New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

[famichiki]

Ugh.. It looks like my sprag clutch is fine and it's the whole assembly that moves, big gear and clutch together. There's 0.2mm play in-out which I guess due to a loose fit of the sprag clutch on the axle translates to a larger wobble on the outer spider/chainring.

Since mine is a newer model I don't have the shim(s) between the big gear and sprag clutch as seen in Jbalat's video still below.



A shim of 30mm ID x about 40mm OD is required, I ordered 30 x 42 in a few thicknesses and plan to fit behind the circlip rather than between the clutch and big gear.

This previous discussion relates to fitting shim washers on the non-drive side and I have a second bearing coming for that side, so I've grabbed some shims too. That link says the non-drive side shims should be 16mm ID x 22mm OD, any reason for this? I thought 15mm the same as the shaft would be better.
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=79788&p=1512178&hilit=shim#p1512178

In addition to all this, with the big gear removed the pinion gear spins freely with minimal effort and locks up in reverse. So my concerns about that causing increase pedalling effort are unfounded. Could the difference between helical and straight toothed gearing somehow be why some people report difficulty and others don't have any complaints?

 

[James Broadhurst]

Noisy TSDZ2 with coaster brake

I’ve got one of these fitted to a Cube stepthrough frame and it’s making more noise than I think it should. There’s nothing obvious that might be causing this. The frame was always “noisy” to begin with. Runs on version 19.0 with KTLCD3 display.

Normally I’d just replace the plastic gear, pinion and main gear and that would be it but what is the difference between the motor with and without a coaster brake, please?

 

[hetm4n]

Hello. After about 1000 km, I have a problem with the torque sensor. At a standstill, with the pedals set horizontally without load, 192 shows once, after driving a few km 200, again after a few km 196, etc. the same is true when the pedal in a horizontal position loads its weight. Once I have 275, after a few km I have 298, after a few km I have 285, etc. system reset does not help. I was calibrating the torque sensor, and I have different characteristics each time. What may be the problem? I'm using 0.8.0 software

 

[maximusdm]

Hello. After about 1000 km, I have a problem with the torque sensor. At a standstill, with the pedals set horizontally without load, 192 shows once, after driving a few km 200, again after a few km 196, etc. the same is true when the pedal in a horizontal position loads its weight. Once I have 275, after a few km I have 298, after a few km I have 285, etc. system reset does not help. I was calibrating the torque sensor, and I have different characteristics each time. What may be the problem? I'm using 0.8.0 software

The torque sensor has 2 small screws, that keep the sensor part connected to the body. It is possbile that the screws are loose or even one fell and the hall sensors are moving. The only way to check is to take out the torque sensor and inspect it.

 

[famichiki]

It's difficult to pin the unpowered pedalling resistance on any one part. Helical gears have more friction than straight cut, but it doesn't seem like much effort in reality. With the drive side cover removed everything spins freely by hand. I noticed the largest increase in effort when I replaced the side cover - the seal around the main gear is the culprit. Greasing it didn't improve things and perhaps a proper rotary shaft seal would have been more appropriate here. Any ideas how to improve this?

 

[Waynemarlow]

Sadly this seal is the one seal that creates most problems in my view with the water proofing of the motor. In reality the amount of effort spinning the motor by hand and feeling that difference when seated and pushing on 175mm cranks is actually pretty small amount of effort.

You either have to accept a bit of resistance with that seal in there and the motor being waterproofish or completely revamp that whole outside cover ( 3D print a cover with a large seal / O ring ) and gain only a marginally small gain on the resistance.

I've come to the conclusion is that for what we pay for the motors, a bit of resistance on the very very few occasions I've had to peddle home and the replacement of an engine occasionally is the compromise over buying a Bosch and the likes and have my speed limited to 25kph.

Speaking of this seal, does anyone have one spare, I could build a complete motor out of bits, but I cannot buy that seal.

