New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

[Elinx]

......

I would suspect a faulty torque sensor given the TE reading of zero, but I have not been able to find any others on this forum who reported the same. Is it possible to test the torque sensor with a multimeter? (Edit: related)

Elinx has replied on my other wrong post to try OSF to help isolate between the different sensors that could be preventing pedal assist from working. I will consider that option, though to be honest andrea_104kg's experience above is not confidence inspiring ....

I can imagine that you are a bit hesitant to install OSF on a faulty tsdz2.
So the best thing you could do is to try to find the faulty sensor first.

As you can see it is not always easy, but possible to measure torque and pas sensor a with just a multimeter
For torque you can measure the current (between 14mA and 22mA) (as in the given pedelec link)
PAS sensor you can measure with a multimeter by measuring Voltage on the outputs (yellow/blue)
Most Tsdz2 problems are with a too small distance of the speed sensor and spoke magnet. This distance should mostly wider than you think (about 10mm)

 

[andrea_104kg]

Unfortunately it is practically impossible to test the pas with the ECU mounted on the engine. If it is disassembled then it is no longer possible to use the magnets of the torsometer. At this point I think it is also useless, since the second ECU is new, it hasn't even traveled 1 km, and has the same defect as the first. the defect is not in the sensor but it is not clear what it could be. I am afraid that I will have to give up the tsdz2 and switch to the bafang or other engine. I don't like buying another one and having the same problems. thanks anyway for the support

 

[Elinx]

..... the second ECU is new, it hasn't even traveled 1 km, and has the same defect as the first. the defect is not in the sensor but it is not clear what it could be....

The only thing you know for sure is that the tsdz2 isn't working with both torque and ECU boards.
If it is the same defect you can't know for sure.
Because with the second there are no PAS values with OSF.
Something you hadn't tried with the first ECU but now with a multimeter you see the PAS sensor does work,
You can't do with the second ECU, because it is build in, so the obeservations are not equal on both.

Switching to another brand like Bafang is possible and maybe the best way if you have lost confidence, but Tsdz2 is the only engine you can service with a reasonable price for the parts and ofcourse torque sensor and OSF.

 

[sysrq]

Anyway seems he has a lot of different greases and I’m more confused as to what I need now?
any more advice on my first service Would be much appreciated. Things to check and worth replacing?

I wouldn't touch the sprag clutch or roller clutch inside the blue gear in case they start slipping. But since you are in the UK, the easiest solution is to order a small container of Molycote PG-75 from Performance Line Bearings and use that for everything else as it's safe for plastic gears.
https://www.performancelinebearings.com/product/gear-grease-for-ebike-motors/

The Molykote pg-75 ordered from performancelinebearings seems to have some sort of grainy consistency which reminds me of a vaseline. Hope it's not counterfeit.

 

[andrea_104kg]

Switching to another brand like Bafang is possible and maybe the best way if you have lost confidence, but Tsdz2 is the only engine you can service with a reasonable price for the parts and ofcourse torque sensor and OSF.

This it's the problem a new motor IMPOSSIBLE to service. It's a very very big problem for me.
I can't buy another one without any guarantee that it will work. Nor is it fair that to have one that works, you have to buy 2, assuming that the next one works, which I am not at all sure about right now.
The second control unit at a distance of less than a km, then after the flash it is no longer gone. How likely is it that it broke during the flash phase? i think zero ...considering that walk assist and throttle work ..

 

[andrea_104kg]

P.S. Every post mentioning the hidden menu says hold info+power 10 seconds, but that does not work on mine. Mine requires first to press info once, then hold info+power 3 seconds, then info 3 times. I figured this out by dumb luck after being very frustrated using the wrong instructions. Just wanted to point that out in case it helps anyone else in the future.

it's the same for me, impossible to enter in the hidden menu with standard procedure.

 

[casainho]

Switching to another brand like Bafang is possible and maybe the best way if you have lost confidence, but Tsdz2 is the only engine you can service with a reasonable price for the parts and ofcourse torque sensor and OSF.

This it's the problem a new motor IMPOSSIBLE to service. It's a very very big problem for me.
I can't buy another one without any guarantee that it will work. Nor is it fair that to have one that works, you have to buy 2, assuming that the next one works, which I am not at all sure about right now.
The second control unit at a distance of less than a km, then after the flash it is no longer gone. How likely is it that it broke during the flash phase? i think zero ...considering that walk assist and throttle work ..

If this cheap option does not work to you, then I would move to next one with more guarantee and sure more expensive, like buying a new bicycle with integrated motor on a local bike shop, where you can have assistance at that same shop.

 

[blowhole]

So the best thing you could do is to try to find the faulty sensor first.

Doesn't the TE/TE1=0 reading already point to torque sensor? How can the reading be affected by any other sensor?

