The new Qute Q100H motor

[motomech]

I've only done high school physics, but something seems "off" to me. Given that the original motor is 350w, and this motor is 350w, the only way they can raise torque 30% is by reducing speed 30%.

I've been doing a lot of reading on the QQ series motors, because I'm about to buy one. The Q100H actually has about double the reduction ratio of the Q100 (1/12 vs 1/6th IIRC), and so really does maintain about the same RPM with 30% more torque. However, given the same controller, the Q100H is much noisier, and some have actually downgraded back to the Q100 after purchasing the "better" 100H for this reason, AFAIU.

I'm leaning towards the smoother, quieter, less torquey one, because it's reported to fairly easily drive at 20mph in a 26" wheel, on 36v 15 amp (max) controller.

I've only done high school physics, but something seems "off" to me. Given that the original motor is 350w, and this motor is 350w, the only way they can raise torque 30% is by reducing speed 30%.

That post was from the beginning of this thread, Nov. '13 and was answered, in part, by the next respondent, D8veh.

The Q100H actually has about double the reduction ratio of the Q100 (1/12 vs 1/6th IIRC)....

WRONG. The "H"comes in two motor speeds, 201 and 260.
These Q100 reduction ratios have been physically checked to be;
201H-15.7 to 1
328 standard-10.8 to 1
And until I can inspect my 260H motor, I am assuming the ratio is at, or close to, BMS Battery's claim of 12.6 to 1.
Since you do not specify which H model and which standard Q100 you are comparing, it's impossible to know what you are refering to, but there are no two Q100 versions where one has double the reduction ratio of another.

... and so really does maintain about the same RPM with 30% more torque

WRONG If the RPM has not changed, what you are talking about is actually "thrust", a value more correctly considered to be a function of motor efficiency.
"Torque" is more closely related to mechanical leverage. Torque and thrust together can be thought of motor "Power" output.
At any rate, nobody that I am aware of, has thought the H models have 30% more POWER. D8veh, a very respected tester, felt it was more like 10%.
It is difficult to do a direct comparsion because the only direct comparsion would be the standard 201 to the 201H, where they use the same reduction ratio. This would eliminate the "torque" factor and allow one to focus on the "thrust" factor, ie, motor efficiency.

However, given the same controller, the Q100H is much noisier

WRONG!! I have gone back and forth between the standard Q100 and the H with the same controller, and if there is any difference in sound between them, it beyond my range of hearing. As near as I can tell, they sound exactly the same.

...because it's reported to fairly easily drive at 20mph in a 26" wheel, on 36v 15 amp (max) controller.

WRONG. the standard 201 does 18 mph in a 26"wheel @ 36 Volts
The standard 328 might reach 22 or 23 mph before it becomes current limited, but this is too high a motor speed for that size wheel and is not recommended.
A 260H in a 26"wheel on 36 Volts will do 20 mph.

I don't know exactally where you have been reading to pick-up so much mis-information, but I would recommend you start reading here or Pedelecs UK and try and stay away from those Russian forums.

 

[quuxman]

Thanks motomech, I wish I had read this before I made my order from bmsbattery.com, or I would've probably gotten the Q100H 201 wind. I didn't realize different Q100H versions had different reduction ratios, that makes a lot of sense. I was writing that from memory after a lot of late night browsing of endless-sphere I believe. I have never thought of the concept of thrust of a motor, which for some reason I had compartmentalized in my head to rockets. This is very helpful.

Please excuse my rampant misinformation, lol. 18mph is fine for me too, for this build (unlike my powerful Mac 10T build), I'm intending for using the motor for hauling, uphill, and headwinds only, not for speed.

 

[bowlofsalad]

the Q100H is much noisier

The nylon gears aren't perfect when made, so initially the noise volume is going to be louder. After riding a certain distance there should be a noticeable reduction in noise output as much of the excess material is worn away.

 

[motomech]

Thanks motomech, I wish I had read this before I made my order from bmsbattery.com, or I would've probably gotten the Q100H 201 wind. I didn't realize different Q100H versions had different reduction ratios, that makes a lot of sense. I was writing that from memory after a lot of late night browsing of endless-sphere I believe. I have never thought of the concept of thrust of a motor, which for some reason I had compartmentalized in my head to rockets. This is very helpful.

Please excuse my rampant misinformation, lol. 18mph is fine for me too, for this b(unlike my powerful Mac 10T build), I'm intending for using the motors for hauling, uphill, and headwinds only, not for speed.

How long ago was the order placed? It takes BMS Battery a week or so to put it together. I have contacted Jack several days into the process and changed things, no problem.

 

[motomech]

Finished my motor swap.
201H front and a 201 CST rear.
Both using Elifebike 17 Amp controllers feed by two 12S Lipo batteries.
Did some crude timed runs, dead stop to top speed(approx. 20 mph).
Not that accurate, but accurate enough relative to each other.
CST rear-20 seconds to 20 mph.
H front-15 seconds to 20 mph.
Both-10 seconds to 22 mph.
Using both, the bike feels fast, remember, I'm a heavy guy-250 lb.s.

 

[quuxman]

Finished my motor swap.
201H front and a 201 CST rear.

