Strong freewheeling crankset

[skyungjae]

That looks great - good luck fitting it all up.
Did you get the whole set so you will be trying their freewheel too?

Edit - just looked at the prices - $98 looks like the 44T ISIS kit?

If all goes well for you I suspect cyclone will get an order from me after this weekend.
It looks like the most complete / straightforward solution to the GNG butter cranks for those of us without a lathe and other metalworking talents!

In hindsight, I wish I had ordered the freewheeling chain ring set up with it. I could use a spare Dicta freewheel, and it would be nice having two chain rings up front for torque and speed. Also, an additional $30 to my $98 shipped wouldn't have hurt that much. Well, I will have to explore that option on future (friend's) builds.

Anyhow, my White Industries ENO should come tomorrow along with my new pedals. I want to paint the crank arms black, so I probably won't be doing my typical late night install/fiddling.

If this all works out, it might be a great option to order the GNG kit without the BB and freewheeling chain ring set and just order the ISIS one from Cyclone. It doesn't address the issue of no support bearing though.

 

[skyungjae]

..some progress..
PICTURES OF YOUR FREEWHEEL SET UP

After viewing these pictures, I wish I had kept my chain ring adapter. It looks like you have a lot more freedom regarding chain line to the jackshaft freewheel.

 

[full-throttle]

Courtesy of Kepler's excellent machining skills

 

[boostjuice]

Nice. Did he make you the required outer bearing housing as well?

 

[full-throttle]

For the outer housing I'm going to make a plate similar to the chainring adapter
Both plates will be coupled

That will make it easy to swap between different sprockets in the future

 

[skyungjae]

Cyclone 140mm ISIS BB and freewheel crank passed today's trial by fire with flying colors. 15 miles, about half single track, extreme downhills, sizable jumps (not off ramps). ZERO PROBLEMS!!!

I'm curious how the support bearing turns out.

 

[t0me]

Having had a second freewheel die in my crankset today (first lasted a week or so, second only a couple of days) and having stripped the thread on my crank arm too, I checked out these Cyclone ones figuring they'd be a good fix for both problems. $98 I can handle, adding another $98 for shipping though... a bit rich! I've emailed them, hoping they'll come back with a better offer, or at least tell me that for that price they'll be here in a couple of days (to Australia). Planning to get the 444432 140mm set (having a 32 instead of a 38 should mean I can still add pedal power up past 30km/hr).

I'm loving my GNG kit so far, but I reckon I'd love it more if I could get a few days running without something breaking.

Where's this support bearing needed?

 

[Miles]

Where's this support bearing needed?

http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=698717#p698717

http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=716674#p716674

 

[recumpence]

Hey Guys,

Just wanted to let you know I am about 1/2 way through the design process of a 130mm bcd double bearing fw system.

This will be a component of my new crank drive system. But it will also be available separately.

Matt

 

[t0me]

Ahhh thanks Miles. So that wouldn't be needed if purchasing that Cyclone BB/Crank set if using their freewheeling chainrings or the original GNG ones.

 

[skyungjae]

Ahhh thanks Miles. So that wouldn't be needed if purchasing that Cyclone BB/Crank set if using their freewheeling chainrings or the original GNG ones.

Though I didn't get the Cyclone chain rings, I don't think there is a support bearing system. There might be a way to retrofit one if using the same White ENO like the ones in this thread.

 

[Miles]

So that wouldn't be needed if purchasing that Cyclone BB/Crank set if using their freewheeling chainrings or the original GNG ones.

The GNG crankset has a support bearing integrated into it. It's a loose fit on the crank axle. The original Cyclone crankset has no support bearing (it has the usual double-race freewheel).

 

[Tinto]

Cyclone 140mm ISIS BB and freewheel crank passed today's trial by fire with flying colors. 15 miles, about half single track, extreme downhills, sizable jumps (not off ramps). ZERO PROBLEMS!!!

Great news! Thanks for the update.

Having had a second freewheel die in my crankset today (first lasted a week or so, second only a couple of days) and having stripped the thread on my crank arm too, I checked out these Cyclone ones figuring they'd be a good fix for both problems. $98 I can handle, adding another $98 for shipping though... a bit rich! I've emailed them, hoping they'll come back with a better offer, or at least tell me that for that price they'll be here in a couple of days (to Australia). Planning to get the 444432 140mm set (having a 32 instead of a 38 should mean I can still add pedal power up past 30km/hr).

