Qulbix Raptor ebike + frame kit

[Offroader]

Man I had to repost a pic of Offroader's machine to get back on topic. Shit the bed ed! That lady is literally a quarter ton (500# 230Kg) of fun . Okay Offroader, been looking at your photo with the 3.00-17 SR241 and the 26 MTB up front. By eye ball, looks like your ride height is ideal, your fork tube angles look good, so even with the smaller wheel, your bike looks like it should handle well, like it did with the 19. Are your running a 10.5" (270mm) shock on the rear to keep your frame geometry in check? What did you come up with for shock placement on the frame and swingarm?

Rix, the geometry should have stayed the same between the 19" and the 17". I just lowered my 10.5" shock down one notch as seen in the picture below. My swingarm is an older version and doesn't have adjustments there only in the upper shock bracket. I measured the bottom bracket afterwards and it was around 14". I measured the bottom bracket height when I first built the bike with the 19" tire and it was also around 14".

Rix, I think the bike is perfect now. I don't think I can honestly do anything to make it handle better. But who knows, I never figured the 17" would be that much better. I would have never tried the 17" tire if holmes hobbies wasn't delayed getting the 19" rims. A 17" is a no brainer really on the raptor because of the adjustable suspension.

I do wonder if I would like the narrow frame of the raptor 140 better. I don't pedal anymore at all since getting the 17", the extra climbing ability makes pedaling even more useless.

I'm running around 15-17PSI in the rear tire. I think this low PSI makes the biggest difference in handling, especially because it cushions that heavy hub motored rear. I am also happy to know that the big fat low PSI tire probably also takes a lot of stress off the cromotor during hits. I don't think 15-17PSI is low because dirtbikes use around 10PSI. I can probably even go lower than I am at now.

I had it out today for a couple of hours for both off and on road. The words that keep going through my head is "this bike is just out of control" The bike rides both on and off road amazingly smooth, and both at low and fast speeds. I just love the extra acceleration of the 17" tire while driving the bike both on-road and off-road. The bike is ridiculously stable now, I can drive down gravel paths at over 30MPH. I drive up steep hills with thick roots and the rear tire doesn't slip at all.

The biggest thing I love about this bike is how comfortable it is. I didn't even want to come back home after my two hour drive today. It's real nice to be able to ride for hours and not have any groin or ass pain from a bicycle seat. I just can't understand how you guys use those bicycle seats, especially if you're driving offroad and hitting things, especially unexpectedly when you're not standing high enough. Not only is the bicycle seat more comfortable but it allows you to control and handle the bike better.

I've watched people drive my bike and it was hard to make out the seat if you're sitting on it. I'm not sure why everybody is worried about using it. I live in one of the worst places for ebike laws, basically ebikes are banned and you can get fined heavily and bike confiscated, and never have any issues. Cops just don't look twice and I ride past multiple cops a day.

Moved shock one notch down.


Another pic of 26" & 17"

 

[Rix]

I don't think 15-17PSI is low because dirtbikes use around 10PSI. I can probably even go lower than I am at now.

Just remember, dirt bikes also have rim bead locks mounted as well. Without a bead lock you may having your tire slip and cause the valve stem to tear from the tube. This is a big risk especially with creek crossing and low psi. Food for thought. Very nice review with the 17. Glad you like it. They are so much harder to stall out on hill climbs. I notice a difference on the Fighter just switching from the 24MTB to the 18MC which is 1.25" (32mm) smaller diameter and I remember how much harder the Bomber pulled when I went from a 19 to 17. Now that I looked at your pic, I remember you posted it before with the shock placement. I missed it the first time. DOh!!!!

Did you notice a decrease in top speed. I lost about 1.5MPH. Even though the smaller wheel should have equated more than that, I think the loss was minimal because the smaller wheel could spin faster because the mechanical advantage increase.

Rick

 

[Offroader]

I don't think 15-17PSI is low because dirtbikes use around 10PSI. I can probably even go lower than I am at now.

