Lines erased E-Bike / E-Scooter / E Motorcycle

[Chalo]

Would you want to share the road with homemade, makeshift, noncompliant, uninspected cars? Try to keep in mind what peds and real cyclists may be thinking about you and your machine. At the moment, dockless scooters are taking the heat off us, but they surely won't last too much longer. Hopefully some of the glamorous glow of e-cars will shine on us and buy us some slack for long enough that folks begin to take us for granted.

The best diplomacy for us is to operate like regular cyclists, at cycling speeds. For most people, a compliant e-bike does that job just fine.

I'm easily twice the size of an average person, and I ride a cargo bike that's easily double the size of an average bike. And my state has no power limit for e-bikes. But I still do just fine with a 750W motor system that would be compliant in most US states, given the correct settings. Nobody "needs" e-bikes that are faster or more powerful than that. What they need is to put plates on their e-mopeds or e-motorcycles, and stop reflecting poorly on those of us who are keeping the peace.

Our right to the road isn't like cyclists'. It's new and it's vulnerable to attack. What kinds of things are likely to roll back our unregulated access to the roads? I see a few possibilities.

[youtube]UYi_rUZJOJY[/youtube]

 

[donn]

The best diplomacy for us is to operate like regular cyclists, at cycling speeds.

That's what I'm saying, too - if by cycling speeds you mean simply within the range of speeds that bicycles might go, say 90% of the time. (I mean, "how fast is your bicycle" is a somewhat nonsensical question, if we include every possible descent, and on the other hand it's unrealistic to expect an e-bike rider to stay with the pack at 5mph up a hill. I'm saying 15-20mph roughly, YMMV.)

I'm easily twice the size of an average person, and I ride a cargo bike that's easily double the size of an average bike. And my state has no power limit for e-bikes. But I still do just fine with a 750W motor system that would be compliant in most US states, given the correct settings. Nobody "needs" e-bikes that are faster or more powerful than that.

OK, now we're back to the question of what's a good electric motor setup, for someone who will ride at cycling speeds as we're proposing. If I look at my screen, most of the time it agrees with you, inasmuch as draw is well below 750W. On steep grades, and pulling out into the road at an intersection, though, I routinely draw 900 - 1200W. If it were important to set a low bound on power availability, I could say OK, 1000W is plenty, or even 750W.

But is it important to set a tight lower bound, such that users may routinely operate at the power limit of the motor? Or would it make more sense to acknowledge that some limit is in the public interest, but that the limit should be loose enough to accommodate any normal use with some to spare? Because the real question for public safety is not how much power the vehicle has, but how fast it's going, whether due to gravity, muscle power or a battery. And that spare power can be used for good, as we've been talking about in preceding posts, for acceleration as opposed to final velocity.

 

[wturber]

If a rider knows how to ride appropriately for the situation without transforming that high performance in to excessive speed, there is no drawback.

Sounds great, but there are a few problems to consider. For instance, how does anybody determine what is "appropriate" or "excessive?" The motorcycle death statistics are overwhelming bad enough that it seems likely that either very large numbers of riders fail at determining what is appropriate or excessive, or that your basic conclusion about "no drawback" given those things are satisfied is basically wrong. I suspect that both of these things are actually at play. The higher speeds carry with them the problem of reaction times (for the rider and cars) and the damage suffered by a relatively unprotected human bean when colliding with heavy things at these higher speeds where the amount of energy involved in a collision increases geometrically with speed.

If you have a problem with riding at speeds too high for your situation, by all means get a slow bike, just please don't try to convince anyone that an artificial limit should be placed on E-bikes until they really do overlap with the performance of something like a 125cc sport bike, then let them be tagged and insured like a gas scooter or something.

I could be wrong, but I don't think anybody in this thread has suggested that there be any speed limit be placed on e-bikes beyond what is placed on regular traffic. The suggestion has generally been that when the ebike is operating at speeds that are typical of motor vehicles rather than bicycles, then its probably better to apply motor vehicle rules to that ebike and rider.

And when you are out-accelerating and keeping ahead of normal vehicular traffic then it seems pretty clear that you are acting pretty much like a regular motor vehicle. I believe it is pretty standard that 50cc, 25mph mopeds typically require registration and insurance. That's the case here in Arizona at least. So requiring registration and insurance as a minimum for 45-50mph e-bikes doesn't seem odd or outrageous to me. And in these cases, as with cars, I see no reason for any speed restrictions for fast e-bike/e-motorcycles. You can ride at 75 mph on the freeway for all I care (assuming a safe design with appropriate brakes etc.)

