New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

[amberwolf]

In an unvented, as the TSDZ2 should be, with plenty of volume of spare space inside the sealed system, heat should not have much effect on the atmospheric pressure within the motor and shouldn't be able to draw in moisture from the external air mass.

If you watch Justin_LE's video about water ingress in motors (there's a thread discussing it around here someplace, and it's rpboably on Grin's YT channel) you'll see that this is apparently a common problem, and makes it nearly impossible to seal a motor completely against ingress, as it will even get in along wires thru the conductors and between individual wires in a jacket of several. It can take a lot of cycles to draw the water in...but in a sealed system, there's nowhere for the water that *does* get in to get out.

 

[knutselmaaster]

Very useful information indeed. This might be helpful also for displays that show condensation on the inside.

Changing desiccant every 12 months would be too much to ask for.

It wouldn't on hobby projects but it is impossible to do that on the "real" ebikes of my shop's clients though.

 

[sysrq]

Very useful information indeed. This might be helpful also for displays that show condensation on the inside.

Changing desiccant every 12 months would be too much to ask for.

It wouldn't on hobby projects but it is impossible to do that on the "real" ebikes of my shop's clients though.

Might be easier to do it if there was a desiccant breather or something more appropriate.

 

[Waynemarlow]

It can take a lot of cycles to draw the water in...but in a sealed system, there's nowhere for the water that *does* get in to get out.

Yup you are right, but then most manufacturers have a maintenance schedule where known problems, such as water collection, can be drained and the motor resealed.

On the TSDZ2 its only a couple of covers that take about 30 minutes to take off, clean and dry, refresh the grease I have suggested covering the main set of wires and entry port at the bottom of the motor.

Drill a hole and everytime I go through a puddle and water is hosed off the front wheel directly onto the side cover, I know there's going to be water inside the case, tip the bike upside down to fix a puncture and I now know the vent hole at the top is now letting water into the motor and electronics compartment itself.

Sorry but I would reckon for my environment, putting a hole purposely into the engine would be not the right thing to do.

 

[Mackiezn]

Yes, the seals on them from the factory are just dust seals and the waterproofing of the whole engine relies on the small seal in the outer chain ring holder and the O ring on the bearing face itself. Once the bearing wears, the axle will move up and down a bit wearing that outer seal out pretty quickly if you start putting it in a muddy environment.

Early motors didn't actually have a full seal on the chainring carrier and only had a dust seal. Those with early motors, a 104bcd carrier is only 25 notes, it will prolong the life of that bearing enormously.

Thanks

 

[amberwolf]

Yup you are right, but then most manufacturers have a maintenance schedule where known problems, such as water collection, can be drained and the motor resealed.

Perhaps the OEM bikes do; never looked into those for such things. But none of the typical "chinese kits" or bare motors and such I've ever seen or worked with have anything like that available, that I am aware of (not having deliberately searched it out for them; none were ever provided with anything).

Does this kit have such a schedule; and/or do others like it? Where do you find it from the manufacturer?

Sorry but I would reckon for my environment, putting a hole purposely into the engine would be not the right thing to do.

It's different for every situation; you wouldn't generally want one when riding in flooded or rivery paths, for instance. But if water does get in, it's a good idea to get it out as soon as possible, however you choose to do it.

 

[casainho]

I would like to share this video, where I am controlling the TSDZ2 wireless board using my cycling GPS unit. As a test, I am changing assist level on the display and when value is zero it disable the motor voltage (45V from my power supply) and enable the motor voltage when assist level higher than zero:

[youtube]P9KJfSMeXSI[/youtube]

Soon I hope to have a first working version as the only new thing that is the wireless part, is done!

The board is very cheap, 25€, and simple for DIY, this is the current board and I hope to simplify even a bit more - see the project page:

 

[manoz85]

Anyone had a brass gear shred to pieces? I was out for a ride yesterday and it became very difficult to pedal under assist and felt like I was fighting with the motor. Took the motor apart and took the brass gear out and this is what it looked like, the housing had load of brass "glitter" in it too, some teeth had been cut off.