 

[Elinx]

...
Speaking of this seal, does anyone have one spare, I could build a complete motor out of bits, but I cannot buy that seal.

Maybe you can buy an O-ring seal at a specialized shop, if you know the exact dimensions of the tsdz2 seal.

 

[Waynemarlow]

The TSDZ2 seal is actually shaped like a double seal as in it has two sharp faces to seal up against the plastic cover, by its shape the seal should rotate within the cover rather than the bearing face rotating in the seal. I'm not sure which way it was designed to be as its pretty normal for the seal to be fixed in the cover, mmmm.

Whatever an O ring would be a less seal than the factory one but if needs must. Anyone got a spare ?

 

[eyebyesickle]

The TSDZ2 seal is actually shaped like a double seal as in it has two sharp faces to seal up against the plastic cover, by its shape the seal should rotate within the cover rather than the bearing face rotating in the seal. I'm not sure which way it was designed to be as its pretty normal for the seal to be fixed in the cover, mmmm.

Whatever an O ring would be a less seal than the factory one but if needs must. Anyone got a spare ?

Send me a PM with your email, I have some of those coming, and I have a collection of literally all other parts... Been a pain to do but I've slowly been accumulating them.

 

[Waynemarlow]

Thanks

 

[famichiki]

The TSDZ2 seal is actually shaped like a double seal as in it has two sharp faces to seal up against the plastic cover, by its shape the seal should rotate within the cover rather than the bearing face rotating in the seal. I'm not sure which way it was designed to be as its pretty normal for the seal to be fixed in the cover, mmmm.

The outer V groove in the seal collects a lot of grit too, so at least it's keeping that out. It also has that V design on the opposite side and on the ID, just not the OD which is flat.

The seal is actually not wide enough to fill the recess in the cover properly. If you seat it touching the face of the big gear like in my photo there is 1-2mm gap between the the seal and the face of the cover. You can test this by sliding the seal to the edge of the big gear and putting the cover on, it won't be pushed all the way back to the big gear.

At the risk of adding more drag, the sealing could be improved with an o-ring added in front or behind the seal.

I gave mine a good clean up and tested it with oil and then grease - the oil reduced the drag slightly, although won't last as long nor be as an effective seal as grease would be.

Sadly this seal is the one seal that creates most problems in my view with the water proofing of the motor. In reality the amount of effort spinning the motor by hand and feeling that difference when seated and pushing on 175mm cranks is actually pretty small amount of effort.

You either have to accept a bit of resistance with that seal in there and the motor being waterproofish or completely revamp that whole outside cover ( 3D print a cover with a large seal / O ring ) and gain only a marginally small gain on the resistance.

I've come to the conclusion is that for what we pay for the motors, a bit of resistance on the very very few occasions I've had to peddle home and the replacement of an engine occasionally is the compromise over buying a Bosch and the likes and have my speed limited to 25kph.

I agree with all this and will live with it. With the motor off, on flat sealed roads the drag is not so bad. But once you hit gravel, a head wind or an incline (or all of them!) everything is against you.

I'm also sometimes towing a loaded trailer. I used to be able to manage flats just fine before fitting the motor, hills were a challenge but do-able. Now with the motor off hills are impossible, and even on flat gravel it's a real slog to get anywhere so I need to ensure I'll never run out of battery. Of course, it's highly likely that I've become weaker since fitting the motor too.

Speaking of this seal, does anyone have one spare, I could build a complete motor out of bits, but I cannot buy that seal.

Alternatively a V-ring seal could be an good option if there something available to fit, the factory item is 80mm ID x 86mm OD.

 

[Waynemarlow]

Gosh I had forgotten about those seals

Looked up my bearing supplier and low and behold

https://simplybearings.co.uk/shop/Seals-V-Ring-Seals-NITRILE-V-Rings/c19_4521_4778/index.html

 

[Waynemarlow]

I'm also sometimes towing a loaded trailer. I used to be able to manage flats just fine before fitting the motor, hills were a challenge but do-able. Now with the motor off hills are impossible, and even on flat gravel it's a real slog to get anywhere so I need to ensure I'll never run out of battery. Of course, it's highly likely that I've become weaker since fitting the motor too.