 

[wturber]

OK, now we're back to the question of what's a good electric motor setup, for someone who will ride at cycling speeds as we're proposing. If I look at my screen, most of the time it agrees with you, inasmuch as draw is well below 750W. On steep grades, and pulling out into the road at an intersection, though, I routinely draw 900 - 1200W. If it were important to set a low bound on power availability, I could say OK, 1000W is plenty, or even 750W.

But is it important to set a tight lower bound, such that users may routinely operate at the power limit of the motor? Or would it make more sense to acknowledge that some limit is in the public interest, but that the limit should be loose enough to accommodate any normal use with some to spare? Because the real question for public safety is not how much power the vehicle has, but how fast it's going, whether due to gravity, muscle power or a battery. And that spare power can be used for good, as we've been talking about in preceding posts, for acceleration as opposed to final velocity.

I think power assisted speed limits are sufficient and that motor power limits should be much more liberal than they are - possibly allowing as much as 3000 watts so that heavier pedicabs, cargo bikes, trikes etc. can accelerate in traffic and/or deal with hills more appropriately. Given that I ride up 6-10% grades (maybe steeper) every day, I could easily benefit from having 1500 watts of motor power. And having that extra power would present no additional hazard to those around me so long as the motor assist was speed limited. It would simply help me get up some hills a bit faster. That said, I (and probably 90% or so of bike speed ebikers) can live with 750 watts of motor power without much hardship. It just seems like a restriction that provides a perceived benefit but no real one.

 

[donn]

It just seems like a restriction that provides a perceived benefit but no real one.

Exactly. Speaking of heavier cargo uses, UPS is supposed to be testing electric tricycles here in Seattle, soon. 400 lb loads. The articles describe the setup as "class 2", which I believe is not restricted to PAS, but is limited to 750W, with a 20mph speed cutoff.

 

[wturber]

It just seems like a restriction that provides a perceived benefit but no real one.

Exactly. Speaking of heavier cargo uses, UPS is supposed to be testing electric tricycles here in Seattle, soon. 400 lb loads. The articles describe the setup as "class 2", which I believe is not restricted to PAS, but is limited to 750W, with a 20mph speed cutoff.

750 watt through gears can be fine for a low speed vehicle that doesn't have to deal with significant inclines. I doubt those cargo bikes will be going 20 mph very often.

 

[donn]

750 watt through gears can be fine for a low speed vehicle that doesn't have to deal with significant inclines.

I don't see anything real specific about the test routes, but I've been assuming they'd be in the urban core - which is a rectangular grid along a 10% grade, where it's pretty hard to get around without traversing what most people would regard as significant inclines.

Here's one, in a relatively flat area (and nicer weather than we're having lately.) I am a little puzzled by what little I can make out here - chainrings with no chain leading out behind, on the wrong side? From https://www.fastcompany.com/90254825/ups-is-experimenting-with-delivering-packages-by-e-bike, which also has a video. In both it sort of looks like the crank is driving something up at the top of the forks ... I'm stumped.

 

[Chalo]

OK, now we're back to the question of what's a good electric motor setup, for someone who will ride at cycling speeds as we're proposing. If I look at my screen, most of the time it agrees with you, inasmuch as draw is well below 750W. On steep grades, and pulling out into the road at an intersection, though, I routinely draw 900 - 1200W. If it were important to set a low bound on power availability, I could say OK, 1000W is plenty, or even 750W.

No electric bicycle regulation I know of makes any mention of power from the battery. It's usually nominal power. My BBS02 is 750W nominal, but it can draw as much as 25A from a battery that's 54.6V when fully charged (so 1365W hypothetical maximum input). I think that 750W sustained output is probably as much as anybody could expect from it, and is therefore a fair rating.

Even without speed limiting, I don't think the BBS02 can sprint to quite as high a speed as I could with pedals alone. But it can maintain such speed for an unnaturally long time. That's what I like about it. That, and the fact that I don't have to do the work myself.

 

[Chalo]

I am a little puzzled by what little I can make out here - chainrings with no chain leading out behind, on the wrong side?

Maybe it's only a trigger for the PAS.

