Tabless design cylindrical cells tests

neptronix said:
From the article:
"PRiMX50U-Power can charge to 80% capacity in just 15 minutes"

Sounds like a high discharge, high capacity cell from here :cool:
Click to expand...
Well, it definitely should.

I have received info that the BAK INR4680 with a claimed capacity of 32 Ah @ 113 Wh which should give an energy density of 870 Wh/l!!! and 300 Wh/kg is already available to order and just by the way it also promises a 15 minute 10-80% charging time, where (sorry Samsung :unsure: ) I feel it can actually do that.
 
Holy smokes, man. Got any links for info?
I've been dreaming of building a 1P pack ebike one day.
 
BlueSwordM said:
They likely got their info from a friend of mine with direct access to BAK cells :)
Click to expand...
Yup, have seen this specific INR4680 on BAK website for a long time, but I had no information that it is already in production.
My point is that the larger BAK 4690 and 4695 only have 31 Ah and 33 Ah respectively, this means around 750 Whl/l which is already no big deal today, but the 32 Ah in the 4680 is quite unique.

Also, I still have some hope that I might get another NEWARE system for large currents with regenerative capability in the future, so that I can supply the community with cycle-life data for large cell formats as well.
 
Hi everyone I need your help in identifying which cells is in the new Bosch procore 8ah battery.

What we know is for sure - 4Ah, 21700, tabless, cells without the wrap and with only marking on the tin being "LAA9M60601" and no spiral weld on negative terminal.

I have already eliminated known options from the list, EVE 40PL, Ampace JP40, Murata VX40, they all have different markings or a spiral weld.

So it must be some of the announced ones (bak, tenpower??), we also know that Bosch announced this pack over a year ago but we are only seeing retail units now. I haven't seen anyone use this format for the marking so I don't even know where to start lol.

Thanks for your help in advance!
 
Last edited:
riba2233 said:
What we know is for sure - 4Ah, 21700, tabless, cells without the wrap and with only marking on the tin being "LAA9M60601" and no spiral weld on negative terminal.
Click to expand...
That code sure seems the same as used on the Molicel P42A (see images below), but that’s not tabless. Are we sure about that feature?

“M” would be a 2022 manufacture date in Molicel code, with the “O” in the P42A below (Moli uses confusing “O”, same as zero) being a 2024 code.

I can take other photos if needed to better compare to the Bosch cells. Check the size/font of the can code, top contact structure, can tooling marks, bending radii, top seal color and thickness, top and bottom surface finish, width and shape of crimp channel (around the can, just below top).
 

Attachments

  • IMG_4165.jpeg
    IMG_4165.jpeg
    1.5 MB · Views: 21
  • IMG_4166.jpeg
    IMG_4166.jpeg
    2.3 MB · Views: 21
  • IMG_4167.jpeg
    IMG_4167.jpeg
    1.8 MB · Views: 17
  • IMG_4168.jpeg
    IMG_4168.jpeg
    1.6 MB · Views: 20
Last edited:
riba2233 said:
Hi everyone I need your help in identifying which cells is in the new Bosch procore 8ah battery.

What we know is for sure - 4Ah, 21700, tabless, cells without the wrap and with only marking on the tin being "LAA9M60601" and no spiral weld on negative terminal.

I have already eliminated known options from the list, EVE 40PL, Ampace JP40, Murata VX40, they all have different markings or a spiral weld.

So it must be some of the announced ones (bak, tenpower??), we also know that Bosch announced this pack over a year ago but we are only seeing retail units now. I haven't seen anyone use this format for the marking so I don't even know where to start lol.

Thank for your help in advance!
Click to expand...
I don't believe Tenpower has launched yet (edit 2: actually, it could be.. Bosch has used them before), as far as I've been told by them it's still sampling phase. BAK has been on market, but they don't have a history of supplying Western manufacturers.. vs. EVE/Ampace/Tenpower/Lishen (looking at spreadsheets like this one). All things considered they're a smaller company in the battery space and as far as I'm aware have primarily supplied ESS and micromobility.

I wonder if it's some custom Molicel 4Ah? They move about as fast as the Chinese companies, I could see them dedicating whatever tabless production to a larger company first before launching one as part of their full lineup.

Edit: Maybe they're doing a tabless refresh for the P42A, since we know 4-4.5Ah is currently the "max" for MP tabless.
 
Last edited:
Small update

Update:
- updated 5C and 10C discharge charts with Ampace 21700A. Actually, it's interesting that no Ampace cell uses the JP40 codename on its tube, so we can find cells with tube marking: LT22710A and Ampace 21700A (+INR22/7). In my tests all three competitors AM04, LT22710A and Ampace 21700A shows similar performance. So the key to the selection is which cell will offer the best production consistency in its parameters. (unfortunately I don't have time to check this)

I believe @CamLight is now working on explaining how the various "JP40" markings are supposed to work.
 
Pajda said:
Actually, it's interesting that no Ampace cell uses the JP40 codename on its tube,
Click to expand...
That bothers me too. It’s called the JP40 but no cell has that model number on it. Even the full datasheet that’s supposed to be for the JP40 just says “INR21700-4000mAh” for the model number.

Makes me wonder if some colossal mistake was made back at the start of all this. 😂 But there’s no other cell mentioned by Ampace that this one could be so perhaps, probably?, it really is the JP40.
 
CamLight said:
That code sure seems the same as used on the Molicel P42A (see images below), but that’s not tabless. Are we sure about that feature?

