The pedals became totally free , I can rotate them in either direction with no effect. First thought was that the sprag clutch has broken. But today I've opened my motor and realised that the situation is much worse. The lower coil and the magnet has been ground into total mess, the torque sensor broke into two parts, everything is covered with mix of magnet debris and grease.
IMG_6246.jpg
IMG_6248.jpg
IMG_6247.jpg
IMG_6249.jpg

Surprisingly though that the axle is not bent
IMG_6253.jpg

Even the shaft has grooves inside
IMG_6251.jpg
IMG_6253.jpg

So I considered this damage as unrecoverable and ordered a brand new 48V TSDZ2, Bafang 850C display and a 52V 15Ah battery. As you might have guessed, I'm going to flash the OpenSource firmware onto it.

That's my sad story, folks. Don't fall from your bike, at least try not to fall on the right side.

I think however 11000 km is a good achievement for TSDZ2.

I think 11000 km is an amazing distance given the price point unless it had been serviced regularly?

Of course I did some maintenance and once replaced a broken sprag clutch (that was epic BTW: gas torch, lots of heat and ice bucket). But nothing really special, just open once a year and regrease everything.

could you please give a brief outline of how you did this? thank you. also would i need specialist tools?

 

[thineight]

i think someone attempted to steal my motor as the screws holding the black plate behind the silver ring are missing. I'm going to email the seller on aliexpress to see if i can get replacement screws and standoffs.

Hello, strange that someone tried to unscrew the bolts.. are you sure that they were tight enough with no leverage effect? I had to add some little washers between the plate and the screw head (i had also to replace with slightly longer ones) to make it flush while tightening.
You can find the skrews in any regular shop without problems, of the exact length you need. They are a very common replacement.

 

[manoz]

i think someone attempted to steal my motor as the screws holding the black plate behind the silver ring are missing. I'm going to email the seller on aliexpress to see if i can get replacement screws and standoffs.

Hello, strange that someone tried to unscrew the bolts.. are you sure that they were tight enough with no leverage effect? I had to add some little washers between the plate and the screw head (i had also to replace with slightly longer ones) to make it flush while tightening.
You can find the skrews in any regular shop without problems, of the exact length you need. They are a very common replacement.

I understand I can get the screws but not sure about the washer/standoffs?. Yeah I tightened everything tight but that being said about a week ago my chain came off and noticed the motor was loose. The silver ring had come undone. Such a shame that every week or so I get some sort of problem. I use the motor for work so any trouble means lost money

 

[knutselmaaster]

Use some loctite on the thread of the 2 screws, put some washers to assure the plate is tightened 100% flat.
Put some grease on the big ring's thread and tighten it as strong as you can, don't hesitate to make the special tool a bit longer (using a tube for example) to be able to put more torque on the tightening. I've tightened extremely hard on several installations and never stripped the thread.
Watch out though that the special tool is perfectly placed on the ring to prevent it from jumping out (damaging the ring and probably your hand).

 

[manoz]

Use some loctite on the thread of the 2 screws, put some washers to assure the plate is tightened 100% flat.
Put some grease on the big ring's thread and tighten it as strong as you can, don't hesitate to make the special tool a bit longer (using a tube for example) to be able to put more torque on the tightening. I've tightened extremely hard on several installations and never stripped the thread.
Watch out though that the special tool is perfectly placed on the ring to prevent it from jumping out (damaging the ring and probably your hand)

Well when I tightened it i didnt use the included tool. I used a metal object which i stuck in one of the grooves and hammered it. When I took off the motor today I tried using the tool to undo it but couldn't, it was that tight, so had to resort to using the same method with object and hammer to loosen it. Those missing screws probably explains the squeak I'm getting when putting power down on the pedals. Tomorrow I'll attempt to replace the sprag clutch. Of that doesn't work, will have to bite the bullet and buy another motor. Mostly i use the motor in the lowest assist with out of the saddle riding, sprints and hill climbs.

 

[thineight]

Use some loctite on the thread of the 2 screws, put some washers to assure the plate is tightened 100% flat.
Put some grease on the big ring's thread and tighten it as strong as you can, don't hesitate to make the special tool a bit longer (using a tube for example) to be able to put more torque on the tightening. I've tightened extremely hard on several installations and never stripped the thread.
Watch out though that the special tool is perfectly placed on the ring to prevent it from jumping out (damaging the ring and probably your hand)

Well when I tightened it i didnt use the included tool. I used a metal object which i stuck in one of the grooves and hammered it. When I took off the motor today I tried using the tool to undo it but couldn't, it was that tight, so had to resort to using the same method with object and hammer to loosen it. Those missing screws probably explains the squeak I'm getting when putting power down on the pedals. Tomorrow I'll attempt to replace the sprag clutch. Of that doesn't work, will have to bite the bullet and buy another motor. Mostly i use the motor in the lowest assist with out of the saddle riding, sprints and hill climbs.

I would nor suggest to anyone to use hammer for this task..
anyway my experience after the first installation is that at the end of each trip you double check the tightening of the following screws/nuts:
- pedal screws
- big silver ring (I cut one piece of it in order to fit it anyway even if the pedals are installed)
- securing skrews
The first 2 are used to get undone on the first trips.. after a while they will be secure and do not need any further adjustment.