I replaced it with a blue gear and the ride today was fine except near the end when it started resisting like before but I switched off the assist and rode home.

What could have caused this?

 

[casainho]

Anyone had a brass gear shred to pieces? I was out for a ride yesterday and it became very difficult to pedal under assist and felt like I was fighting with the motor. Took the motor apart and took the brass gear out and this is what it looked like, the housing had load of brass "glitter" in it too, some teeth had been cut off.

20200710_204419.jpg

I replaced it with a blue gear and the ride today was fine except near the end when it started resisting like before but I switched off the assist and rode home.

What could have caused this?

I would say it was the motor shaft to eat both gears, motor shaft seems to be of a very strong metal, more strong than the brass.

I would say there is some extra space / play that makes or the gear or the motor shaft come out of place, even for a bit. May the motor bearings on the shaft have issues?

And be careful to not break the motor shaft on your assembling and tests, because the motor is a bit expensive - see the wiki about this.

 

[manoz85]

Anyone had a brass gear shred to pieces? I was out for a ride yesterday and it became very difficult to pedal under assist and felt like I was fighting with the motor. Took the motor apart and took the brass gear out and this is what it looked like, the housing had load of brass "glitter" in it too, some teeth had been cut off.

20200710_204419.jpg

I replaced it with a blue gear and the ride today was fine except near the end when it started resisting like before but I switched off the assist and rode home.

What could have caused this?

I would say it was the motor shaft to eat both gears, motor shaft seems to be of a very strong metal, more strong than the brass.

I would say there is some extra space / play that makes or the gear or the motor shaft come out of place, even for a bit. May the motor bearings on the shaft have issues?

And be careful to not break the motor shaft on your assembling and tests, because the motor is a bit expensive - see the wiki about this.

Thanks for the response, could the bearing that the end of the motor shaft fits into be worn? Is there a better bearing I can replace it with?

 

[devboy-greg]

Thanks for the response, could the bearing that the end of the motor shaft fits into be worn? Is there a better bearing I can replace it with?

It could be this bearing on the pinion gear.



I fitted a brand new motor to a bike about a month ago which started whining after about 5 miles, when I got back I stripped my brand new motor to find this pinion wobbling about like a jockey's elbow! Fortunately I had a spare bearing in stock.

I've had no problems since it's replacement. I plan to replace most of the bearings in my 2 motors as good quality bearings aren't that expensive and are easy to source.

 

[manoz85]

Thanks for the response, could the bearing that the end of the motor shaft fits into be worn? Is there a better bearing I can replace it with?

It could be this bearing on the pinion gear.

tsdz2-pinion.jpg

I fitted a brand new motor to a bike about a month ago which started whining after about 5 miles, when I got back I stripped my brand new motor to find this pinion wobbling about like a jockey's elbow! Fortunately I had a spare bearing in stock.

I've had no problems since it's replacement. I plan to replace most of the bearings in my 2 motors as good quality bearings aren't that expensive and are easy to source.

Thanks I'll have to look into it, is that removed via circlip?

 

[devboy-greg]

Thanks for the response, could the bearing that the end of the motor shaft fits into be worn? Is there a better bearing I can replace it with?

It could be this bearing on the pinion gear.

I fitted a brand new motor to a bike about a month ago which started whining after about 5 miles, when I got back I stripped my brand new motor to find this pinion wobbling about like a jockey's elbow! Fortunately I had a spare bearing in stock.

I've had no problems since it's replacement. I plan to replace most of the bearings in my 2 motors as good quality bearings aren't that expensive and are easy to source.

Thanks I'll have to look into it, is that removed via circlip?

I can't exactly remember, but I think it's a gentle tap out.