“M” would be a 2022 manufacture date in Molicel code, with the “O” in the P42A below (Moli uses confusing “O”, same as zero) being a 2024 code.

I can take other photos if needed to better compare to the Bosch cells. Check the size/font of the can code, top contact structure, can tooling marks, bending radii, top seal color and thickness, top and bottom surface finish, width and shape of crimp channel (around the can, just below top).
Click to expand...
Why is cell marked "not for e-cig or vape"?
 
CamLight said:
Standard legal CYA move since vapers keep blowing themselves up and suing everyone (literally) in sight. No round cell is ever supposed to be used outside a fully protected battery pack though (standard statement by all the big manufacturers).
Click to expand...
When did this practice start?

This is the bad cell I found (with no such marking) in one of the groups in my first autopsy of a 13S 4P cheapo pack given to me.
 

Attachments

  • IMG_4525.jpeg
    IMG_4525.jpeg
    2.5 MB · Views: 12
Zambam said:
When did this practice start?

This is the bad cell I found (with no such marking) in one of the groups in my first autopsy of a 13S 4P cheapo pack given to me.
Click to expand...
It started several years ago, Murata I think. Then Samsung and Moli. Not sure who else.
There are many companies who don’t do it, especially China-based ones who can”t be touched legally from the US. But for some companies, like Moli, it’s a standard move for cells they feel might be used “loose”, individually by end users or DIY pack makers.
 
Last edited:
CamLight said:
That code sure seems the same as used on the Molicel P42A (see images below), but that’s not tabless. Are we sure about that feature?

“M” would be a 2022 manufacture date in Molicel code, with the “O” in the P42A below (Moli uses confusing “O”, same as zero) being a 2024 code.

I can take other photos if needed to better compare to the Bosch cells. Check the size/font of the can code, top contact structure, can tooling marks, bending radii, top seal color and thickness, top and bottom surface finish, width and shape of crimp channel (around the can, just below top).
Click to expand...

Ok I got some photos back, they look exactly like this lol, so we can say they are Molicels right, maybe some announunced or custom ones? I doubt Bosch would lie about them being tabless but they do perform weaker than Ampace, based on voltage drop they are in between Ampace and 40T's but that is considering the whole pack and interconnects, not just bare cells.

1.jpg

2.jpg


3.jpg
 
riba2233 said:
Ok I got some photos back, they look exactly like this lol, so we can say they are Molicels right, maybe some announunced or custom ones? I doubt Bosch would lie about them being tabless but they do perform weaker than Ampace, based on voltage drop they are in between Ampace and 40T's but that is considering the whole pack and interconnects, not just bare cells.
Click to expand...
Thank for posting those photos! Wow, yea, those look like P42A’s.

IMO Moli wouldn‘t keep their first tabless cell ever from being announced. They have announced the P60B, P70X, P22S, P30S, P50S, XA1, XA2, and XA3 and they could still only sell those to a single customer for a year or two. Moli marketing I think would demand that they can go public with info about their first tabless cell, if it existed, so folks would stop thinking Moli was lagging in new tech development.

The newer Moli’s are also not using the can code anymore, just a QR-style code box on the bottom. Timing matters here though and I don’t know when the switch occurred and we don’t know when Bosch bought their cells. But it does push things a bit more towards that cell being an older one and not a new one.

Which Bosch pack is this? (Oops...Bosch Procore 8Ah) I want to check how they phrased the “tabless” mention.

Any chance one of those cells could be sent to me here in NYC? I’d be happy to test the cell and compare it to a P42A (performance and via a teardown).
 
Last edited:
riba2233 said:
Ok I got some photos back, they look exactly like this lol, so we can say they are Molicels right, maybe some announunced or custom ones? I doubt Bosch would lie about them being tabless but they do perform weaker than Ampace, based on voltage drop they are in between Ampace and 40T's but that is considering the whole pack and interconnects, not just bare cells.
Click to expand...
Is there any fundamental reason why not to cut the sample and look inside? Like the sample has kind of emotional value for someone? Just a thought from a random passerby ;)
 
CamLight said:
Second image is clearer, from a short Bosch promo video.
Click to expand...
Anyway, it's an amazing world where we have a 100Mpx camera in every phone, with advanced focusing and AI, and yet you can't still get a sharp photo.

it seems to me that on the photo there are dummy cells (open cans without terminals), which are just to prove the use of tabless design inside?
 
Last edited:
Pajda said:
it seems to me that on the photo there are dummy cells (open cans without terminals), which are just to prove the use of tabless design inside?
Click to expand...
LOL…I was just on my way to edit my post regarding the rendered video stills. The first image has caps on the anodes but the second image has the ends of the cans removed and just Isn’t a good representation of the actual cells. That was my mistake and I’m deleting those images. Thank you!
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

P
    • Like
Cycle life tests of mixed-technology cells
Replies
8
Views
1,376
Pajda
P
P
    • Like
Cycle life tests of High Energy density cylindrical cells
4 5 6 7 8
Replies
178
Views
45,173
Pajda
P
P
    • Like
Cycle life tests of High Power density cylindrical cells
2 3 4 5
Replies
119
Views
24,325
yantra yatra
Y
P
    • Like
Calendar ageing tests of mixed cylindrical cells
Replies
13
Views
3,199
Pajda
P
GreenTecAuto
Valence U27-12XP Lithium Ion Battery $370 per Module
Replies
1
Views
1,211
GreenTecAuto
GreenTecAuto
Back
Top