gas price thread

[e-beach]

....The true "Free Man" places Critical Thinking above his own pride.

This means in Critical Thinking when you realize an error you simply change position.
.......

Except politics is emotional not logical. You will never get many people to vote for something different using logic. You will however get them to vote by emotionally motivating them, or conversely get them not to vote by affecting their emotions negatively aka: attack adds.

 

[SafeDiscDancing]

Except politics is emotional not logical.

Overall we have seen a Dumbing Down of humanity.

So as we get Dumb and Dumber the emotionalism increases and the Critical Thinking declines.

Few know that at one time Critical Thinking was included as part of a college education.

And I've had two different elementary school teachers voice their disgust that Critical Thinking is now "banned" in the schools.

They literally had gotten in trouble because as teachers they were giving children the tools to think.

This change to memorization away from thinking happened after 911... so the early 2000's.

Today a child might go to college and get a Liberal Arts degree and never know the Seven Liberal Arts.

Trivium... Quadrivium...

Grammar, Logic, Rhetoric... then four blocks which are the major groupings of knowledge.

 

[JackFlorey]

America completes the Keystone pipeline and it is immediately shut down before even being used.

The Keystone pipeline is currently up and running. It's not even at full capacity due to the shutdown of many of the tight oil projects during the pandemic. That's a fact, sorry.

It did shut down a few months ago when cold weather forced some pumping stations off line. It restarted two days later.

https://www.hartenergy.com/exclusives/tc-energys-keystone-pipeline-resumes-operations-after-unplanned-maintenance-198158

This means in Critical Thinking when you realize an error you simply change position.

So you posted an error above - you believed the Keystone had been shut down. You now should realize you were wrong. How do you handle it? Do you say "OK, I made a mistake. It happens." Or do you stick to your guns and keep spouting the false information? Becasuse at that point it's not just a mistake - it's a deliberate lie.

 

[JackFlorey]

Thats not even a weak argument,..its a non argument ![/quote]
It merely proves that a brand new EV costs a little over half as much as the average new car in the US.

Which is why I laugh at people who say that EV's are not affordable. Can they come down more in price? Absolutely. And within 5 years or so the cheapest EV will be cheaper than the cheapest gas car. But RIGHT NOW the cheapest EV is way cheaper than the average American car.

 

[JackFlorey]

All you done is spot a trend new cars are going up in price as there's only upper classes shopping there anymore the pinch is so tight on most talking about a new car is nothing more than dream world for them myself included so most are stuck with a 10 year old car that would struggle to replace let alone get a new one.

Very true. Which is why that $5000 used Nissan Leaf is often a much better deal for lower income people. They can't afford the $28,000 for a new Leaf - OR $47,000 (average) for a new gas car.

 

[Hillhater]

Consumer experience says that $5000 used leaf will likely leave them facing $10,000 for a new battery within 5 years.
And $5000 could buy them a much more recent, and better condition, Versa

 

[neptronix]

I paid $14.5k for my Toyota Yaris out the door during a time that nobody wanted them.

The car easily achieves 40-50mpg average and ~65mpg on long highway trips with some hypermiling ( doing 5-10 under on the highway if it's not crowded, making best use of momentum, etc. )

I really wanted a 2018 Honda Insight instead, but it was $7k more, and had a battery to replace in it's lifetime. It also was *nowhere near* as sharp of a handler as the Toyota ( With the Toyota being a Mazda 2 sedan in disguise ).

The payments were something like $300/month, which wasn't bad. But i paid it off early.
In 3 years, i have done nothing but change the oil, which has an interval of 7500 miles, so the car will go through less oil per mile than most.

It's not perfect, but i don't have a plug, and that keeps me from being an EV owner. I ended up with a car almost as green as a hybrid, and aero modded it a bit to make it even greener. I don't have a big battery to replace every 10 years, so i think actually, this might be one of the cheapest to own cars and a great insulation against oil wars and other disruption.

It's a fantastic poor person's car.
But this car was so unpopular in the USA that Toyota USA completely axed it as everyone was buying SUVs and trucks.
The next best thing today is probably a Nissan Versa or an Accent, but only get a manual version.. automatics and CVTs are not so hyper-mileable.. or powerful..

I do not like hearing or operating a gasoline vehicle, and can't wait to convert it to electric power one day. it is a particularly aerodynamic car that would look great as an EV.

 

[Hillhater]

America completes the Keystone pipeline and it is immediately shut down before even being used.

The Keystone pipeline is currently up and running. It's not even at full capacity due to the shutdown of many of the tight oil projects during the pandemic. That's a fact, sorry.