Did you notice a decrease in top speed. I lost about 1.5MPH. Even though the smaller wheel should have equated more than that, I think the loss was minimal because the smaller wheel could spin faster because the mechanical advantage increase.

Rick

Funny you mention that. I also noticed that the loss in top speed seemed to be minimal. I thought I entered in the tire diameter incorrectly as I never measured it accurately.

At full throttle I'm at around 1400 watts on level ground. What's nice is I noticed you can drive the cromotor full throttle constantly and it doesn't get much hotter than 90c. probably would be the same with the 19", I just never checked. What overheats these motors seems to be off-roading and driving on grass.

 

[Merlin]

Offroader, when you go on with your 165er did you ever thought about using a Sine wave controller?
yesterday i setup Regen Brake on my Sabvoton ....thats so unbelievable Braking Power. I setup 90A Phase for Regen Brake
and it brakes near a blocking Rearwheel
...and the best of it....the Regen works to 0 kph. On Street driving it is possible to brake only with Regen.

my happyness goes on =)

 

[Offroader]

Offroader, when you go on with your 165er did you ever thought about using a Sine wave controller?
yesterday i setup Regen Brake on my Sabvoton ....thats so unbelievable Braking Power. I setup 90A Phase for Regen Brake
and it brakes near a blocking Rearwheel
...and the best of it....the Regen works to 0 kph. On Street driving it is possible to brake only with Regen.

my happyness goes on =)

Merlin, Yeah I would buy one of those if I could. But with the current availability of those controllers I'm going to just wait at this point.

I have mixed feelings about the regen. First I heard it doesn't really offer that much charge. The other thing is I don't need any of the charge it would offer because I hardly use all my battery capacity up during any of my rides.

My brakes seem to last a very long time and stop instantly when I need them to. I have very good breaking control. What worries me about regen is that I may lose some of this control.

To basically sum it up, I don't need any of the regenerative charge that it offers and it may hurt or confuse me with the very good and precise breaking I have already.

But who knows, maybe I would like it if I tried it. It would have come in handy when I bent my rear rotor and had to wait for a new one.

 

[Hyena]

Nice one Merlin. As my build progresses I'm only just to wiring up my 'Sabby' this later this week. Pity the regen isn't proportional like on the Kelly's, that would be great as a replacement / heavy supplement for a mechanical rear brake. Strong regen is nice but when you only get an on or off option I would think nearly being thrown over the bars every time you hit the button would actually be less than ideal...

Offroader, the returns from regen braking are trivial, it's all about slowing down without riding your brakes. It's handy for long descents of for riding on the street slowing down coming up to corners or intersections or whatever. If you're pushing it on fast singletrack etc there's no substitute for the instant response of big hydraulic brakes.

 

[Mammalian04]

Nice one Merlin. As my build progresses I'm only just to wiring up my 'Sabby' this later this week. Pity the regen isn't proportional like on the Kelly's, that would be great as a replacement / heavy supplement for a mechanical rear brake. Strong regen is nice but when you only get an on or off option I would think nearly being thrown over the bars every time you hit the button would actually be less than ideal...

Offroader, the returns from regen braking are trivial, it's all about slowing down without riding your brakes. It's handy for long descents of for riding on the street slowing down coming up to corners or intersections or whatever. If you're pushing it on fast singletrack etc there's no substitute for the instant response of big hydraulic brakes.

I think I am going to skip the regen on my bike initially. If/when Adaptto comes out with their throttle with variable regen integrated, I will switch over. The idea of JBWelding a reed switch to my brakes doesn't sound that appealing.

However, I will be using the Magura brake switch right off the bat to kill power to the motor when the brakes are hit (this would seem useful in a panic stop when you may not have your wrist all the way off the throttle). HOPEFULLY, the Adaptto has a ramp up feature on the throttle that won't just dump the power back in when you take your fingers off the brake. I could see that going back for me.