But have you compared the drag compared to say the early Bosch and Shimano units ? The Bafang BBS02 I had was definitely worse, the Bosch unit I rode was similar to worse, but then if you go fitting lots of gears and sprag clutches you can't expect any thing less.

On mine using the V20 software I have the first level set at 40 - 50 W which is what I reckon about the losses of the motor and gears to make my bike equal to a non motor fitted bike.

 

[vreppeto]

I have been looking at lubricants for the blue gear. The molykote em-50L appears to be a PAO lubricant with lithium thickeners and a molybdenum additive. It seems to be a unique blend. Here is a decent article on lubricant selection. https://www.ecllube.com/resources-for-engineers/tutorials/ECL_Choosing%20a%20Grease.pdf

Here is a database on the molykote products https://www.lubricantspecialty.com/our-solutions/by-chemistry/polyalphaolefin-pao

Personally I think any red lithium high temp grease would work just as well as long as it does not eat the plastic. The valvoline synthetic high pressure grease is a lithium base with moly additive and valvoline says it is safe for plastics and rubber including cv boots and tie rod ends. https://sharena21.springcm.com/Public/Document/18452/69467451-fe75-e711-9c10-ac162d889bd3/47eff690-0bbd-e711-9c12-ac162d889bd1

Another reasonable choice is LOCTITE® viperlube LB 8034™ It is a PAO base with lithium thickener and a calcium something additive. It is also safe for plastic and rubber.

https://bestsyntheticoilguide.com/synthetic/best-synthetic-grease/
https://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/29113/base-oil-groups#:~:text=Group%20III,(higher%20pressure%20and%20heat).

EP properties - means extreme pressure.

I am tired of diggin around on the internet now. Thus endeth the lip jacking.

 

[famichiki]

But have you compared the drag compared to say the early Bosch and Shimano units ? The Bafang BBS02 I had was definitely worse, the Bosch unit I rode was similar to worse, but then if you go fitting lots of gears and sprag clutches you can't expect any thing less.

On mine using the V20 software I have the first level set at 40 - 50 W which is what I reckon about the losses of the motor and gears to make my bike equal to a non motor fitted bike.

It's been a couple of years since I last rode a Bosch system, which was before I had the TSDZ2, so it's hard to make a comparison but I don't recall it being difficult with the power off. However that was in ideal circumstances and it may well be a similar experience otherwise.

I have some ideas along the lines of your low power suggestion and when I get the motor back together again will have a look at the firmware again. Barring some catastrophic failure I think this may be the best solution.

SKF has a good list of their V-rings with full specs but they may end up being too thick at the size needed. If I understand correctly, for best protection against ingress they also recommend placing the seal on the outside.
http://www.bearing.net.au/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/SKF_206-V-Ring-Seals-publication-pages-V5.pdf

 

[Waynemarlow]

Be careful on comparing drag with the motor off. The largest " human feel " difference to me is that most commercial motors are geared so that the outer chain ring is a 30T where as the TSDZ2 is a 42T. The commercial bikes are geared to 25 - 35 kmh max ( in the EU ) and thus can run the small gear and thus have a reasonably low speed hill climbing gear. Even in the largest gear at the back, we are still driving it from a 42T cog which without an engine you would never do. To compare then you need to look at a like for like gearing ratio.

On mine I run a 104BCD convertor and run a 36T cog as most of my riding is off road, but its very noticeable that you have to be 3 - 5 gears down as soon as you loose the motor over my conventional analogue bike, which I have a 30T front gear and exactly the same 44 - 11 rear cassette.

 

[kalleg]

Anyone know if you can buy an offset chainring in Europe. I have standard spider + 104bcd spider. My chainline could use som adjusting, see image here:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/chuyjal30ljgug8/2020-07-27 08.43.49.jpg?dl=0
Haven't been able to find one

 

[famichiki]

Anyone know if you can buy an offset chainring in Europe.