As you can see it is not always easy, but possible to measure torque and pas sensor a with just a multimeter
For torque you can measure the current (between 14mA and 22mA) (as in the given pedelec link)
PAS sensor you can measure with a multimeter by measuring Voltage on the outputs (yellow/blue)

Thanks, checking the PAS sensor sounds easy enough. The pedelec link is harder for me to understand. Is the AC current reading taken at the 2-pin wiring harness or directly at the hall sensor on the axle? And I just need to pass a magnet over the hall sensor, nothing needs to actually be spinning?

Most Tsdz2 problems are with a too small distance of the speed sensor and spoke magnet. This distance should mostly wider than you think (about 10mm)

I measured mine at 12mm, can try experimenting closer to 10mm. Still unclear how this can also affect TE/TE1.

Your help is much appreciated. Thanks.

 

[andrea_104kg]

Switching to another brand like Bafang is possible and maybe the best way if you have lost confidence, but Tsdz2 is the only engine you can service with a reasonable price for the parts and ofcourse torque sensor and OSF.

This it's the problem a new motor IMPOSSIBLE to service. It's a very very big problem for me.
I can't buy another one without any guarantee that it will work. Nor is it fair that to have one that works, you have to buy 2, assuming that the next one works, which I am not at all sure about right now.
The second control unit at a distance of less than a km, then after the flash it is no longer gone. How likely is it that it broke during the flash phase? i think zero ...considering that walk assist and throttle work ..

If this cheap option does not work to you, then I would move to next one with more guarantee and sure more expensive, like buying a new bicycle with integrated motor on a local bike shop, where you can have assistance at that same shop.

Never said this. However, I would like to point out that an engine that does not work when new, after replacing the control unit and torsometer, is not a cheap motor, it is a very expensive engine. Indeed, not even an engine is an expensive ornament.

 

[gfmoore]

I think Casainho may have meant "cheaper" option. English is not his first language and it isn't easy to get these endings right.

He does very well though. Obrigado. :wink:

 

[casainho]

Switching to another brand like Bafang is possible and maybe the best way if you have lost confidence, but Tsdz2 is the only engine you can service with a reasonable price for the parts and ofcourse torque sensor and OSF.

This it's the problem a new motor IMPOSSIBLE to service. It's a very very big problem for me.
I can't buy another one without any guarantee that it will work. Nor is it fair that to have one that works, you have to buy 2, assuming that the next one works, which I am not at all sure about right now.
The second control unit at a distance of less than a km, then after the flash it is no longer gone. How likely is it that it broke during the flash phase? i think zero ...considering that walk assist and throttle work ..

If this cheap option does not work to you, then I would move to next one with more guarantee and sure more expensive, like buying a new bicycle with integrated motor on a local bike shop, where you can have assistance at that same shop.

Never said this. However, I would like to point out that an engine that does not work when new, after replacing the control unit and torsometer, is not a chip motor, it is a very expensive engine. Indeed, not even an engine is an expensive ornament.

This motor is for DIY, and there is a lot of risk involved - that is the risk to go for a cheaper option. To install this motor, one needs good technical knowledge / experience, in electronics and mechanics, as also to have some tools like a lab power supply or some sort of electric protection and ideally an oscilloscope. And also have the time to read the many technical notes. It is easy to do something wrong on the install process, even for the very experienced ones. And is possible to burn some part of electronics only, where some parts work and we expect the others to also work, but they will simple not work anymore - it can be hard to debug.

Yes, it can be expensive if you do something wrong and are out of luck. If like me you have more than one EBikes with TSDZ2, like I have 4 family EBikes, then it gets even more cheaper on the savings I get comparing to buy 4 expensive EBikes from well know brands.

By the way, I just got new experiences with my new mini cargo bike with TSDZ2, like going to the park a bit far from home, where my son went with the cheap electric scooter that got the battery empty and then I had to carry back him and the electric scooter (70 kgs load!!):


And giving a tour with our 2 months old baby:

 

[andrea_104kg]

I am a poor single and I think you are a very lucky man for your beautiful family, congratulations.
I disagree on the need to be NASA engineers to manage this engine. At this moment I am very angry but it is above all because I do not see a solution to my problem and I am FORCED to abandon this engine.
I can't buy another control unit.
I can't buy another engine.
I can't use the new engine I have.
This makes me very angry. no solution.

 

[lafuente]

Hello,

I come here because I tried to fit an TSDZ2 to my bike. I have make a mistake, I didn't test the motor before mod it :-(

I have a 860C display, one 1T3 cable from Eco Cycles (8 pins version, like the motor). I had put the heatsink on it, thermal paste in it, mount the LM35 as thermal sensor, etc... Bref, all is ready.

I flashed the 860C with latest "emmebrusa" firmware, and the motor controller too. All flash operations are fine and without errors.

My problem is that the display can't find the motor, it's look like there is no communications. After 50s (timeout ?) I have the "Brake Error" message. I tried to reflash "Option Bytes" like advised in the FAQ and as advised per raylo32 (page 352), but without success.

