Adaptto Mini-E/Max-E Owner's Thread

[Doctorbass]

Tonight i made some interesting discover about the Adaptto controller shunt:

I was discussing with Allex regarding the fact that our MAx-E controllers often dont offer to go as high as the 140A batt setting oin the Boost power profile. I got my two new version 14kW Max-E and one only allow max setting to 120A and the other to 123A!!!... but to get the 14kW at the recommanded max voltage(85V) it require more like 170A batt current... but it is impossible actually to set that value in the locked firmware

Also at high current the internal copper made shunt is ALOT affected by the temperature! At 100A current it raised up to 115A measurement on the display ! that's about 15% higher reading!... so if your shunt is hot, it will limit sooner the current and wont let all the current you think goes in the controller.

Here is our discussion:

I decided to test one to see if the current monitor is right. And it was off by about 3% ( reading 105A while it had 101A)
But to make it calibrated i had to set the Rshunt to 0.396 miliohm and it not can be set only to 121A !! so your theory is right

It's like the 140A target require to have a shunt that have the proper resistor. The 340 miliohm look right to get 140A reading.

Look like we have to add some solder to the shunt... like we did on the past infineon controllers... .lol to get appropriate reading.

here are the compilation of our max current setting availlable compar eto the shunt value that are set: ( Batt Amp and miliohm)
121 0,396
126 0,377
139 0,344

According to excel spreadsheet the predicted max current the actual shunt preset value has been calculated for is about 260A

I will have to modify a little bit the shunt to make it goes to 140A or more =) but i just worrie that the phase current calculation and protection might also be affected. I'll have to see with Jeka....

Oh.. I just opened the second 14kW max-E i have. The shunt is factory calibrated to 396miliohm and max battery current is 120A

This one is opened and i had a chance to measure the milivolt directly at the shunt at 100A and i measure 36 milivolt (= 0.36 miliohm.)

But hey guess what! I left the 100.0A continuous from my power supply on the shunt to see if it is stable. And NOT!.. the current reading that was 105A ( about 5% error) slowly raised to 115A !! after a minute! i would say that it was to about 60 celsius.

so.. just like any other controlelr that measure current with a shunt, as the shunt get hot, it lower the REAL current limit witch "help" protect the controller against overheat....

But hey! we like high power!! these shunt have to be cooled with fins!!


Here is a video of my investigations:

[youtube]q8Q_DJyMw88[/youtube]

 

[Doctorbass]

EDITED ( new info from Andreym on Youtube):

Although the controller current sensing algorithm has a temperature coefficient compensation, however the T sensor is located not exactly near the shunt, but underneath the aluminium heatsink, so on open stand you will have an error when shunt heats up, however while riding the controller itself will heat up as well and the t° compensation will work as it should.

ShuntR value is limited by firmware, so if you want to make your controller output maximum power, you can add some copper to the shunt to make it value = the lowest value in the settings you can choose, but not lower than that. If actual resistance would be lower than the one set in calibration menu, your current readings on the display and the wattmeter would be inaccurate. However if you make modification to the shunt, this will void the warranty, so instead just flash unlocked firmware version that will also void warranty, but will allow you to set any current you want in profiles without touching the shunt

 

[Mammalian04]

Hey Guys,

I am wiring up 15 4S2P Hobby King Flightmax 8400mah LiFe packs into the Raptor 140 frame. BARELY fits. Hopefully I can fit the BMS and 70 amp charging coil inside as well as I want an all in one solution so I don't have to keet taking all those 3mm allen screws out again and again.

Should I be concerned about heat inside while charging?

Also, I am planning to install a Neutrix port near the head tube like Allex did on his Stealth. I will be using a 4 connector port so that I can have + and - from the power supply, and a Loop that completes the charge coil connection to the phase wire when plugged in. See picture below (yes, I know it isn't a Picasso painting). Question is, is there an order that the charge coil needs to be plugged in or will this work fine at the same time? I am thinking I would plug the power supply into the bike, then power supply into the mains wall outlet.

 

[Mammalian04]

This is the plug that I am using. Only downside is that it requires a sizable hole in the frame. I'll post up about that in the Raptor thread.

 

[gensem]

This is the plug that I am using. Only downside is that it requires a sizable hole in the frame. I'll post up about that in the Raptor thread.]

And it doesnt like to take over 30amps

 

[Mammalian04]

This is the plug that I am using. Only downside is that it requires a sizable hole in the frame. I'll post up about that in the Raptor thread.]

And it doesnt like to take over 30amps

This one says it is rated for 250v and 40 amps continuous per contact. Is there something I am not considering that would make it limited to 30 amps?
http://www.neutrik.us/en-us/speakon/stx-series/nlt4mp-bag

If it is in fact limited to 30 amps per contact, maybe we could go with an 8 contact plug and parallel the positive, negative, coil input, and coil output.
http://www.neutrik.us/en-us/speakon/stx-series/nlt8mp

 

[Allex]

I used 2 poles for negative and 2 for positive, at 19A charge current the connector was ok to the touch, not warm. But I would be carefull to only use one pole for more than 15A At least test it before make it permanent.
Great Idea otherwise to use one pole for the loop, simpe and clever!