 

[Mackiezn]

Thanks for the response, could the bearing that the end of the motor shaft fits into be worn? Is there a better bearing I can replace it with?

It could be this bearing on the pinion gear.

I fitted a brand new motor to a bike about a month ago which started whining after about 5 miles, when I got back I stripped my brand new motor to find this pinion wobbling about like a jockey's elbow! Fortunately I had a spare bearing in stock.

I've had no problems since it's replacement. I plan to replace most of the bearings in my 2 motors as good quality bearings aren't that expensive and are easy to source.

Do you remember the specs of the bearing?
I noticed the teeth on my brass gear were a little indented when I opened up my motor.

 

[drpop]

Hi folks. I'm used to riding a front wheel hub conversion as a tarmac-only commuter and have dropped enough weight (35 kg) in the last few months that I've recently added a TSDZ2 to a hardtail mountain bike so-as-to give me a 'bit of help' in enjoying some offroad gravel trails... not 'real mountain biking', but certainly, there will be mud. It rains. I'm in Scotland. I'm 'over 50' - 110kg; aiming for 95 by end of the year, and handy enough at hobby levels of mechanical and electrical engineering.

I bought a TSDZ2 48v 750 - & - 48V 13AH Battery and have an 850C on its way in the next few weeks. I have the heat sensor, soldering tools, and shrink wraps arriving soon.

In the meantime, I've successfully fitted the motor, brake sensors, throttle, and the latest vlcd5-version of the opensource firmware. Reading here and scared of killing me new motor, I configured to what I thought would be fairly conservative settings and a quick test ride around my hilly local area.

Being wary of my weight and the reports of breaking the torque sensor I never really went REALLY heavy on the pedals the same way as I used to on the wheel hub... Still, with considered gearing and a 'spirited' amount of legwork, it got me up and round a few places that I would have previously have needed to get off and walk. I touch tested the motor a few times for heat, but it never got all that hot at any time. It felt really good to ride!

However. The 'live' KPH invariably reads 00:00 except when I toggle the lights when it shows an error code. switching the lights off makes the kph show as 6.9 for a few seconds, then it settles. This doesn't appear to otherwise affect anything and I am also getting an average KPH reading. The light/error code issue is a known issue in the wiki, but the lack of live kph worries me a bit.. is this going to be a problem?

Also.. which would kick in first... the 500w limit or the 15A... at 48V would this effectively cut of at 10A at all times?

overall though... so pleased with things so far... just a bit skint and wary

 

[Elinx]

..... Reading here and scared of killing me new motor, I configured to what I thought would be fairly conservative settings ....
.......... I touch tested the motor a few times for heat, but it never got all that hot at any time.....
....Also.. which would kick in first... the 500w limit or the 15A... at 48V would this effectively cut of at 10A at all times?
....

If you haven't installed heatconductive material inside the motorcasing, you can't trust the feel of heat by touching the case.

Your settings are indeed conservative. With 500W limit and full battery (54V) you will have about 9A max (500/54) and with almost empty battery (39V) you pull about 13A max. (500/39) out of the battery. You will never reach the 15A limit.
For that, the limit off power is 600W (11A-15A limit). That is about 12,5A for 48V for most of the time.

For data reading options on display I refer to the display operation manual (it looks to me that 0:00 is the temperature (if no sensor) and 6.9 some other data, maybe battery 69%)

About breaking the axle, that could happen with offroad biking standing on the pedals with jumps. Imho on roads that risc is a lot less.


,

 

[drpop]

>For data reading options on display I refer to the display operation manual (it looks to me that 0:00 is the temperature and 6.9 some other data)

Phew. You're a star! I'd convinced my self i'd fried something. This makes sense just need to work out how to show current kph now!

Is there a rule-of-thumb in with managing the heat? Is it a matter of keeping the average wattage down? I'm guessing higher V and lower A would be better for this?

 

[Elinx]

.....

