Tabless design cylindrical cells tests
- Thread starter Pajda
- Start date
BatteryMooch
10 kW
I’m thinking that any 18650’s that will be released in the next 3 years, if not longer, are already in development. Every company has a pretty good idea of what‘s going on in all the others. It’s just what each decides to actually do in response based on their abilities, target customers, and budget. It will be verrrrry interesting to see how it goes though! 18650 releases were few and far between for quite a while (making me think a flood from everyone is imminent).
BatteryMooch
10 kW
In response? No.
Cell development takes years, literally years before it’s ready for full production.
But I’m sure there are already cells in development by multiple companies that will all be vying for the same market segment as the JP30.
BlueSwordM
100 W
- Joined
- Jul 23, 2018
- Messages
- 215
Probably not. There has been less overall focus on 18650 cells in general.
However, I wouldn't be surprised if Molicel of all people would blindside all other manufacturers with a 3500-4000mAh high power 18650 cell.
thermal_runaway
100 mW
EVE 30PL Q1 2025. Not sure about Ampace. Tenpower was also targeting Q1/Q2 for a range of tabless 18650s.
There is large demand from the power tool market for high power 18650s.
There is large demand from the power tool market for high power 18650s.
Pajda
10 kW
Small update
Update:
- more cycles in 5C charts
- first 50 cycles for Ampace 21700A (+INR22/7)
Update:
- more cycles in 5C charts
- first 50 cycles for Ampace 21700A (+INR22/7)
thermal_runaway
100 mW
Definitely wouldn't be surprised either since they've been doing a lot with Si anodes.. I think right now Amprius has a 4000mAh 18650 that can do 20A pulse discharge. 3500mAh I've seen on roadmaps for other manufacturers but they're far from commercialization.
someone tested a tool battery with it, it's just a glorified 4ah 10a cont cell like that vapcell, nothing special. high IR etc
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BatteryMooch
10 kW
The SA10 4Ah 18650 has a 12A cont/20A pulse rating but, yea, the AC IR is 25mΩ (max)…pretty high. Actual cycle life test results will be interesting to see…some day.
I looked around and couldn’t find that power tool test…do you remember where you saw it?
BatteryMooch
10 kW
I received the pack (partially disassembled) with those mystery cells and it’s the standard cell 18V pack, not the tabless cell 18V+ pack. I suspect that these cells will indeed be regular Molicel P42A’s but I’ll be able to test them this weekend.
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thermal_runaway
100 mW
that's a pretty serious copper busbar! especially in comparison to the milwaukee/dewalts pre-tabless.
Very interesting, a bit disappointing but also raises some questions. Like why it performed a bit better than standard 8ah packs from others with 40T cells, why don't they market it as 4.2Ah (at least on the label) and why did they think it was a plus pack, maybe some marketing shenanigans. Also Bosch previously also used 40T cells in 8ah packs, why did they change them.
I am still eager to see your tests vs standard P42A and hopefully you will open one cell up just to verify, thank you so much!
I am still eager to see your tests vs standard P42A and hopefully you will open one cell up just to verify, thank you so much!
Pajda
10 kW
In my experience the "A" series from Molicel like the P42A and P28A never stood out in terms of performance, only price. The "B" series was the one who started to write a different story. So P42A is not much better than other 4Ah comeptitors at high discharge rates. Maybe Bosch just got a better deal on the ageing P42A model from Molicel.
5C discharge
P42A: 3968 mAh / 13.47 Wh
40T3: 3884 mAh / 12.91 Wh
EVE 40P: 3941 mAh / 13.32 Wh
5C discharge
P42A: 3968 mAh / 13.47 Wh
40T3: 3884 mAh / 12.91 Wh
EVE 40P: 3941 mAh / 13.32 Wh
BatteryMooch
10 kW
The P42A can perform a bit better than the 40T3 but it might be other design changes in the pack that reduced the overall IR?
The P42A has a min capacity spec of 4000mAh so they might be going off that? Underrating a touch and simplifying the number can help with marketing too.
Do you remember who said it was an 18V+ pack?
The switch to P42A could be what @Pajda brought up, price. Moli might have made them an offer they couldn’t refuse to clear out some warehouses.
The Moli‘s might have a better cycle life when abused? @Pajda, do have any test results we could use?
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Pajda
10 kW
What do you guys think of me?
The Molicel P42A is a textbook example of why it is advisable to measure parameters not only for the first cycle.
BatteryMooch
10 kW
Thank you…awesome.What do you guys think of me?
Looks like about 4%-5% more capacity retention at 500 cycles for the 40T3? Okaaaayyyyy….so they definitely didn’t use the P42A for cycle life.
Ok they ordered the tabless pack with the + but they received the standard procore pack... Another issue is Bosch's branding, they have core, procore and procore+ packs lol.
At least now we know that they use both 40Ts and P42As in their standard 8ah packs so you can't be sure what you are getting. Still wondering what tabless cells they will use in their + packs.
At least now we know that they use both 40Ts and P42As in their standard 8ah packs so you can't be sure what you are getting. Still wondering what tabless cells they will use in their + packs.
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What is the maximum discharge rate you have achieved with a JP40 before it reaches 60°C?
I am currently testing my new setup for extended discharge cycles at high currents. The maximum I could achieve with my tester/charger was 45A using an external load (1000W resistor), but the JP40 exceeded 60°C, triggering the charger's safety mechanism.
Check the video here. Log into Facebook
I am currently testing my new setup for extended discharge cycles at high currents. The maximum I could achieve with my tester/charger was 45A using an external load (1000W resistor), but the JP40 exceeded 60°C, triggering the charger's safety mechanism.
Check the video here. Log into Facebook
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Pajda
10 kW
In short, according to my measurements JP40 should be able to handle 10C continuous 100% DoD with an initial temperature of 20°C up to 60°C. (I got 65°C with 25°C initial temperature with static air).
In your setup will be the biggest problem with the fixture, where at 40A the transient resistance here cause additional heat generation on both terminals which will rise measured temperature of the cell body. For such currents it's better to weld or carefully solder some kind of strip or wire (I am using welded CU strips, but some thicker Ni will be also fine)
In your setup will be the biggest problem with the fixture, where at 40A the transient resistance here cause additional heat generation on both terminals which will rise measured temperature of the cell body. For such currents it's better to weld or carefully solder some kind of strip or wire (I am using welded CU strips, but some thicker Ni will be also fine)
Which spot welder and what thickness/ width CU strips? Did you use flux?