I also asked them about that - they offered me $160 shipped.
Where are you in Aus? If it is Perth WA we could combine shipping if you're ready to buy this week.

 

[t0me]

Missed by " " that much
They offered it to me for $156 total and I ordered it straight away.
More's the pity cos I'm in Gosnells.

 

[AFT]

In response to Chalo and Boostjuice we have some real world feedback on the ACS freewheels:

"Chalo wrote:The only freewheel whose bearing is designed to spin with a load on it is the White Industries ENO, and its single bearing is not adequate by itself. (Conventional freewheels have two bearings, which are inadequate for other reasons.)


Please elaborate here. I'd like to know why my long standing success in using an ACS crossfire in freewheel crank duty is so unexpected in your mind.

WI ENO sealed cartridge bearing = deep groove radial bearing, soley designed for radial loading, sealed for longer service life. 1 unit is no good for angular/axial loading. Most people reading this thread understand this.

ACS crossfire bearings = just like the vast majority of conventional economical freewheels, they feature an unsealed dual-opposed angular-contact pair characteristically able to resist loading from all angles (although primarily radial) just like non-cartridge bearing wheel hubs. Smaller bearing balls than the ENO but riding on quite smoothly forged case hardened races. Continuing to perform well in duty for me after >1000km of service with off-centre planes of chain force loaded on the freewheel placing significant angular loading. 3 pawl synchronous engagement and much tighter tolerance in lateral preload than most 'cheapie' freewheels such as dicta, shimano, ACS claws "

From our testing we have done 3000 km's @ 1 kw of mid drive power on our test bike with the ACS crossfire and we have not had any failures, testing until failure continues with this freewheel.

We also have done 5000 kms @ 1kw mid drive, more recently with the EXCESS PRO freewheel, and this too is operating perfectly fine and no we have not had any issues at all and testing continues till failure.

Whereas we have had several failures of the DICTA brand freewheels at about 1-2000 km intervals where the teeth points break off. Also we have had failures of CSK 35 sprag clutches at ~1000km range @ 1kw , and they just start slipping constantly.

So we think the ACS crossfire and EXCESS PRO are well suited to mid drive operation, even without a support bearing as boost juice has suggested above with the ACS crossfires.

One thing to note is we do oil our freewheels every 1-2000 kms. which may be a factor in them lasting longer.

Jim

AFT

 

[spinningmagnets]

AFT, thanks for stopping by to post. I like the professional look of your mounting bracket. Chalo works as a bicycle mechanic, so he sees the ACS-Crossfire FWs that are broken. I believe there are many users that oil their FWs and also manage to keep them fairly clean during daily use (such as street commuters, as opposed to off-roaders in splashing mud).

There are many ACS-Crossfire users here that appear to be satisfied with how long they last.

 

[boostjuice]

.....Whereas we have had several failures of the DICTA brand freewheels at about 1-2000 km intervals where the teeth points break off.......

Jim
AFT

Tell me about it....I didn't get more than a few hundred km's out of this one.

 

[t0me]

Meh, 200km's I'd have loved! I got 9km's out of one!

 

[skyungjae]

Can y'all post pictures if the complete Cyclone set up once you get them?

I'm very curious what their chain ring set up looks like. I kinda regret not getting the whole package.

 

[t0me]

will do

 

[Chalo]

"Chalo wrote:The only freewheel whose bearing is designed to spin with a load on it is the White Industries ENO, and its single bearing is not adequate by itself. (Conventional freewheels have two bearings, which are inadequate for other reasons.)

Please elaborate here. I'd like to know why my long standing success in using an ACS crossfire in freewheel crank duty is so unexpected in your mind.
[...]
Continuing to perform well in duty for me after >1000km of service with off-centre planes of chain force loaded on the freewheel placing significant angular loading.

1000km is "long standing success" to you? That was two weeks' pedal-powered riding in my early 20s.