 

[amberwolf]

I am a little puzzled by what little I can make out here - chainrings with no chain leading out behind, on the wrong side? From https://www.fastcompany.com/90254825/ups-is-experimenting-with-delivering-packages-by-e-bike, which also has a video. In both it sort of looks like the crank is driving something up at the top of the forks ... I'm stumped.

Zooming in to the pic in your post, on the front end, pretty clearly shows a derailer (or tensioner, at least) with chain wrap on the right side of the front fork, though it is difficult to see any chain from the pedals. It's a method that's been used before for front wheel pedal drive; there are a few ways to get the chain past the twist of steering. One of those is a shaft drive, so it might be there is no pedal chain, and uses a shaft from the pedals up to the headtube, then driving a sprocket ot drive the chain to the wheel. With a U-joint on the front end of teh shaft it'd be able to steer without having to stop pedalling (to prevent derailing teh chain).

 

[Chalo]

Oh man, you're right-- the white business on the left side of the bike is apparently a floating chain case like the Hebie Chainglider.

Interesting, but probably not very good as far as pedal drives go.

 

[donn]

No electric bicycle regulation I know of makes any mention of power from the battery. It's usually nominal power. My BBS02 is 750W nominal, but it can draw as much as 25A from a battery that's 54.6V when fully charged (so 1365W hypothetical maximum input). I think that 750W sustained output is probably as much as anybody could expect from it, and is therefore a fair rating.

OK, of course here we have yet another reason not to bother with power ratings in regulations. I've been saying 1500W hub motor, but I believe that meant peak power - comes with 30A x 48V. If users of "750W" motors are able to routinely run them at 900-1300W for short periods, then I suppose I may say I have a 750W motor too. The locally popular "RadWagon" has a "750W" hub, but "The 48 volt 20 amp motor controller surprises everyone we have had test ride the RadWagon." No doubt.

The verbiage in my state is "The electric-assisted bicycle's electric motor must have a power output of no more than seven hundred fifty watts." That isn't power from the battery, I guess it's closer to what the ebikes.ca motor simulator calls "Mtr Power", which might be 13% lower than "Batt Pwr". It doesn't read at all like it means "sustained output", but I guess it can mean that -- because it's convenient for everyone, it's understood that the legislature has no idea what they're talking about and it really doesn't matter.

 

[wturber]

No electric bicycle regulation I know of makes any mention of power from the battery. It's usually nominal power. My BBS02 is 750W nominal, but it can draw as much as 25A from a battery that's 54.6V when fully charged (so 1365W hypothetical maximum input). I think that 750W sustained output is probably as much as anybody could expect from it, and is therefore a fair rating.

The laws I've read for various places in the U.S. are either ambiguous about what is being rated or they specify motor output. So yes, battery draw is probably seldom or never the limit. With my booster I'll see an wattage draw of about 1065 watts max. But I subtract out 50 watts for lights and accessories, another 50 watts for booster inefficiency which leaves about 965 watts max to the motor. Given that I'm only ever giving the motor max amps on incline where the motor is not efficient (70% or less), I figure I never actually get 750 watt of motor output.

Even without speed limiting, I don't think the BBS02 can sprint to quite as high a speed as I could with pedals alone. But it can maintain such speed for an unnaturally long time. That's what I like about it. That, and the fact that I don't have to do the work myself.

On near flats and mild inclines I can get to the low and mid 30mph range for moderate amounts of time if the motor isn't speed limited. Having the motor power cease at 28mph has not been a burden or nuisance for me at all.

The UPS bike appears to have a front wheel pedal drive. I'm thinking maybe that's an internal hub drive on the front. I can see how that could be useful for making low speed tight turns. I think the UPS "truck" is based on this vehicle.

https://silvereaglemfg.com/project/truck-trike/

Here's a link to a higher resolution image. Open the image in a new tab for more detail. Also,I'm betting that the city is waiving the motor power limits for them. The article mentions that they are working with the city on this project. That suggest to me that exceptions are being made.

 

[wturber]

There's a Vimeo 3D tour of a standard "Truck Trike" here. It shows the front wheel drive system in a fair amount of detail.

http://www.trucktrike.com/

 

[donn]

Also,I'm betting that the city is waiving the motor power limits for them. The article mentions that they are working with the city on this project. That suggest to me that exceptions are being made.