 

[casainho]

I have a Giant electric bike (Explore E+), 36V/250W, max 25kmph
It's powerful and great to go uphill but once on the flat or downhill it's heavy like a tank and I don't have much fun riding it.

1. Given these inputs, with the TSDZ2 how fast can I go uphill, at a 5% gradient? Will the motor be able to sustain 25kmph with a bit of help from myself?
I am a bit worried by this:

Climbing hills on 52t and 28t seems impossible. Some people in this thread report motor being too weak for moderate hills (4-8%) in general.

With TSDZ2 and our OpenSource knowledge and firmware, you have real numbers and not marketing BS.

Since you already drive an ebike, should be easy for you to compare and do your own math, here some numbers of TSDZ2:
- TSDZ2 should be run continuously pulling about 10 amps from the battery and if you decide to install the temperature sensor, then our firmware will automatically optimize and protect the motor and then you can pull any higher value from the 10 to 18 amps for shorts periods of time like 15 minutes that can be enough for a step hill or busy road where you want to go at max speed possible (I do like 45 km/h)
- our firmware does not limit the max speed, TSDZ2 can pull me over 55km/h on descends, where I am using 52T at front and 11T at rear on a MTB bicycle
- light MTB is really great with a TSDZ2, and you are light, my weight for instance if 105kgs. I love my light full suspension MTB running our OpenSource firmware, configured for fast response and with the torque sensor full calibrated, where it can measure linearly any weight value on the pedals from 1kg up to the 105 kgs of my weight

See that TSDZ2 weight is about 3.6kgs and you can have battery pack of 500Wh with 2.4kg (14S3P of 3600mAh cells, the same I am using on my MTB), so, total of 6kg for TSDZ2 + 500Wh battery.

 

[GastonBlunder]

Thanks Casainho.

What you achieved with the OSF is amazing, I will be happy to test it.

Where did you get that battery?
I can't find anything that small on ebay or aliexpress. And even for larger batteries equipped with 3600mAh cells, I am not sure if the sellers are reliable.
Perhaps you build it yourself, I remember having read someone building custom batteries, maybe it was you?

 

[casainho]

Thanks Casainho.

What you achieved with the OSF is amazing, I will be happy to test it.

Where did you get that battery?
I can't find anything that small on ebay or aliexpress. And even for larger batteries equipped with 3600mAh cells, I am not sure if the sellers are reliable.
Perhaps you build it yourself, I remember having read someone building custom batteries, maybe it was you?

Yes, I had to pay for a local shop to build it.

The true is that on Ebay you will only find BIG and heavy battery packs. At the local shop, they build with the best cells on the market and let me choose them and the battery can have any shape I desire. I think is the only way to get a light bicycle.

Original message with pictures:

I am sharing pictures of the battery pack I built for using with TSDZ2.

I am using the most power density cells available on the market, the LG INR18650-M36 3600mAh - 10A.
Using this cells, my pack as 14S3P (14 cells in series and 3 cells in parallel) of 42 cells in total.

This pack has about 525 Wh and weighs only about 2.5 kgs (including the weight of BMS, connectors, etc). My girlfriend wants a light bicycle so I decided to use this cells/battery on his bicycle. Next I will do another for my bicycle and I will keep my older big packs (that use the same cells) to use when we do long rides like near or over 100 kms in a day.

I am using for the first time the chinese popular BMS with Bluetooth, the "Smart BMS with Bluetooth", that we can find in many online shops. This BMS would be very easy to develop firmware for if we want (used Arduino AVR microcontroller and popular battery management IC) but there is a lot of information about it, including the communication protocol.

I think I will need to limit on LCD3 the battery current to be 10 Amps, other way this cells may heat to much and damage quick but I will configure the BMS temperature sensors protection and I will keep a loop at the temperature to find the "max" average current for this cells in 3P.











My girlfriend bicycle:

 

[casainho]

PAS sensor fail and repair

I put the following information on the wiki: https://github.com/OpenSource-EBike-firmware/TSDZ2_wiki/wiki/FAQ#PAS_sensor

I got the PAS sensor working intermittently and after disassembling TSDZ2 motor controller to inspect, I saw the following (left side is the sensor failing and on right side is new one):

Seems the failing sensor was sanded (about 1 millimeter) by the torque sensor part ring where the 20 small magnets are. Why did it happen? Maybe when I previously disassembled and assembled again the torque sensor I did not install a needed washer? Or maybe there is now some looseness of the axle where the torque sensor is due to wear after the many usage I did to the motor?

To repair, I exchanged the PAS sensor to a new one from a broken motor controller I had, by cutting the original 4 color wires of the old one to solder the wires of the new one. This time I put 2 little washers between the PAS sensor and the place it is screwed so it is now far way about 1 millimeter and with this I hope it will not be sanded enough, by the torque sensor, to fail. Other option to repair could be simple exchange for a new motor controller however I would need also to put that 2 little washers under the PAS sensor.