The problem with ACS, Dicta, Shimano, Pheasant and other such freewheels is not off-angle loading, but the fact that their sloppy bearings are only designed to rotate when there is no tension on the chain. That's why they're not easily adjustable for bearing preload like hubs or headsets. They don't have to be, because they are not intended to turn while loaded.

When you run a loose, sloppy bearing with a load on it, the bearing surfaces deteriorate rapidly. Many traditional single freewheels tend to unscrew and fall apart when spun with a load on them, which is why the DaVinci tandem gizmo comes with a freewheel whose cone has been spot-welded in place.

The more you pedal along with your motor, and the lower the chain tension when your chainrings are freewheeling under motor power, the longer your freewheel will take to self-digest. But I have so far found no reasons to consider ACS Crossfire freewheels to be categorically better than Claws, Shimano, or Dicta. My same customers who chronically broke the old ones, now chronically break Crossfires.

 

[skyungjae]

"Chalo wrote:The only freewheel whose bearing is designed to spin with a load on it is the White Industries ENO, and its single bearing is not adequate by itself. (Conventional freewheels have two bearings, which are inadequate for other reasons.)

Please elaborate here. I'd like to know why my long standing success in using an ACS crossfire in freewheel crank duty is so unexpected in your mind.
[...]
Continuing to perform well in duty for me after >1000km of service with off-centre planes of chain force loaded on the freewheel placing significant angular loading.

1000km is "long standing success" to you? That was two weeks' pedal-powered riding in my early 20s.

The problem with ACS, Dicta, Shimano, Pheasant and other such freewheels is not off-angle loading, but the fact that their sloppy bearings are only designed to rotate when there is no tension on the chain. That's why they're not easily adjustable for bearing preload like hubs or headsets. They don't have to be, because they are not intended to turn while loaded.

When you run a loose, sloppy bearing with a load on it, the bearing surfaces deteriorate rapidly. Many traditional single freewheels tend to unscrew and fall apart when spun with a load on them, which is why the DaVinci tandem gizmo comes with a freewheel whose cone has been spot-welded in place.

The more you pedal along with your motor, and the lower the chain tension when your chainrings are freewheeling under motor power, the longer your freewheel will take to self-digest. But I have so far found no reasons to consider ACS Crossfire freewheels to be categorically better than Claws, Shimano, or Dicta. My same customers who chronically broke the old ones, now chronically break Crossfires.

My Dicta ate itself pretty quick after just a couple of trail rides, but I think that's more due to all that sand and dust getting in there. I'm pretty much pedaling all the time and give it a little throttle when I need the extra juice. No more $20 Dictas for me. :wink:

 

[t0me]

Just a quick note about the ACS Claw on the GNG (gen2) setup. The Claw is a little bigger than the one they supply and so both sides of the housing needed to be opened up a little (like 0.4mm).
Also, the "teeth" on one side of the bearing (the castelation for undoing it) interfere's with the inside of the housing and so I needed to grind those off too.
Presumeably the Crossfire is a better fit (and I'd have got one of those if I could have found it locally).

Didn't make any difference to my current setup as the original right hand crank is so stripped and cross threaded that I couldn't get it on straight no matter what, so I'm stuffed till my Cyclone ISIS gear gets here.

 

[Tinto]

Missed by " " that much
They offered it to me for $156 total and I ordered it straight away.
More's the pity cos I'm in Gosnells.

I went back to them with the price you mentioned and ordered today too.
In an online culture of buy-it-now, it is refreshing to be able to haggle a bit

 

[t0me]

My Cyclone crankset arrived today. So decent service there.
Ordered from http://cyclone-tw.com/ Part number 140mm ISIS B.B. 444432T3 pc chainwheel freewheel crank set (Cost as of 28/3/13 $98 US + shipping - which was $58 to Australia)

It looks GREAT. No doubt a major improvement over the GNG kit.
I've fitted it already of course, tested it. It's excellent.

I am happy to highly recommend this to anyone with the GNG kit as a simple, easy upgrade.
I'd go so far as to recommend that if you're about to buy the GNG kit, ask for it to be supplied without the crankset, freewheel and forward chainrings, and get this kit instead.
The only part you need from the GNG supplied kit is a locking ring, and it should be a standard part.

Enough talk though, pictures.