Future-bike sells them or Eco Cycles ships internationally.
http://www.future-bike.it/?s=Corona&post_type=product
https://www.eco-ebike.com/search?q=tsdz2+chain+ring+narrow+wide

 

[kalleg]

Anyone know if you can buy an offset chainring in Europe.

Future-bike sells them or Eco Cycles ships internationally.
http://www.future-bike.it/?s=Corona&post_type=product
https://www.eco-ebike.com/search?q=tsdz2+chain+ring+narrow+wide

Thank you very much!! Much appreciated

 

[Waynemarlow]

The question should be is the chain line actually giving problems, mine is similar and with the addition of a front chain guide ( previous front derailleur ) I'm not having problems.

 

[E-bike lover]

hallo. I am new to this forum and extremely interested in this motor.

I am going to buy it and play with this opensource motor but i have a few questions which i couldn't find the answers:

1.Are the windings diferent between 36v and 48v motor?

2.How does 48v battery works on 36v motor? Will the power exceed 250W? I have seen that if a 48v battery being used on a 36v motor, u could have more speed. Is it 30% more? If i use a 48v battery on 48v motor, the speed will get lower but more torque. What is the maximum speed?
Link about speed & toruqe:

• https://empoweredpeople.co.uk/2020/05/20/experimenting-with-the-tongsheng-tsdz2-mid-drive-system-part-4/

• https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SneQ0sTM1Lk

3.Can i speed up my bike(over 25km/h) while my battery is 48v but the maxium support power in motor is only 250W?

4.There is a bluetooth function on SW102. Is it able to update the firmware via app or website? Or is it still developing?
I know a bit programming in website.
Link from github doesn't mention:https://github.com/OpenSource-EBike-firmware/TSDZ2_wiki/wiki

 

[Waynemarlow]

Mmmm I think you need to read the previous 300 pages, all the answers to your questions have been discussed at length.

 

[E-bike lover]

I have read it already but there are conflict on what they have said between different people. Also the situation is different.I want to limit the motor to only 250w to obey the law but i want higher top speed.

Let me simplify the question: What's the difference between the motor running on 36V 6.94A and 48V 5.2A ?
The one with 36V 6.94A has more torque because of higher current(A)? The one with 48V 5.2A has more speed?

Also if i flash the Opensource firmware and flash back the original one in order to send it back and repair, will i void the warranty?

 

[amberwolf]

I want to limit the motor to only 250w to obey the law but i want higher top speed.

Does the law also limit the top speed to below what you want? If so, why obey the one without obeying the other?

FWIW, you can get higher speed by changing the gearing. Larger sprocket on the cranks or smaller on the wheel. Depending on what you change, it may reduce your torque for startups and lower speeds. (reducing the power will do that too).

Are you willing to pedal, potentially quite hard/alot, to get what you want?

What specific top speed do you already get?

What specific top speed do you want? It takes a certain amount power to overcome air and rolling resistances, so if your desired top speed is above what you are left with after reducing power, it might not reach that speed (unless you can provide enough extra power by pedalling to compensate.

What terrain/etc do you have? If it's hilly, then limitng the power means it may not be able to climb the hills.

Do you have any headwinds? If there are headwinds, it takes more power to go the same speed against them, so you'll have a lower top speed with less available power.

 

[famichiki]

The TSDZ2 seal is actually shaped like a double seal as in it has two sharp faces to seal up against the plastic cover, by its shape the seal should rotate within the cover rather than the bearing face rotating in the seal. I'm not sure which way it was designed to be as its pretty normal for the seal to be fixed in the cover, mmmm.

Whatever an O ring would be a less seal than the factory one but if needs must. Anyone got a spare ?

Quad rings or X-rings look like a good low friction replacement too, I haven't investigated sizes yet.