 

[Hyena]

While I won't deter anyone from using ebrake levers as a safety cut off, you'd have to be a real noob to really need them on a regular basis. Once you've ridden the bike once or twice it should all become automatic. It's primarily when people are test riding and panic that they're really of use IMO.
Though I guess if you're the sort of person who drives their car through a wall because you accidently pressed on the accelerator instead of the brake then they're probably a good idea :lol:

Merlin I meant to ask before, are you using a CA ? If so are you using a big external shunt ?

 

[Merlin]

i get back from 5 to 15% Regen. Its up to 10km more Range for me. I dont know what kind of Brakes you all have, but my bike is now 59Kg heavy and after riding with some fun, i can hear my brakes "ticking" ....its the same sound that you can hear when a motorcycle exhaust cools down. these 4 Piston brakes are for downhill massacre yes, but a 150kg bike slowing down brings alot of heat in here. so iam really happy with the new regen.

yep when it was not a on/off Regen it would be the best. but for me it is okay. it is not the part or function to buy a sabvoton, but when you have one, iam sure you will like the regen stopping to 0 kph
since the regen amps are programable you dont need to push 100 phase amps for the feeling you have thrown an anchor. i think nanoha drives all the time with just 30a of regen.
...for me?....i like that anchor feeling

Hyena, iam using 2 Original Shunts just parallel. (80a continue, 200a short) (with a cycle analyst)
the shunt has 3 wires.
yellow,green,black.
-yellow to yellow(hallsensor)
-green to grey from controller (Throttle)
-black to black from controller (Throttle)
the red wire from controller is not needed anymore.

 

[marcn]

While I won't deter anyone from using ebrake levers as a safety cut off, you'd have to be a real noob to really need them on a regular basis. Once you've ridden the bike once or twice it should all become automatic. It's primarily when people are test riding and panic that they're really of use IMO.
Though I guess if you're the sort of person who drives their car through a wall because you accidently pressed on the accelerator instead of the brake then they're probably a good idea :lol:

Merlin I meant to ask before, are you using a CA ? If so are you using a big external shunt ?

Or of course if you're using PAS through a torque sensor or cadence sensor I'd say they're great to have. On technical trails where I don't depend on throttle and mostly use PAS, they're a real life saver from going off the side.

 

[Mammalian04]

Though I guess if you're the sort of person who drives their car through a wall because you accidently pressed on the accelerator instead of the brake then they're probably a good idea :lol:

Jay, I only did that twice. Do you have to keep bringing it up?!? :lol:

Anyone have a suggestion on quality 3 position switch?

...or better yet, a quality multi-function switch set (e.g. 3 positon + light switch + regen button, etc?)... I know I just said I would likely wait for the Adaptto throttle but I forgot about the need for power settings. I don't throw new riders off or risk too much power/speed with by kid on board (also another reason wanting the e-brake safety cutoff "just in case" something goes crazy with the controller/motor).

 

[Hyena]

Or of course if you're using PAS through a torque sensor or cadence sensor I'd say they're great to have. On technical trails where I don't depend on throttle and mostly use PAS, they're a real life saver from going off the side.

Yeah that's true, but PAS and the like have no place on a powerful bike IMO. Atleast not without being able to be disabled or the power severely limited. It's the quickest way to throw yourself under a bus or off a cliff as stated. That said with the CA3 calling the shots I'm sure you could have it more well mannered.

Re: 3 speed switch, I used a motorcycle headlight/indicator/horn cluster on my stealth and have ordered another one to put on my raptor. Metal construction and the switches have a nice tactile feel to them too. Of course you need to buzz out the wiring to get the right connections then make up some custom looms/splicing but if you've come this far with a group up ebike build that shouldn't defeat you. There's a few different types on ebay and the cheaper ones are cheaper in construction though still better than the plasticy ones. The cheaper ones also only have one slider switch for the headlights, ie main beam or high beam. The one I prefer has off-on-highbeam which I wired up to the 3 speed modes. This time around I will wire up the lights as intended for motorbike use - off, low beam and high beam (additional leds). Tail lights and forward "daytime running lights" will come on automatically when the bike is powered on.