 

[gensem]

I used 2 poles for negative and 2 for positive, at 19A charge current the connector was ok to the touch, not warm. But I would be carefull to only use one pole for more than 15A At least test it before make it permanent.
Great Idea otherwise to use one pole for the loop, simpe and clever!

Im using one pair for the coil loop and charging at 28a but my charges are pretty fast (15-20min) and the conector is not stuffed in the frame yet.

 

[madin88]

maybe i missed that, but what PSU are you going to use?

the better speakon connectors are rated for 40A rms per contact. they have copper contacts. The others have brass contacts and are rated for 30A rms per contact.
i think the connectors are overrated a bit and will get to hot, but if you use large wires which carry away the heat from the contacts it should be ok.

 

[gensem]

maybe i missed that, but what PSU are you going to use?

the better speakon connectors are rated for 40A rms per contact. they have copper contacts. The others have brass contacts and are rated for 30A rms per contact.
i think the connectors are overrated a bit and will get to hot, but if you use large wires which carry away the heat from the contacts it should be ok.

Im using a eaton from Allex and even with 10awg short wires it still gets very hot. I ended up putting silicon around the connectors just in case it melts the silicon will not allow a short to happen. Later on I ll post a pic.

 

[GCinDC]

alright, i need help. i'm seeing a !HALLS! error but only sometimes.

circumstances:
maxE, recently back from servicing, running fine over last several weeks. upped the current a couple days ago to about 80A/140A - it's parked at work so i can't check at the moment.

rode it home fine last night up my long 1mi hill, when mxus motor temp got up to about 350F, routine over the past month.

motor barely got to 250F on my ride in this am, but at mile 5 of my 6mi commute, it lost power and displayed the !HALLS!. a couple seconds later it went away and i could ride but just for another couple seconds before losing power and displaying the !HALLS!. same thing one more time. then after, and diplayed !HALLS! most of the time. i did a quick inspection of the wiring and didn't see any external damage.

as i pedaled it into garage to park, i felt a couple motor drags, as if a phase had shorted.

so with all that, any thoughts? i'm thinking:
- burnt hall, but in my experience they usually go at peak heat, not later when cool
- shorted wiring, but i didn't see any damage to the wiring
- melted insulation in/near the motor?

i'll bring DMM to work tomorrow to poke around, but have to figure out how to get the beast home if i need to take it apart...

 

[GCinDC]

problem diagnosed: shorted wiring..

one of my disk brake screws got loose, and as it unwound with vibration, it gradually severed the wires coming out of the motor.

now back to your regularly scheduled programming... :lol:

 

[ridethelightning]

Hey Guys,

I am wiring up 15 4S2P Hobby King Flightmax 8400mah LiFe packs into the Raptor 140 frame. BARELY fits. Hopefully I can fit the BMS and 70 amp charging coil inside as well as I want an all in one solution so I don't have to keet taking all those 3mm allen screws out again and again.

Should I be concerned about heat inside while charging?

Also, I am planning to install a Neutrix port near the head tube like Allex did on his Stealth. I will be using a 4 connector port so that I can have + and - from the power supply, and a Loop that completes the charge coil connection to the phase wire when plugged in. See picture below (yes, I know it isn't a Picasso painting). Question is, is there an order that the charge coil needs to be plugged in or will this work fine at the same time? I am thinking I would plug the power supply into the bike, then power supply into the mains wall outlet.

I have a neutrix plug im planning to put on a nyx and i had the same idea to use 2 pins for the coil loop.
after some research, it seems there are indeed 2 different"grades " of plug, one for 40Acont. and one for 30Acont.
i havnt checked to see if indeed the pins are copper yet.
good idea about using the thick copper cables to get rid of excess heat.

 

[gensem]

I have a neutrix plug im planning to put on a nyx and i had the same idea to use 2 pins for the coil loop.
after some research, it seems there are indeed 2 different"grades " of plug, one for 40Acont. and one for 30Acont.
i havnt checked to see if indeed the pins are copper yet.
good idea about using the thick copper cables to get rid of excess heat.

Im using the ones below and trust me they ll not handle 40a continuously (not even 30 actually).

http://www.neutrik.com/en/speakon/speakon-chassis-connectors/nl4mp-uc
http://www.neutrik.com/en/speakon/spx-series/nl4frx

 

[ridethelightning]

http://www.neutrik.com/en/speakon/stx-series/nlt4fx

this is the one i have , it has silver plated copper contacts, spec for 40cont./50peak per contact.
needs to be STX series...

i got it from here-
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/888416-REG/Neutrik_NLT4FX_Speakon_4_Pole_Female.html

 

[Mammalian04]

Agh... I bought about 6 plugs and receptacles to make all my bikes the same. Darn. I guess those go on the shelf and I'll get the 8 port and parallel just to be safe.