I then tried to reflash standard firmware (from here : https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1eGcBtTj8GrGQ4tDJAECr6ejMrpW2ZqvH?usp=drive_open), and connect only the original display and the motor, without success too :-(

Another mistake I've done is that I didn't save the original controller firmware (48V version), so I rely on what I can find over the net. Maybe it's not the right firmware for my controller too.

At last, I'm currently stuck. I'm from France and it's look like there is no options for me to find a "dealer" that can have a look at the system and repair my fault, or change what need to be changed (if so).

Any help would be welcome.
Thank you,
Manu

P.S. : my installation :

 

[agphil]

Hello,

I come here because I tried to fit an TSDZ2 to my bike. I have make a mistake, I didn't test the motor before mod it :-(

I have a 860C display, one 1T3 cable from Eco Cycles (8 pins version, like the motor). I had put the heatsink on it, thermal paste in it, mount the LM35 as thermal sensor, etc... Bref, all is ready.

...
At last, I'm currently stuck. I'm from France and it's look like there is no options for me to find a "dealer" that can have a look at the system and repair my fault, or change what need to be changed (if so).

Any help would be welcome.
Thank you,
Manu

P.S. : my installation :
IMG_3538.jpg

Can you post some screenshots of what you get on the 860C display?

 

[lafuente]

At boot up I get this :



Then, after 50 seconds I get this one :

 

[lafuente]

I can go in configuration menu pressing "up+down+power" with a long press :





And escape configuration menu to go to main page :

 

[lafuente]

Here the result from controller firmware flash :



After this, if I read the controller again, option byte is 0x20 (as stated in FAQ).

 

[casainho]

At boot up I get this :

1.JPG

Then, after 50 seconds I get this one :

2.jpg

I would say you have TX and RX wires not well connected, and if they are, you can have your display not working on that wires and it is not possible to repair.

 

[andrea_104kg]

This Is my controller. Is It changed something from old?

 

[lafuente]

I would say you have TX and RX wires not well connected, and if they are, you can have your display not working on that wires and it is not possible to repair.

I had the same feeling, but then : how can I had program the 860C ?

Since "Apt-Burn-Tools V1.4" work, so the TX/RX (my brain). Is there something I can "Sniff" on the RS-232 bus ?

Also, when I reflashed the orginal firmware from Eco Cycles, even with my stock VLC5D, I have no communication. The display light up, show an uncharged batterie (it's full in real life), and nothing else.

My 860C display is this one : https://www.pswpower.com/products/-133

What I understand is :
RX from motor goes to TX of display => pin3 of motor 8 pin connector goes to pin2 of the display connector
TX from motor goes to RX of display => pin7 of motor 8 pin connector goes to pin4 of the display connector

I checked the cable and this is at least what I have (Eco Cycle 1T3 cable).

Something I notice : when I try to use 5V of STlink to power the controller MCU during flash, the STlink led fade after a little time (let's say 1 second) and goes off at the end (if this can help).

I'll go to open the motor and remove the LM35 for testing purpose. Anyway, I have a scope that can read RS232 datas. I'll check the COM too.

Any input is welcome.
Thank you

 

[lafuente]

This Is my controller. Is It changed something from old?contr2.jpg

I guess not because your controller was designed on 05-05-2016 :wink:
It look like mine.

 

[lafuente]

This is the cable I've build for display programming :



And it wiring (if labels on USB/RS232 dongle are good) :



If what is described here (elfnino cable) :
https://github.com/OpenSourceEBike/TSDZ2_wiki/wiki/Flash-the-firmware-on-860C-850C-using-bootloader


is right, then I should have RX and TX swapped in my display. In the image he gave, TX from module goes at RX on the green connector.

if this picture is right :

and to enumerate pin number (as in my draft before) :

1. GND
2. TXD
3. P+
4. RXD
5. PL

then with elfnino draft, TX from USB module goes at pin 4 of the cable connector, and RX at pin 2.

In my cable (that work with my display), TX from the module goes to pin 2 of the green connector.
So display RX/TX should be inverted in the display ? Or am I wrong ?

Honestly, I'd like to be sure before cutting my 1T3 cable and swap RX/TX...

 

[Woly]

As a safety feature, the open source controller firmware checks to see if brakes are being applied during startup. If so, the controller just waits until the brakes are released before initializing everything. I would check that this is not what's happening.

 

[lafuente]

I'm sorry about disturbance. Removing the thermal sensor (LM35) was the thing to do...

The display now catch the motor right after power it up. Ouf !

I'll check tomorrow why this happened and let you know if any question.

Thank to anyone who help (and anyone who work hard on this system).
Manu

 

[Elinx]

...Removing the thermal sensor (LM35) was the thing to do.......

:thumb: Glad it is solved now