What's the 201 CST?

These numbers are great to have. Very curious what I get out of my new build, and I should time what my Mac 10T 48 volt ~1kW (I've seen it pull 1.3kW very briefly) does for 0-20. Just going from my memory of riding it for a year+ and never having timed it, I'm going to say 5 seconds. I'm 130 lbs and my bike weighs 58 total.

 

[dakh]

201CST is a rear wheel drive Q100 with Shimano 9sp cassette compatible freehub. Which means the motor body is narrower than the q100h freewheel version.

 

[d8veh]

Finished my motor swap.
201H front and a 201 CST rear.
Both using Elifebike 17 Amp controllers feed by two 12S Lipo batteries.
Did some crude timed runs, dead stop to top speed(approx. 20 mph).
Not that accurate, but accurate enough relative to each other.
CST rear-20 seconds to 20 mph.
H front-15 seconds to 20 mph.
Both-10 seconds to 22 mph.
Using both, the bike feels fast, remember, I'm a heavy guy-250 lb.s.

Very useful. That gives a good idea of the difference in power between the Q100H and the Q100C. It's quite a lot. 33% more torque for the Q100H!

 

[neptronix]

CST rear-20 seconds to 20 mph.
H front-15 seconds to 20 mph.
Both-10 seconds to 22 mph.
Using both, the bike feels fast, remember, I'm a heavy guy-250 lb.s.

Good god, i forgot how slow tiny geared motors are.
I looked at a old video on mine. 6kW on a 1500w motor leaf motor easily does 0-20 in 3-4 seconds. I'm 190lb, but the bike is probably 60lb.
Not bragging, just pointing out the contrast.

I'm not surprised that the Q100H is faster. That really tall internal gearing on the motor has gotta give you great torque compared to most small geared motors.

 

[amigafan2003]

CST rear-20 seconds to 20 mph.
H front-15 seconds to 20 mph.
Both-10 seconds to 22 mph.
Using both, the bike feels fast, remember, I'm a heavy guy-250 lb.s.

Good god, i forgot how slow tiny geared motors are.
I looked at a old video on mine. 6kW on a 1500w motor leaf motor easily does 0-20 in 3-4 seconds. I'm 190lb, but the bike is probably 60lb.
Not bragging, just pointing out the contrast.

I'm not surprised that the Q100H is faster. That really tall internal gearing on the motor has gotta give you great torque compared to most small geared motors.

Quelle surprise that a motor being fed 7x the power accelerates 5x as fast

 

[tumich]

I think about buy this motor (Q100H rear with 260rpm).
If the engine has clutch? Do you feel the resistance of the engine while driving without power?

I think also about similar engine/kit - little smaller but with integrated controller and buttons/lcd called Keyde. I heard last year bad opinions about this motor (Keyde) but seller wrote me that engine was improved this year. Usa ebike campany called Prodeco offers his bikes with that engine so maybe they really improved. Anyone use engine from them? 430USD incl shipping DHL for that kit (without battery).

http://electricbikereview.com/prodecotech/titanio-29er/

 

[docnjoj]

Hey Tumich
NO resistance at all on my Q100H freewheel. Just like the regular trike. Tongzin and Keyde use similar designs, and maybe the Keyde is improved. Maybe not. The Tongxin was very poor in longevity. Mine lasted exactly 4.5 miles.
otherDoc

 

[Ykick]

I think about buy this motor (Q100H rear with 260rpm).
If the engine has clutch? Do you feel the resistance of the engine while driving without power?

I think also about similar engine/kit - little smaller but with integrated controller and buttons/lcd called Keyde. I heard last year bad opinions about this motor (Keyde) but seller wrote me that engine was improved this year. Usa ebike campany called Prodeco offers his bikes with that engine so maybe they really improved. Anyone use engine from them? 430USD incl shipping DHL for that kit (without battery).

http://electricbikereview.com/prodecotech/titanio-29er/

I use Q128H and Q100CST motors. As long as the clutch is functioning properly these motors freewheel fine. I don’t detect any drag coasting.

While simple, these clutches can not release for a couple reasons and may need reworking some small springs and/or cleaning/lubricating the ramp/pawl mechanism if that happens.

I’ve only bought Q motors from BMS Battery.

 

[tumich]

BMS battery.com have these motors but contact with them is very hard.
Any otchers sources?

 

[docnjoj]

I've gotten some stuff including 2 motors from them (Q100H) and controllers with no problems. Just be very specific with the motors as far as wind speeds. They have done their website much better these days.
otherDoc

 

[tumich]

I've gotten some stuff including 2 motors from them (Q100H) and controllers with no problems. Just be very specific with the motors as far as wind speeds. They have done their website much better these days.
otherDoc

Do you have 260 rpm version or 200~?

 

[d8veh]

I think about buy this motor (Q100H rear with 260rpm).
If the engine has clutch? Do you feel the resistance of the engine while driving without power?

The Q100 has the clutch between the ring gear and the side-plate, so only the hub rotates when free-wheeling. This means no resisistance from the motor.