This is the one I just bought for mine.
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/251572626305?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1497.l2649

 

[Mammalian04]

Re: 3 speed switch, I used a motorcycle headlight/indicator/horn cluster on my stealth and have ordered another one to put on my raptor. Metal construction and the switches have a nice tactile feel to them too. Of course you need to buzz out the wiring to get the right connections then make up some custom looms/splicing but if you've come this far with a group up ebike build that shouldn't defeat you. There's a few different types on ebay and the cheaper ones are cheaper in construction though still better than the plasticy ones. The cheaper ones also only have one slider switch for the headlights, ie main beam or high beam. The one I prefer has off-on-highbeam which I wired up to the 3 speed modes. This time around I will wire up the lights as intended for motorbike use - off, low beam and high beam (additional leds). Tail lights and forward "daytime running lights" will come on automatically when the bike is powered on.

This is the one I just bought for mine.
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/251572626305?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1497.l2649

Nice Jay. I bet the momentary "starter" button would make a good regen brake switch if you could get it in a good spot for your thumb.

 

[Hyena]

Exactly, slid up against the rear brake it's perfectly positioned to use with your thumb. After thinking about it more I'm actually not going to use the hydraulic regen switches now, strong regen is nice but sometimes you only want to brake a little with the front or rear and I can do without the unpredictability.

 

[Merlin]

Yeah that's true, but PAS and the like have no place on a powerful bike IMO. Atleast not without being able to be disabled or the power severely limited. It's the quickest way to throw yourself under a bus or off a cliff as stated. That said with the CA3 calling the shots I'm sure you could have it more well mannered.

sounds like you have missed a really cool feature from the ca

you can setup the pas for all three modes (on/off)
you can setup maybe 0-1000w for pas and 5kw for the throttle
you can use a poti (see on my pic above the keyswitch) to regulate the power of pas.
means you can pedal your monster with 150w like a normal bike with 12kg. But when you want, open the Throttle and ride like you want.

i have setup this for mode 1+2
and mode 3 is PAS off and the Poti regulate the Throttle Power from 0-12kw.

very handy.

 

[Offroader]

Just an update on the 17" tire.

I've been doing a lot of riding lately. I've also learned the handling better with the 17" tire.

The 17x3.00 with 15PSI makes the bike much more amazing. The extra torque and extra sticky tire allows you to do so much more with the bike. If you're going to off-road this bike it is a must have to get the full capabilities from the raptor.

I feel like my riding skills have doubled because of this tire and running low PSI.

One other nice thing is I've not been riding any stairs since I overheated my last cromotor and possibly bent something. With the 19" I had to come at the stairs with speed to make sure I was able to ride up the stairs, this caused the rear tire to hit hard.
I've been wanting to climb stairs again so decided I would do it in a way that doesn't hurt the motor. With the 17", I can stop right before the stairs and throttle it up the stairs nice and slowly. The smaller stickier tire climbs stairs like you were going up a steep hill.

 

[Rodney64]

Just an update on the 17" tire.

I've been doing a lot of riding lately. I've also learned the handling better with the 17" tire.

The 17x3.00 with 15PSI makes the bike much more amazing. The extra torque and extra sticky tire allows you to do so much more with the bike. If you're going to off-road this bike it is a must have to get the full capabilities from the raptor.

I feel like my riding skills have doubled because of this tire and running low PSI.

One other nice thing is I've not been riding any stairs since I overheated my last cromotor and possibly bent something. With the 19" I had to come at the stairs with speed to make sure I was able to ride up the stairs, this caused the rear tire to hit hard.
I've been wanting to climb stairs again so decided I would do it in a way that doesn't hurt the motor. With the 17", I can stop right before the stairs and throttle it up the stairs nice and slowly. The smaller stickier tire climbs stairs like you were going up a steep hill.