It did shut down a few months ago when cold weather forced some pumping stations off line. It restarted two days later.

https://www.hartenergy.com/exclusives/tc-energys-keystone-pipeline-resumes-operations-after-unplanned-maintenance-198158

This means in Critical Thinking when you realize an error you simply change position.

So you posted an error above - you believed the Keystone had been shut down. You now should realize you were wrong. How do you handle it? Do you say "OK, I made a mistake. It happens." Or do you stick to your guns and keep spouting the false information? Becasuse at that point it's not just a mistake - it's a deliberate lie.

Jack, i am sure, (as you are a well informed observer),..you know full well that SD was referring to the highly controversial, and very public cancellation of the operating permits for the Keystone XL pipeline,.....so why are you arguing trivial details over something you know was a true fact ?

 

[SafeDiscDancing]

Very Interesting Plot Twist

Apparently there are at present 6,000 drilling permits ALREADY APPROVED but they aren't being used.

So using Critical Thinking when new evidence enters the picture you must adjust your logic to adapt.

What this is saying is the blame is not focused on the regulator (government) side but actually the companies that drill are not drilling.

Why?

This reminds me of how Enron would manipulate the energy markets in California by "purposely" shutting down power sources and then deriving big profits as people panic.

This might be a sort of "cartel" like behavior where all the drillers are working to get higher oil prices through sabotage.

In other words the "crime" might still be deeper and more hidden.

I know that at one point if oil got down to $50 a barrel it actually was a losing business money wise.

So maybe this is "Big Oil" or some yet unknown criminal cartel doing it.

------------------

Any time you experience a "contradiction" like this you need to investigate.

Usually the crimes are revealed through a contradiction.

Like the fact green plants love CO2... it should make you suspect foul play because things don't add up.

Funny when you think about it that green plants need CO2 to live and the whole "climate hysteria" is centered around denying plants the very thing that makes them green and healthy.

GO GREEN ---> KILL PLANTS

These nonsensical realities of a narrative can be the keys to figuring out how they are being used.

 

[neptronix]

 

[goatman]

diesels upto $2.15 liter, i burn about 400 liters a day, two other machines burn about 200 liters a day then we have 10 truck and ponies going steady
dont see any bonuses happening in the future :lol:

 

[Chalo]

diesels upto $2.15 liter, i burn about 400 liters a day,

WTF is wrong with you?

 

[Hillhater]

diesels upto $2.15 liter, i burn about 400 liters a day,

WTF is wrong with you?

..... this shows how remote you are from the reality of keeping society going. !
Every one of those heavy haul trucks that bring your food and toys to your town , can burn double that amount each day.

 

[SafeDiscDancing]

FOUND IT

Okay... so the drillers have the permits to go ahead and drill but a bunch of new red tape was added just since Biden assumed control.

So technically the administration can claim "Oh, there are plenty of permits."

It's not a "lie" but it's purposely misdirecting you away from the real problem of a government that has smothered an industry in oppressive red tape.

Critical Thinking says new evidence means new logic.

Blame goes BACK to government.

 

[fechter]

I thought this thread was about gas prices. Price here just topped $6.00/gal. Last time I filled up it was $4.75.

 

[calab]

Just because one has a permit the cost benefit analysis is different for every hole punched into the ground. It is very expensive to drill holes man, very very expensive.

FOUND IT

Okay... so the drillers have the permits to go ahead and drill but a bunch of new red tape was added just since Biden assumed control.

So technically the administration can claim "Oh, there are plenty of permits."

It's not a "lie" but it's purposely misdirecting you away from the real problem of a government that has smothered an industry in oppressive red tape.

Critical Thinking says new evidence means new logic.

Blame goes BACK to government.

 

[SlowCo]

We in the Netherlands are at €2,50/liter for regular gasoline. That's $10.5/gallon...

 

[john61ct]

Higher the better for conservation.

If the bosses want us to start commuting again they need to step up, on the clock and cover the cost

 

[SafeDiscDancing]

Higher the better for conservation.

I like electric because it offers a way for me to get around for pennies on an ebike and avoids trips to a gas station to fill up with a nasty smelling liquid.

But we know objectively that:

PLANTS LOVE CO2.

...so in the back of your mind you need to be thinking something like:

"Why are they criminalizing CO2? This makes no sense. Is this part of other depopulation plans?"

Humanity is at this Dumb and Dumber turning point where we need to question these dogmas because there is a whole lot of deception going on now.

I just pointed out how the politicians are claiming "There are plenty of drilling permits" while carefully avoiding all talk about the mountains of Red Tape recently added.

These are all tricks being used to deceive a very innocent childlike public... they see us as "Suckers".