 

[Mammalian04]

Hey guys, is there a separate BMS manual? Trying to sort out why I am not balancing correctly and the regular manual references more detail in the "BMS Manual" but I can't find a BMS manual anywhere. Russian only maybe?

 

[BCTECH]

Hey Guys,

I am wiring up 15 4S2P Hobby King Flightmax 8400mah LiFe packs into the Raptor 140 frame. BARELY fits. Hopefully I can fit the BMS and 70 amp charging coil inside as well as I want an all in one solution so I don't have to keet taking all those 3mm allen screws out again and again.

Should I be concerned about heat inside while charging?

Also, I am planning to install a Neutrix port near the head tube like Allex did on his Stealth. I will be using a 4 connector port so that I can have + and - from the power supply, and a Loop that completes the charge coil connection to the phase wire when plugged in. See picture below (yes, I know it isn't a Picasso painting). Question is, is there an order that the charge coil needs to be plugged in or will this work fine at the same time? I am thinking I would plug the power supply into the bike, then power supply into the mains wall outlet.

May i know any reason you put that 70a heavy coil inside the bike? if you want to be able to charge outside off site, then you also need to put the power supply inside as well?!
the width of multistar is 65mm which can put 2 flat and slack up, i think i am able to put 20 with a max e inside. but definitely not the coil and power supply which not intended anyway.
Maybe you can squeeze few more of the Flightmax without the coil and power supply?

 

[bigbore]

EDITED ( new info from Andreym on Youtube):

Although the controller current sensing algorithm has a temperature coefficient compensation, however the T sensor is located not exactly near the shunt, but underneath the aluminium heatsink, so on open stand you will have an error when shunt heats up, however while riding the controller itself will heat up as well and the t° compensation will work as it should.

ShuntR value is limited by firmware, so if you want to make your controller output maximum power, you can add some copper to the shunt to make it value = the lowest value in the settings you can choose, but not lower than that. If actual resistance would be lower than the one set in calibration menu, your current readings on the display and the wattmeter would be inaccurate. However if you make modification to the shunt, this will void the warranty, so instead just flash unlocked firmware version that will also void warranty, but will allow you to set any current you want in profiles without touching the shunt

Is there something related with the firmware version? I've been running RC7b and my ShuntR value is 0.305 milihom. In Boost mode I can set up to 156 Amps for Ib and while riding I read up to 140A.

 

[Mammalian04]

May i know any reason you put that 70a heavy coil inside the bike? if you want to be able to charge outside off site, then you also need to put the power supply inside as well?!
the width of multistar is 65mm which can put 2 flat and slack up, i think i am able to put 20 with a max e inside. but definitely not the coil and power supply which not intended anyway.
Maybe you can squeeze few more of the Flightmax without the coil and power supply?

I am going to set it up where all I have to do is plug the power supply into the bike (with coil inside). When I go somewhere else that has a power supply, I can plug in there too, even if it is a smaller power supply. I will still have my ability to parrallel a bunch of big power supplies at home (if I ever buy that many - my current power supplies are only a 48v 20amp Meanwell and an Eaton from Allex).

 

[joe535]

Hi everybody.

I just soldered (double checked !!!) the plugs etc. to be ready for using my
Crystalyte H4065.

I connected 3 phases, the hall-sensors, temperature-sensor, display and an external laboratory power-supply with
current limitation of 500mA just to be sure... Actually should be sufficient for the display...
I began with 24V, but no current flow. Same for 48V..
Is it mandatory to connect throttle and BMS and/or charging coil?
From my understanding of electronics it should not, but please correct me...

Thanks a lot in advance.

Joerg

 

[Allex]

Welcome!
If you have one with ON/off option, make seure that you connect those bare wires together to turn the controller. You only need the display connected to get it working.

 

[Motobikewheels]

Figured i would join in on all the fun

My max-e is on the way, thanks Allex!

Quick

If i open it up to water seal it better will it void the warranty?

 

[Allex]

Guessing that you will use it for your QS
This will sound a bit ironic but, yes you'll lose the warranty then.

 

[joe535]

Welcome!
If you have one with ON/off option, make sure that you connect those bare wires together to turn the controller. You only need the display connected to get it working.

Thanks, that's it

One more question: I have just read that regenerative breaking will also work with a hall
sensor mounted at the brake-lever... Is that true? If yes, I assume the description of the wiring diagram
is not correct as it says "brake button or speed sensor"..
I think it means "hall sensor" ??
If yes, could somebody post the correct wiring? I would prefer an adaptive breaking rather than
just "on off"..

And before I forget, can I use any PAS and/or Throttle ??

Thanks,
Joerg