I'm currently running 17/2.75 tyres with my cromotor and I'm a lot more confident. Currently I'm running 18s lipo with a 24 fet 80'amp controller. When I get my 140 frame I'll be running 17'S front and back with a 4065 motor and a 60 amp controller. Planning on running 21s 29e cells.

 

[Hyena]

sounds like you have missed a really cool feature from the ca

Yes I must admit the last time I used it it was direct through the controller. The controlability, esp with the V3 is great

Offroader, did you get a different style or compound of tyre in the smaller 17" rim or does it just feel stickier ?

 

[Offroader]

I'm currently running 17/2.75 tyres with my cromotor and I'm a lot more confident. Currently I'm running 18s lipo with a 24 fet 80'amp controller. When I get my 140 frame I'll be running 17'S front and back with a 4065 motor and a 60 amp controller. Planning on running 21s 29e cells.

Rodney, is that a shinko 241? You have to use the 3.00" tire as it has much deeper knobs and is much bigger. The 2.75" is tiny with small knobs compared to the 3.00".

Offroader, did you get a different style or compound of tyre in the smaller 17" rim or does it just feel stickier ?

Hyena, nope same brand 241 tire but because of the larger knobs and low air pressure of 15PSI on a fatter tire it must flatten out and apply more tread to the ground. The knobs do feel softer but that is probably because they are longer.

The bike is so much more stable. I used to worry about losing traction all the time, now I worry a lot less. This gives me a lot more confidence and makes me a better rider. But its not because of fake confidence, the tire doesn't slip at all. I remember always worrying about getting caught in those skinny ruts that run along the path, now if my tire falls into it you barely even feel it. I actually purposely ride in them now.

The other advantage I like is the smaller 17" allows you to have lots more torque when going slower, like if you want to jump the bike off of something or take weight off the front to hop over things. I guess you can always use more amps to get more power with the larger tires. For my comparison I didn't change the voltage/amps so the bike has a lot more torque and makes maneuvering much easier. I'm pushing around 4300 watts at 72 volts.

I'm sure there are other decent tires out there, although a lot heavier and rix has said he tried a lot of tires. Key is to probably get deep knobs and run low PSI. I'm just really comparing it to the 19x2.75 shinko 241 I was running with higher PSI. Your 19" tire may also be good if you can run low PSI on it.

I'm not sure the size of your 19" tire but it looks skinny compared to my 3" tire. You may not be able to run that low PSI on it.

I would recommend that everyone try out the 17x3.00 shinko 241 eventually on their raptor. Maybe after you get some riding experience with the raptor you can try it out and review it.

 

[Mammalian04]

I would recommend that everyone try out the 17x3.00 shinko 241 eventually on their raptor.

Sheesh! I give in! :wink: Just ordered up a SR241 3.00-17 just now for Motorcycle Superstore.

I still need to find a 165mm rear hub for the 19" that has been orphaned in favor of the 17". Since the 19" with rear hub will now be used for the mid-drive, I presume I can just gear it down with sprockets and the 19" won't matter (I know it won't be super knobby and squishy like you say the 3.00x17 is).

 

[Offroader]

I would recommend that everyone try out the 17x3.00 shinko 241 eventually on their raptor.

Sheesh! I give in! :wink: Just ordered up a SR241 3.00-17 just now for Motorcycle Superstore.

I still need to find a 165mm rear hub for the 19" that has been orphaned in favor of the 17". Since the 19" with rear hub will now be used for the mid-drive, I presume I can just gear it down with sprockets and the 19" won't matter (I know it won't be super knobby and squishy like you say the 3.00x17 is).

It's a good choice, you'll soon realize that when you see how much bigger it is than your 19x2.75. What 17" rim are you going to use? I recommend the Holmes hobbies 17x1.6. I'm actually thinking about buying a spare of these rims because once they sell out he may not custom make more of them and the spoke angles are perfect.

Are you running a 10.5" shock?