 

[JackFlorey]

Jack, i am sure, (as you are a well informed observer),..you know full well that SD was referring to the highly controversial, and very public cancellation of the operating permits for the Keystone XL pipeline,.....so why are you arguing trivial details over something you know was a true fact ?

As he mentioned, the Keystone (the original Keystone, the one that is operating now) was completed in 2016. It was not "immediately shut down" as he claimed. That is the opposite of a true fact.

In general, conservatives believe one of two things:

1) The Keystone was never completed because Biden stopped it, and now no oil can come in from Canada.

2) The Keystone was completed then immediately shut down by Biden, and now no oil can come in from Canada.

Neither, of course, is true. I know we live in a post-truth society now, but I think there is still some value in basing your decisions on reality and not Russian propaganda.

 

[JackFlorey]

It's a fantastic poor person's car.
But this car was so unpopular in the USA that Toyota USA completely axed it as everyone was buying SUVs and trucks.
The next best thing today is probably a Nissan Versa or an Accent, but only get a manual version.. automatics and CVTs are not so hyper-mileable.. or powerful..

Yeah, a friend of mine bought a Honda Insight (hybrid) in 1999 and loved it. About $20K, 70mpg, and he drove about 30,000 miles a year with it. 2 seater with a decent amount of cargo space. But it didn't sell and Honda replaced it with a bigger, more expensive car.

 

[JackFlorey]

"Why are they criminalizing CO2? This makes no sense. Is this part of other depopulation plans?"

No one is criminalizing CO2. We just emit so much of it that we are warming the planet and acidifying the seas, and that's bad for us.

Think of it like water. I am sure you agree water is critical to life. And it's everywhere; it's even in the air. But imagine your friend stopping by, sticking a hose in your window and letting it run. Would you be upset? Would you be "criminalizing water?"

Nope. I suspect you just wouldn't want that much of it in your kitchen.

 

[JackFlorey]

I thought this thread was about gas prices. Price here just topped $6.00/gal. Last time I filled up it was $4.75.

Yeah, I saw $6.19 for regular yesterday.

 

[neptronix]

Safedisc continues pushing the 'plants love co2' thing despite me explaining why that's an opposite truth because plants are killed by the other emissions of cars ( well proven by now )..

Safedisc, you're starting to remind me of 'dauntless', a long time disruptor who enjoyed being a contrarian and rattling people's cages, and in conversation, he did not really converse with people, he would continue to twist his point, shout, taunt, and never budge. And also go on bizarre rants off the topic which would derail pretty much any thread he "participated" in.

What dauntless really liked about this forum is the opportunity to rattle a mostly liberal membership's cages, and he rode the line of acceptable/unacceptable behavior for years until i decided the game was up for him.

A guy like dauntless doesn't add to conversation. He subtracts from it. Instead of getting into a conversation where both parties can learn something, he'd prefer a shouting match.


Safedisc, don't be a dauntless.

It's no problem that you hold controversial viewpoints.

But we need to maintain a social environment where ideological opposites can exist, instead of us going the way of the one-party echo chamber that most sites have headed in, which is more of a result of 'shouting match' behavior than it is in ideological differences.

Let's have less shouting matches and more conversation on here.
Let's have less political emotion baiting and blaming, and more emphasis on what we can do about the problems we face with energy. Solutions are always better than arguments.


Oh, and don't let me single you out either. We have others in this thread who want to antagonize more than have a discussion, but one 'nail' is 'sticking out' here in a very obvious way.

 

[neptronix]

Can they come down more in price? Absolutely. And within 5 years or so the cheapest EV will be cheaper than the cheapest gas car. But RIGHT NOW the cheapest EV is way cheaper than the average American car.

Can you name me the electric car that's cheaper than the $14.5k Mitubishi Mirage? ( which is 'penalty box' AF )
https://www.mitsubishicars.com/cars-and-suvs/mirage

Or the $15k Nissan Versa? ( pretty decent econobox )
https://www.nissanusa.com/vehicles/cars/versa-sedan.html

I ran the calculations on lifetime ownership costs and determined that even with an increase in the cost of gas over time, cars like these are objectively the cheapest ones to own, and also have lower lifetime co2 emissions versus the usual $30-$40k 4,000lb electric car on the market today, if you hypermile the gas car. So i hypermile a small car.

The numbers do not add up for electric cars yet. The only thing i agree with you on, is that they will eventually make sense, only because battery technology scales like the computer processor - each generation is smaller, more powerful, cheaper, and longer lasting. But with batteries, we get 'new generations' at a rate of 1 per ~15 years.

It is an eventuality that electric cars will have lower lifetime co2 emissions, lower operating costs, lower fueling costs, and lower purchase prices than gasoline cars.

But we are not there yet.