The new Qute Q100H motor

[quuxman]

I did another ride on the new Q100 build, and I'm starting to think the controller I have may be totally fine. I noticed that when climbing a steep hill, setting the assist level to 2/5 barely effected the speed, had no effect on pedaling effort I was putting in, and I could easily hear the difference in the motor. It seems like the controller dumps a bunch of excess power on heavy loads at low RPM.

I climbed the same hill as last time using a more reasonable (not the steepest possible) route, and the controller was hot-ish, but nothing like before. My intention with this build was for it to about match one's leg power plus a bit more, which it seems to do quite well. My first bike puts out about 3x my leg power, which is really fun, but is unnecessary for me, reduces range, does not encourage exercise as much as I'd like, and adds weight to the bike.

 

[bowlofsalad]

Has anyone tried one of the new Grin FOC controllers on these motors? (BAC500/BAC800)?

I have, a BAC500+, but not a ton so far, zero actual riding on a bicycle with it. Compared to the S12S it is much quieter.

 

[quuxman]

@bowlofsalad wow, that is one pricey controller. I could burn through 13 of the ones from bmsbattery.com before adding up to the price of that one. What's so special about it?

 

[Alan B]

Don't forget shipping, that's as much as the controller from BMSBattery.

The difference is the BAC controllers are sinewave Field Oriented Control, and the pricing is first line rather than cheap clone. There's reloadable firmware and an application that allows much more control of the parameters, the controller measures motor current and has a buttery smooth torque throttle. The company that makes them has developed the technology and made commercial motor controls for a long time, they are being repackaged for ebikes by Justin and potted in plastic, so they should be a lot more waterproof. They are about 2x2x6 and more compatible with ebike frames than the chunky extruded aluminum boxes. The base is aluminum for taking heat out of the controller to the bike frame. They have thermal rollback and other built in protection so they should not fail. They also auto detect the motor phasing and halls so you don't have to try all the wiring combos, and they tune to the motor characteristics. They smoothly rotate the magnetic field in the motor so don't make the whine of the trapezoidal controllers and are generally quieter (and the gears amplify this trapezoidal motor whine, not all the gear noise is from the gears themselves). Some have reported slight improvements in efficiency.

This being a Q100H thread further motor controller discussion should probably take place in the BAC thread or elsewhere.

 

[dakh]

So I finally got all the pieces in my possession now but a buddy is getting married, bachelor party and then pre-party and then the ceremony... Liver will take a big hit. After that, I promise I'll test the shit out of this stuff. Even got the CST built into a wheel by a local pro. Not like the Chinese-built front I have now where spokes go completely loose after 300 miles of riding, ugh. So I can test old front Q100 vs Q100H@201RPM, then front Q100H@260, then CST@201 and hopefully gears will swap so I can test CST@260. Later on I'll have a rear Q100H laced into a wheel as well, so can test that too.

 

[lqbweb]

Anyone knows another source for this motor? BMSBatteries shipping is very high.

 

[vwhammer]

Most places that ship this motor will have very high shipping rates because it comes from china but BMS Batt was the cheapest that I could find before I bought mine.

 

[d8veh]

There's no problem with the shipping cost. The only thing you should look at is the overall cost, which you can compare with other suppliers, then you will go back to BMSB because they're cheap and have the best choice of controllers and batteries.

 

[tumich]

There's no problem with the shipping cost. The only thing you should look at is the overall cost, which you can compare with other suppliers, then you will go back to BMSB because they're cheap and have the best choice of controllers and batteries.

Do you think that Q100H with 260rpm on 36V nominal will faster than 200rpm on 48V nominal?

 

[chas58]

There's no problem with the shipping cost. The only thing you should look at is the overall cost, which you can compare with other suppliers, then you will go back to BMSB because they're cheap and have the best choice of controllers and batteries.

Do you think that Q100H with 260rpm on 36V nominal will faster than 200rpm on 48V nominal?

do the math:
200 *48/36 = 266rpm.

So yeah, either way it is about a 20mph motor.
with 48v it will have a little more power and thus need more batteries (for the same Ah) and have a shorter range (for the same Ah).

Personally I use 36v because I like to pedal and I like a nice light weight build. I'm in the minority though - most people here want more power!

 

[tumich]

do the math:
200 *48/36 = 266rpm.

So yeah, either way it is about a 20mph motor.
with 48v it will have a little more power and thus need more batteries (for the same Ah) and have a shorter range (for the same Ah).

Personally I use 36v because I like to pedal and I like a nice light weight build. I'm in the minority though - most people here want more power!

Thank you for reply. Do you have 36V and 200rpm engine or 260rpm version? I like to pedal too and I will use only with PAS system. I have 700C wheels.
By the way PAS will works above 25km/h?

 

[d8veh]

When you buy a kit from China, there's no speed limit set. If you want a peed limit, you can set it yourself in the LCD. 700c whels will give a top speed of about 35km/h. I would use the 201 rpm 36v Q100H at 48v to get that speed unless you're light. The 48v system will give 33% more torque to hold the higher speed compared with the 36v 260 rpm one.

 

[tumich]

When you buy a kit from China, there's no speed limit set. If you want a peed limit, you can set it yourself in the LCD. 700c whels will give a top speed of about 35km/h. I would use the 201 rpm 36v Q100H at 48v to get that speed unless you're light. The 48v system will give 33% more torque to hold the higher speed compared with the 36v 260 rpm one.