 

[romelec]

I'm making a thinner gear cover to get a few more milimeters on the chainline. Prototype is 1mm thick, and the spacers for the chainring are 3.2mm so it's 3.2mm closer. Still need to shave a few tenths off the cover or make the spacers thinner as it rubs a bit. Maybe I can put it around 0.2-0.5mm closer to the gear but that's probably on the limit already. Could get about 0.5mm more if I could get flush bolts for the chainring.

Chainline:

Chainring is 34t SRAM, zero offset. Top 3 gears were useless with stock cover as the chain was very sideways. Hopefully this will bring shifting closer to the original 42t (which has 5mm offset I think)

Did you finish the cover, how does tit works ? Do you mind sharing the source/step files ?
I would like to print one to have a better chain line.

 

[GastonBlunder]

Thanks Casainho.

What you achieved with the OSF is amazing, I will be happy to test it.

Where did you get that battery?
I can't find anything that small on ebay or aliexpress. And even for larger batteries equipped with 3600mAh cells, I am not sure if the sellers are reliable.
Perhaps you build it yourself, I remember having read someone building custom batteries, maybe it was you?

Yes, I had to pay for a local shop to build it.

The true is that on Ebay you will only find BIG and heavy battery packs. At the local shop, they build with the best cells on the market and let me choose them and the battery can have any shape I desire. I think is the only way to get a light bicycle.

Original message with pictures:

I am sharing pictures of the battery pack I built for using with TSDZ2.

I am using the most power density cells available on the market, the LG INR18650-M36 3600mAh - 10A.
Using this cells, my pack as 14S3P (14 cells in series and 3 cells in parallel) of 42 cells in total.

This pack has about 525 Wh and weighs only about 2.5 kgs (including the weight of BMS, connectors, etc). My girlfriend wants a light bicycle so I decided to use this cells/battery on his bicycle. Next I will do another for my bicycle and I will keep my older big packs (that use the same cells) to use when we do long rides like near or over 100 kms in a day.

I am using for the first time the chinese popular BMS with Bluetooth, the "Smart BMS with Bluetooth", that we can find in many online shops. This BMS would be very easy to develop firmware for if we want (used Arduino AVR microcontroller and popular battery management IC) but there is a lot of information about it, including the communication protocol.

I think I will need to limit on LCD3 the battery current to be 10 Amps, other way this cells may heat to much and damage quick but I will configure the BMS temperature sensors protection and I will keep a loop at the temperature to find the "max" average current for this cells in 3P.

That is a very nice build, this bike must be flying!

Unfortunately I don't think I can find a local shop that can make this kind of batteries.

Since the small batteries (e.g. bottle types) are 36V I may buy a 36V motor but I am still unclear about the supposed advantages of a 48V TSDZ2 over a 36V.

From what I read, the 48V has a bit more torque, heats less and is quieter.
That may be true with the stock firmware but it looks like that with the OSF there are not much differences at the end.
Also a lot people on the internet recommend using 48V motors in general but that may not apply to the TSDZ2.
Am I missing something that makes the 48V really better?

 

[xyrus]

48V in my opinion better because you will draw less amps out of the battery and would provide more torque.

500w / 48v = 10,41 ampere
500w / 36v = 13,8 ampere

Less ampere from the battery means lower wear on the cells and less losses in the wiring and motor. And I like to have as much watt hours in my battery for range.

48v * 17,5a = 840 watt hours
36v * 17,5a = 630 watt hours

The 36v battery would be lighter, but less range, 48v is bigger, more heavier, but more range.

Depens on your needs and likings, maybe the rest of your bikes is allready 36v, in that case you could swap battery's when you buy a similar voltage battery

 

[GastonBlunder]

Battery wise I guess I would be fine with 36V.
But why would the torque be higher with the 48V motor?

 

[btslo]

I'm making a thinner gear cover to get a few more milimeters on the chainline. Prototype is 1mm thick, and the spacers for the chainring are 3.2mm so it's 3.2mm closer. Still need to shave a few tenths off the cover or make the spacers thinner as it rubs a bit. Maybe I can put it around 0.2-0.5mm closer to the gear but that's probably on the limit already. Could get about 0.5mm more if I could get flush bolts for the chainring.

Chainline:

Chainring is 34t SRAM, zero offset. Top 3 gears were useless with stock cover as the chain was very sideways. Hopefully this will bring shifting closer to the original 42t (which has 5mm offset I think)

Did you finish the cover, how does tit works ? Do you mind sharing the source/step files ?
I would like to print one to have a better chain line.

I put it on hold since the pinion gear stuck out about 2mm and max I would get would be around 2mm extra offset. I can send you the files and you can edit them, you may have more luck (in the end I cut 5mm off my bottom bracket)

 

[xyrus]

Battery wise I guess I would be fine with 36V.
But why would the torque be higher with the 48V motor?

In theory you could run max 18a for a moment, so higher to voltage with the same amperes drawn, the higher the ouput watt of the motor without burning out your controller. That is not the same as torque, but it is related in this case.

18*48=864 watt
18*36=648 watt