Could be, but I'm not aware of any city rules on that. The exceptions would have to be made with the state, for the sake of classifying these vehicles as "bicycles" -- and it might not be worth bothering with. If there were any threat of enforcement, I guess it would be much easier for them to get them license plates, than it would be for the average garage-build ebike enthusiast. But they're likely legally enough within the bicycle classification anyway - on the Truck Trike site you found, the standard configuration appears to be a "500-Watt motor, that can provide higher power levels for short bursts - such as to climb a hill." So ... not really literally compliant, but the same as many if not all the other "500W" or "750W" motors on factory ebikes. The Heavy Duty option has two motors, though, and it looks to me like that's what UPS is doing, so ... guess they have to rate the motors at 375W.

 

[wturber]

there are a few ways to get the chain past the twist of steering. One of those is a shaft drive, so it might be there is no pedal chain, and uses a shaft from the pedals up to the headtube, then driving a sprocket ot drive the chain to the wheel. With a U-joint on the front end of teh shaft it'd be able to steer without having to stop pedalling (to prevent derailing teh chain).

The rubber boot between the pedal side shaft and the wheel side shaft makes me think it is perhaps a small CV joint?

 

[wturber]

The locally popular "RadWagon" has a "750W" hub, but "The 48 volt 20 amp motor controller surprises everyone we have had test ride the RadWagon." No doubt.

The verbiage in my state is "The electric-assisted bicycle's electric motor must have a power output of no more than seven hundred fifty watts." That isn't power from the battery, I guess it's closer to what the ebikes.ca motor simulator calls "Mtr Power", which might be 13% lower than "Batt Pwr". It doesn't read at all like it means "sustained output", but I guess it can mean that -- because it's convenient for everyone, it's understood that the legislature has no idea what they're talking about and it really doesn't matter.

Yep. The rules are mainly aimed at consumer manufacturers and as you point out, the legislators passing these laws are largely clueless and making political decisions with only a cursory nod to the technical details. Nobody is really looking at the bikes on the road from what I can see. BTW, my controller is rated at 13 amps but will deliver a 26 amp peak output. So I wouldn't be surprised if a 20 amp controller puts out close to 40 amps if is asked to.

 

[amberwolf]

Most controllers I've worked with have a max battery current draw of pretty close to what the label says, or less, even at peak. A couple have had a few amps over, but rarely more than that, without modding them.

I've seen reports on ES about some controllers that don't obey their limits very well, or they have a short term higher-than-usual limit, sometimes programmable.

But I don't think most controllers are like that.


Regarding the pedal drive systme of the UPS truck, the picture you posted shows enough detail to see that as Chalo said, the stuff on the left side is a chain guide/guard, with a chain going up to a jackshaft at the headtube.

The jackshaft might be a CV joint in a boot; or may just be a flexible rubber(?) block or tube stiff enough circumferentially to pass rotational drive power, but flexible enough longitudinally/etc to allow steering movements. Not sure if that's even possible, but....

Then you can see there's a chain on the right side via rollers/tensioners going down the fork leg to the input of what I presume is an IGH (since there's not any other simple way to get gearing in a systme like that).

WHen I built Delta Tripper I was planning something like that, but went even simpler and put pedals above the wheel and a chain straight down, so it twisted with the steering and caused problems; had to stop pedalling during any significant turn. I was planning it for the Raine Trike, but went with the "simpler" long chain to rear wheel (which has proven a lot less simple than hoped for). At some point I might do it for SBC, just to make the whole seatbox and rear end cleaner and potentially stronger (and a deeper bigger cargo box/area/etc, with no chain to run under it).




Also from the picture, the UPS truck looks like it has 2WD in the rear wheels. I can't tell exactly which motor, but it looks a lot like the MXUS 3K's I have on SB Cruiser.

The wheels themselves appear to be motorcycle rims/tires (no surprise), front and rear.

The cargo box appears to be a removable module. I would guess they load up a module then when the trike gets back they swap them out, since travel time is greater on the trike than a regular truck it would make sense to spend as close to zero time as possible at the depot.

Except for the saddle-type seating, higher up, it's very much like the basic plan I have for "SB Cruiser Mk II" (which would instead have a cargo box in front of the cargo deck area, as Mk I has, with the suspended-mesh seat on top of the lid, which lengthens the front end a bit). The major difference is that I"d use large diameter wheels for both front and rear, for a better ride over bigger bumps and potholes, since it still probably wouldn't have rear suspension.