Total weight with rider will about 188 pounds/85kg.
So top speed will similar 36V 260rpm vs 48V 201rpm?
Controller for 36V are cheaper (sine wave) than for 48V.

Do I need LCD/buttons in order to work engine with PAS?

 

[d8veh]

The no-load speed will be the same, but the speed on the road will be different because the 48v system gives 33% more power and torque, which will keep the speed higher on hills and against strong winds. At 85kg, I'd recommend 48v. 75kg or less 36v would be OK.

The 48v controller costs the same as the 36v one. You should maybe buy the LCD from the same supplier, but compare the costs.

http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Regeneration-Electric-Bicycle-Brush-less-Controller-48V-6-MOSFET/1749495210.html

 

[tumich]

The no-load speed will be the same, but the speed on the road will be different because the 48v system gives 33% more power and torque, which will keep the speed higher on hills and against strong winds. At 85kg, I'd recommend 48v. 75kg or less 36v would be OK.

The 48v controller costs the same as the 36v one. You should maybe buy the LCD from the same supplier, but compare the costs.

http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Regeneration-Electric-Bicycle-Brush-less-Controller-48V-6-MOSFET/1749495210.html

Thanks. I will doing on 48V but probably engine will have less life than on 36V.

This controller from upper link have 14A max.
What about this from Sine wave from bootle battery for 20A? Here is link with brakes and lcd but supplier can sell only controller in good price.
https://bmsbattery.com/controller/698-sine-wave-controller-for-09-case-controller.html

Does controller need LCD? Or can be without?

 

[d8veh]

You need the LCD.

 

[dakh]

So I finally took the CST and H motors apart, yes gears look exactly the same to me. I'm very suspect of the CST motor though, the actual motor is WAY narrower than non-CST versions so I'm not going to be surprised at all if it's very weak vs. regular H motor.

Hoping I'll have time to run experiments over the long weekend, I want to compare

201RPM H vs 260RPM H vs 201RPM CST vs 260RPM CST. I have a high precision GPS so I'll see if I can grab some phone software to track acceleration and max speed and test them back to back.

 

[Sunder]

I'm very suspect of the CST motor though, the actual motor is WAY narrower than non-CST versions so I'm not going to be surprised at all if it's very weak vs. regular H motor.

Very keen to see the results of this. I've wanted a CST for ages, as it's been hard getting high quality freewheels that have 11T, but very easy to get high quality cassettes with 11T.

On another thread, a poster suggested that the manufacturers may have changed the lamination thickness to try to recover some of the lost power. It'd be interesting to see what kind of performance hit we'd have to take to get a good quality gearset.

 

[chas58]

So I finally took the CST and H motors apart, yes gears look exactly the same to me. I'm very suspect of the CST motor though, the actual motor is WAY narrower than non-CST versions so I'm not going to be surprised at all if it's very weak vs. regular H motor.

Hoping I'll have time to run experiments over the long weekend, I want to compare

201RPM H vs 260RPM H vs 201RPM CST vs 260RPM CST. I have a high precision GPS so I'll see if I can grab some phone software to track acceleration and max speed and test them back to back.

This is what I have found with non H versions:
RPM = speed (26" or 700c wheel)
200 = 15.4 mph (verified by myself and others)
260 = 20mph (verified by many here)
300 = 23mph (this is my daily ride (requires significant rider input or dual motors))
328 = 25mph (my bike + lots of leg work, or dual motor builds here).

 

[dakh]

My results are only going to be interesting relative to each other for some, will be running it off a 14S NCA pack. I'm getting 23-24mph with mild assist on a plain FWD 201 q100

 

[dakh]

Not to hijack the thread too much, but I finally got the bike together with the CST motor, but I'm not sure if my setup is kosher for testing. When going uphill, low speeds, full throttle, this thing would just make whining noise and not produce any forward motion. But it works just fine otherwise, including taking off from a stop unassisted, even at low throttle. I'm running this at 14s and 14A 6-fet controller. Is this normal? My other motors sure don't do that.

Seat of the pants feeling is that yes CST is weaker, but I'll have to spend some time doing test runs.

 

[motomech]

Sounds like the clutch is not engaging.
Did you have the rollers out?
The rollers and the tiny springs need to be just right or the springs get crimped(don't ask me how I know).
Are you running the SO6S @ 14S?
If you are, I don't think the controller will last long.
Mine didn't.

 

[dakh]

Did some more experiments, it's "stalling out" at lower RPM on full throttle acceleration. Makes nasty high-pitch noise while at it. If I pedal-assist or ease off the throttle to go through the "danger zone" speed, it does just fine.

Pretty sure it's not mechanical. I tried simulating this situation with the rear wheel off the ground and using rear brake. Even if I completely release the brake while it's in the "stall" situation it'll not move, just keeps on making the nasty noise.

All points to incorrect Hall sensors but why would it then work fine otherwise?

 

[dakh]

Oh yea controller is from ebikelife, I have another one like that that has some miles on it already and it's still doing Ok.

Could be a bad controller actually, I haven't tried this one with anything else. Will check, got a couple more of those laying around.

 

[d8veh]

I would say that it's running sensorless for whatever reaon. Check your hall sensor connections carefully. Use a meter to check that the blue, green and yellow hall wires are switching properly. Test them while connected by stuffing your probes in the back of the connector.