Is there a rule-of-thumb in with managing the heat? ..... higher V and lower A would be better for this?

Not really a rule of thumb, but you are right about the lower A, what is some people do with a 36V motor combined with 52V battery.
With 36V 350W nominal you have about 10A, with 52V and same 10A you have 520W power and probably with same heat. Ofcourse it wiil be not exactly the same, because there will be more mechanical heat with the higher possible rpm.

 

[ilu]

>For data reading options on display I refer to the display operation manual (it looks to me that 0:00 is the temperature and 6.9 some other data)

Phew. You're a star! I'd convinced my self i'd fried something. This makes sense just need to work out how to show current kph now!

Is there a rule-of-thumb in with managing the heat? Is it a matter of keeping the average wattage down? I'm guessing higher V and lower A would be better for this?

The speed should be live on the screen most of the time, if it isn't, check the aligment of the speed sensor and magnet. Note that the sensor is not at the round part of the plastic housing but in the more narrow sector showing a tiny arrow. The magnet should pass this within few millimeters.

When you turn on the lights the error code E02 means you can now show different parameters which are configured on the advanced page. When you hover mouse cursor over the fields you can see a table of what each number means. There you can also set the amount and duration of values shown.

 

[drpop]

check the aligment of the speed sensor and magnet. Note that the sensor is not at the round part of the plastic housing but in the more narrow sector showing a tiny arrow. The magnet should pass this within few millimeters.

I've had at from 2mm away all the way up to around 25mm and still no luck...i'll keep trying. knowing that the 'error codes' are actually usefull features is great though!

---

My heat sensor arrived this morning and i hope to install this evening. I have the 8 pin 'with throttle' and i understand that i can cut-and-splice into the throttle wire. Am I safe to do this with the 5V as well? What about the Ground? should i just t-splice into the cables like in the wiki? Am i safe to cut the ground to the lcd?

Thx.

 

[Doohickey]

My heat sensor arrived this morning and i hope to install this evening. I have the 8 pin 'with throttle' and i understand that i can cut-and-splice into the throttle wire. Am I safe to do this with the 5V as well? What about the Ground? should i just t-splice into the cables like in the wiki? Am i safe to cut the ground to the lcd?

Thx.

I posted a picture of how I did it here earlier in this thread: https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=79788&p=1507009#p1507009

Only the ground needs to go to the LCD, so this is the only one where you need to do a t splice (this is with the sw102, maybe the stock display does need the 5v as well (?)). The 5v and the throttle wires don't need to go to the display (with sw102..), so I just cut, and soldered the sensor to the controller end of the cut wire, leaving the wire ends going to the display disconnected (heatshrink over the ends). Everything is inside the casing.

 

[drpop]

amazingly helpful. cheers.

 

[hannes500kw]

Trying to fit a motor on a vitus nucleus and running into trouble with the chainstays. My plan is to grind on the motorhousing and using washers. Right now i have about 8-9mm on the left hand side. Can I grind 1-2mm off the frame as well?

 

[ilu]

Trying to fit a motor on a vitus nucleus and running into trouble with the chainstays. My plan is to grind on the motorhousing and using washers. Right now i have about 8-9mm on the left hand side. Can I grind 1-2mm off the frame as well?

I think 8mm on the left side should be enough, as long as you can fit the support plate and the main nut. Just make sure you use enough washers on the drive side to fit the axle fully straight, if the housing presses on the chainstay and makes it even slightly slanted, you will definately run into problems. I filed a tiny groove in the chainstay of my steel Honzo frame, but I wouldn't do that with aluminium.

 

[drpop]

I went ahead with the heat sensor mod.. everything seemed to go well... right until I was replacing the right-hand plate where-upon the final hex bolt sheered in the housing. :x

I went ahead and had a quick test... and I got an Eo-6 error message - which I am assuming is the over-temperature errror. Switched it all off while I work out how to remove the sheered bolt. Thx for the help so far folks.