 

[wturber]

I wasn't very clear on my controller comment. My controller has two ratings a "rated current" and a "maximum current". The maximum is twice the rated. So, is that a 13 amp controller or a 26 amp one. If I'm in front of a LEO or judge, I'm pretty sure that's a 13 amp controller since it says it is rated as 13 amps. :^)

 

[wturber]

Regarding the pedal drive systme of the UPS truck, the picture you posted shows enough detail to see that as Chalo said, the stuff on the left side is a chain guide/guard, with a chain going up to a jackshaft at the headtube.

The two Vimeo videos on this website ( http://www.trucktrike.com/) give a pretty good tour of the truck trike. Seems to be sporting a Cycle Analyst as well.

 

[donn]

The cargo box appears to be a removable module.

Yes, which I suppose contributed to the reasons for a front wheel drive.

 

[Smoke]

The thing is that there is a huge difference in performance between a "legal" E-bike and a well tuned Moped.

If you do it right a Moped will hit top speed and maintain it until the gas tank runs dry.

Put a 1,500 watt hub motor or mid-drive on an E-bike and it might be able to hit Moped like speeds but only in short bursts unless the motor is really overbuilt and then the battery will run out pretty quickly too unless it's huge.

It's like a Tesla. To get something that acts as a substitute for a gasoline car, you get spectacular acceleration but the top speed isn't much and they are really intended to opperate at freeway speeds and slower. If you want to go 200 miles in less than two hours, you might be better off in a gasoline powered economy car.

The Tesla of two wheeled transportation is an electric motorcycle, not a pedal assist E-bike.

The point is, anything that looks like a bike and isn't intentionally designed for sustained high speeds is more like a bike than a Moped and "legal" E-bikes are often slower than a regular pedal bike which might get you killed.

If you have a fast E-bike because you don't want to die, you shouldn't be encumbered with nonsensical regulations unless you ride it like an idiot.

Why they haven't outlawed idiot automobile drivers, I'll never know. Until they do, I'm going to ride whatever I feel will give me the best chance of avoiding those idiots (and it's not going to be a slow E-bike).

 

[wturber]

Why they haven't outlawed idiot automobile drivers, I'll never know. Until they do, I'm going to ride whatever I feel will give me the best chance of avoiding those idiots (and it's not going to be a slow E-bike).

I submit that the best way to avoid them is to used residential and minor feeder streets that have relatively low (25-35 mph) speed limits, sidewalks when they have low or no pedestrian traffic, bike paths, and bike lanes on the aforementioned minor streets.
Riding in general higher speed traffic appears to be pretty dangerous comparatively given the motorcycle fatality statistics. To avoid falling into that statistical cohort you'd probably have to be both extra vigilant and favor the slower streets. My gut tells me that there are very few fast ebike riders who are likely to be doing that.

As for your bike/moped/car/Tesla analysis, the average city trip by car is 5-7 miles. Thats a range that ebikes and Teslas can deal with easily. For city use, ebikes (fast and slow) don't have any special distance limits that would compel us to put them into a special class. It really does come down to speeds and the ability to handle those speeds within some established safety guidelines. If you are doing 40 mph on your ebike, the community does have an interest in making sure that you both know how to operate that ebike at those speeds and that your ebike is properly equipped with good brakes, tires, lights, etc. to be operating routinely at those speeds.

 

[Smoke]

I'm planning on doing 40 mph when I have to but regularly cruising between 20-30 on streets with speed limits between 25-35 mph.

On a pedal bike I was fine cruising at 23-24 mph as long as my legs would let me. The only issues I had were idiots turning right 10' in front of me.

Exhaustion doesn't improve that situation at all but a bit more speed and a more upright and visible riding position would improve it.

Maybe you are projecting when you imagine that I would ride like an idiot if my bike was capable of speeds higher than I could pedal. Nope, I've got a car that will do 150+ but while I drive aggressively, I rarely exceed the speed limit except when I'm doing it to keep up with traffic.

And yes, aggressive driving can be safe when it's aggressively defensive.

 

[MadRhino]

Some are stucked with the idea that one who has a fast ebike, did build it improper for the task and ride it like an idiot.

My experience is that idiots are riding all sort of bikes, slow or fast, and there are more unsafe slow bikes than fast ones.