 

[docnjoj]

I've gotten some stuff including 2 motors from them (Q100H) and controllers with no problems. Just be very specific with the motors as far as wind speeds. They have done their website much better these days.
otherDoc

Do you have 260 rpm version or 200~?

260 rpm in 20" wheels.
otherDoc

 

[tumich]

Is that the smallest controller which will works with Q100H?
https://bmsbattery.com/46-sine-wave
Guys you think that on 700C wheel can do it minimum 30km/h top speed on 36V nominal battery ? Or better config for 48V?
What is top speed on 48V? 30% faster?

 

[dilkes]

I need to replace the geared front wheel hub motor on my 700C cruiser-style bike. I already have a 20 amp controller and 48V battery in place so was planning to just get the new motor/wheel. I was about to order the Q128, but after reading here am wondering if I should go for the Q100H?
Is there any issue running the Q100H at 48V? (the BMS site shows it as 36V)
Is it a better choice than the Q128?

Any advice welcome.

 

[motomech]

The Q100H will be ok on 48V/20A. In fact, it's getting close to the max power that I feel is safe on the frt.
the Q128 will take more Amps, and so equipped, will dig down deeper on longer, steep hills, but the Q100H (201) will climb steep hills of several blocks long.
Since you already have the controller and if you don't deal with those killers hills, you might as well go with the Cute.
And. it's so small, there are no brake caliper clearance issues. Haven't used the Q128 frt., so not sure on that.

TIP; The "H" motors from BMS Battery come in black, while the motor from E Life Bike are silver.

Get a torque arm!

 

[quuxman]

Hi, I just [mostly] finished building up a bike with the black Q100 201 RPM motor. Since you specifically mentioned disc brakes, I wanted to point out that with at least my Avid brakes (likely all brands), the motor definitely didn't fit with a 160mm rotor. I had to buy a 180mm rotor and adapter for the brake. Also note that you may not be able to use the bolts that come with a new rotor. The ones I tried were too long, and scraped on the inside.

Otherwise, the motor seems great, though I've barely tested it (only a few rides). It is _very_ quiet, and I haven't even broken in the gears yet. When riding on the bike, I can hear it, but when riding next to it, even very closely, I couldn't hear it at all over road and city noise, whereas my Mac 10T on my other bike is easily noticeable.

I can't say much about it's power output because I stupidly got the recommended very wimpy S06S 17 amp controller from bmsbattery.com. I did a short (for me, I like to climb mountains) but fairly steep ~400 foot test climb as fast as I could go with the controller and the motor only got slightly warm. The controller on the other hand was uncomfortably hot already at half way. I'm replacing the S06S with the 25 amp S12S as soon as I can, along with the S-LCD5 so I can set a current limit (S-LCD1 can't do this) in case I get worried about the motor overheating. If the controller is always well under it's rated amperage, I won't worry about it blowing up so much, and I'll have a lot more power if I want it.

Also note that the Q100 has 13 gauge spoke holes, whereas standard rims are 14 gauge. I ended up ordering special 13-14 spokes, that are one gauge fatter on the hub end, and normal size on the rim end, so I could lace it up with a standard beefy alloy rim.

 

[motomech]

I wanted to point out that with at least my Avid brakes (likely all brands), the motor definitely didn't fit with a 160mm rotor.

Yours is the only set-up I have heard of that didn't clear with the Q100 install. With my Marzoochi forks and Deore/Sole installs, it wasn't even close. The Q100 motor diameter is only 110 m/m.

Aside from the new 20 amp battery intergrated unit, BMS Battery doesn't offer a sine wave controller well matched to the Cute motors.
The huge S12S limits current only in PAS and in general usage, it is too powerful for these small motors.
It's not a matter of "överheating", that takes Volts as well as Amps, but it tends to "hammer" the motor, producing an unpleasent sensation.
Whether or not it will damage the gears, I'm not sure as I didn't run the Q100/S12S combo for long.
I use the Elifebike 9-FET controllers with the Cutes. The 17A version. There is a 19A unit that might be good for a rear mounted "H".

I just used standard 14 Ga. bicycle spokes when I laced up my Alex 24 Rims.

 

[quuxman]

@motomech

Interesting that most brakes actually fit. There was significant overlap with the part that houses the wheel side pad. What size is your disc rotor? 180 fits no problem with any brake, but I'd be surprised if most 160mm brakes fit.

Why aren't the controllers BMSBATTERY.com supplies well matched to this motor? I should read more about this. Do you use a Cycle Analyst with the controller Elife supplies? I looked at the plug diagram for their QQ-500-9m and didn't see anything for a cycle computer, which means I couldn't easily change amperage cut off. And the next one up in power is the QQ-1000 30 amp, total overkill. I'm starting to think I should settle with the S06S from BMS, but I'm quite worried about how hot it got. On my other bike the controller is only a little warm after continues steep climbs of 1k+ vertical feet.

Why only run a 19 amp controller in rear? Would 19 amps provide too much torque for a front wheel? I have a front wheel hub in my rear wheel (front wheel pedal drive bike).

Thanks again for your expertise.

 

[Alan B]

Has anyone tried one of the new Grin FOC controllers on these motors? (BAC500/BAC800)?