Mammalian04, I'm getting custom 9/10 gauge spokes made at Buchanan right now. If you wait I'll let you know how they work out with the size and the cromotor holes and I recommend you buy them as I've already broke the 12 gauage and bent my new $100 dollar rim because of it. The 11/12 gauge may work if you don't beat the bike that hard, I've broken plenty of 11/12 gauge spokes on my 19" rim. If you're going to beat the bike hard like I do then I'd get the 9/10 gauge spokes and wouldn't mess around with anything less.

 

[Mammalian04]

I would recommend that everyone try out the 17x3.00 shinko 241 eventually on their raptor.

Sheesh! I give in! :wink: Just ordered up a SR241 3.00-17 just now for Motorcycle Superstore.

I still need to find a 165mm rear hub for the 19" that has been orphaned in favor of the 17". Since the 19" with rear hub will now be used for the mid-drive, I presume I can just gear it down with sprockets and the 19" won't matter (I know it won't be super knobby and squishy like you say the 3.00x17 is).

It's a good choice, you'll soon realize that when you see how much bigger it is than your 19x2.75. What 17" rim are you going to use? I recommend the Holmes hobbies 17x1.6. I'm actually thinking about buying a spare of these rims because once they sell out he may not custom make more of them and the spoke angles are perfect.

Are you running a 10.5" shock?

Mammalian04, I'm getting custom 9/10 gauge spokes made at Buchanan right now. If you wait I'll let you know how they work out with the size and the cromotor holes and I recommend you buy them as I've already broke the 12 gauage and bent my new $100 dollar rim because of it. The 11/12 gauge may work if you don't beat the bike that hard, I've broken plenty of 11/12 gauge spokes on my 19" rim. If you're going to beat the bike hard like I do then I'd get the 9/10 gauge spokes and wouldn't mess around with anything less.

Good call on the extra rim. I may do that.

Yes, I will be running the 10.5x3.5.

Definitely interested in your 9/10 Guage spoke dimensions. I will get a few extra 11/12 spokes for emergencies from John but if I start breaking them, I'll go back to my original plan for thicker Buchanans.

 

[Rix]

Just an update on the 17" tire.

I've been doing a lot of riding lately. I've also learned the handling better with the 17" tire.

The 17x3.00 with 15PSI makes the bike much more amazing. The extra torque and extra sticky tire allows you to do so much more with the bike. If you're going to off-road this bike it is a must have to get the full capabilities from the raptor.

I feel like my riding skills have doubled because of this tire and running low PSI.

One other nice thing is I've not been riding any stairs since I overheated my last cromotor and possibly bent something. With the 19" I had to come at the stairs with speed to make sure I was able to ride up the stairs, this caused the rear tire to hit hard.
I've been wanting to climb stairs again so decided I would do it in a way that doesn't hurt the motor. With the 17", I can stop right before the stairs and throttle it up the stairs nice and slowly. The smaller stickier tire climbs stairs like you were going up a steep hill.

It seemed like the knobbie may have been softer on the 3.00-17 over the 2.75-19. How I guaged the comparison was simple, thumb and pointer finger pinching two knobs together. The 3.00-17 seemed to touch easier than the 2.75-19, suggesting the 17 Sr241 was softer. Try that and tell me what you think.

Rick

 

[Mammalian04]

...thumb and pointer finger pinching two knobs together...... Try that and tell me what you think.

Rick

Bad advice Rick... tried it and it did not go well. She sent me to the doghouse for a week.

 

[zombiess]

yep when it was not a on/off Regen it would be the best. but for me it is okay. it is not the part or function to buy a sabvoton, but when you have one, iam sure you will like the regen stopping to 0 kph
since the regen amps are programable you dont need to push 100 phase amps for the feeling you have thrown an anchor. i think nanoha drives all the time with just 30a of regen.
...for me?....i like that anchor feeling

I've been working with Sabvoton to add features to their controllers. I had them implement a variable regen + integrate a 10k thermistor motor sensor. I should be testing the variable regen feature this weekend.

I like the way their normal regen braking works to 0mph. With hard acceleration testing (about the only thing I do with controllers lately) I can recover > 15%