Lines erased E-Bike / E-Scooter / E Motorcycle

[amberwolf]

I also want it for the classic cargo bike reason of my front wheel trying to flop over when I'm loading the bike.

For that, you can make a cotter-pin lock or similar that locks the steering at your desired angle.

On SB Cruiser, I used a spring steering damper that was actually for keeping it centered like that when hand-pushing the trike thru a doorway, originally. Worked, sort of, but still flopped around as weight/angle changed going over the doorsill, etc. An actual steering damper like from a MC or similar would probably have worked fine, but never got to try that.

Nowadays, I have a hole drilled thru the steerer and headtube on the side, and a ball-bearing-cotter-pin on a ring and cord that fits in there to lock it straight. I've inspected both steerer and headtube in the year(s?) since then and see no signs of cracking,etc., and given the loads and weigth and braking/etc applied there, I'd call it safe at this point.

I put the pin in whenever I need to hold the wheel straight, including when I'm working on the trike and need to roll it over, or just tip it up a bit to work on a tire/wheel/etc.

I have built one bicycle frame and it didn't have speed wobble at up to 45 mph which was the fastest I ever took it down hill. I don't expect to have a speed wobble with my new frame but if I do the damper should deal with it.

As long as the geometry is correct (or rather, "not wrong") you won't have issues like that.

My CrazyBike2 only had an issue with one specific geometry, and a certain speed range, when I happened to change the fork out for a different length one right before a race; I had a number of problems that time around because of that, though I don't recall all the details anymore. Is probably all in one of the DeathRace threads, and the build thread. Other than that time, it hasn't ever had a wobble problem, even at about 40MPH coasting downhill way back when it was first built, and geometry / angles changed several times over the years.

I bought my Viscoset from Jenson USA and it was only a slight upcharge over a Cane Creek series 40 headset so cheap.

At present the SB Cruiser is using FSA's "The Pig"; has been very sturdy and caused no issues so far.

 

[amberwolf]

Performance is part of safety when you use it smart. Leaving them behind off the start is even better. I feel important to outperform the other users of the street, in braking, acceleration and handling.

If that were true, fast motorcycles would be safer than bicycles on the street. In the real world, they're many times more dangerous.

So you can enjoy the illusion that speed results in safety, but try to remember it's an illusion.

Madrhino will have to speak for himself, but IIUC, I don't think that he's trying to say that faster is better, but that if he has better acceleration, then if someone else does something that he can't safely brake to solve (like if it would get him run over from behind), then accelerating to get out of the way is possible.

And if braking better than someone else means you won't ram into their backend when they slam to a stop without warning (and were riding close to them in the first place because of conditions behind you, etc), or they were in the lane next to you and then braked suddenly to get into the insufficient space between you and whoever is in front of you, then better braking can be important.


Better handling...well, if it handles well it's theoretically more controllable in any situation, so I don't see that as a bad thing.


The above is a large part of why I use higher power on the SB Cruiser, CrazyBike2, etc.--not because I want to go fast (20MPH is enough for my purposes), but because there are moments now and then in traffic that if I couldn't do those things I'd be squished. Or have my life threatened by the drivers as they go past, etc., as used to happen regularly on plain pedal bicycles.


How one *uses* all those capabilities can be a whole other ball game; quite a few drivers of cars, trucks and other large vehicles display this problem every day. :/

 

[MadRhino]

Performance is part of safety when you use it smart. Leaving them behind off the start is even better. I feel important to outperform the other users of the street, in braking, acceleration and handling.

If that were true, fast motorcycles would be safer than bicycles on the street. In the real world, they're many times more dangerous.

So you can enjoy the illusion that speed results in safety, but try to remember it's an illusion.

Looking like you missed a word in this quote: SMART

It is an advantage, only if you use it SMART, which everyone knows that the average motocycle rider is not. I’d say the average car driver is not either, but those are protected, and they are for a big part of the risk that unprotected users of the road a facing. Performance does help to escape the mistakes that drivers of bigger vehicles are doing all the time around you on the street, but it is also making your own stupid mistakes much worse.

A nervous horse is a winner in the hands of a good rider, but a killer in the hands of an idiot.

 

[donn]

Performance is part of safety when you use it smart. Leaving them behind off the start is even better. I feel important to outperform the other users of the street, in braking, acceleration and handling.

Looking like you missed a word in this quote: SMART

It is an advantage, only if you use it SMART, which everyone knows that the average motocycle rider is not.

... Nor can we confidently expect it from electric bicycle riders. Maybe he just misinterpreted your intention to outperform motor vehicles. I would agree that my otherwise overpowered hub motor gives me some opportunities for safer riding, but there's likely a point where more would not be better, and that's in the hands of someone who's been riding bicycles for over 50 years.

Anyway, to get back to the beginning of today's edition of this thread ...

https://www.vox.com/science-and-health/2018/8/28/17789510/bike-cycling-netherlands-dutch-infrastructure

The way this Canadian visitor portrays it, they just have a speed limit [edit] in the Netherlands [/edit]. 30kph on the bicycle infrastructure, so you stay below that and you're welcome to ride your electric bike there with no other requirements. Above that, you have to ride in the road, with license & insurance. That sounds so simple and sensible, but alas. From what I can dig up about the real situation, it's too complicated for me to say for sure I understand what's legal, but higher powered bicycles are not allowed on the bicycle paths, at any speed. It appears that the basic criterion is how fast the bicycle can go (which perhaps makes more sense in a very flat country than elsewhere), but there's also some of the usual pedal/throttle illogic factored in (again something that may make sense to someone who has never seen a hill.)

 

[wturber]

The way this Canadian visitor portrays it, they just have a speed limit. 30kph on the bicycle infrastructure, so you stay below that and you're welcome to ride your electric bike there with no other requirements. Above that, you have to ride in the road, with license & insurance. That sounds so simple and sensible, but alas.

Exactly. Place speed limits on sidewalks, multi-use paths, bike paths, and bike lanes. The limit should reflect the targeted use and/or vehicle class. That leaves more flexibility to use more power for acceleration, hill climbing or heavier loads such as can be useful for cargo bikes and trikes. And if you want to go 50 mph like MadRhino, fine. Just register and insure it like any other motorcycle since you are clearly operating it like that class of cycle. If you want to give fast ebikes a break on registration fees to promote their low noise and pollution, that's probably a good idea as well.

 

[wturber]

Performance is part of safety when you use it smart. Leaving them behind off the start is even better. I feel important to outperform the other users of the street, in braking, acceleration and handling.

If that were true, fast motorcycles would be safer than bicycles on the street. In the real world, they're many times more dangerous.

So you can enjoy the illusion that speed results in safety, but try to remember it's an illusion.

Looking like you missed a word in this quote: SMART

It is an advantage, only if you use it SMART, which everyone knows that the average motocycle rider is not. <snip>

OK. So there is typically no safety advantage in having a high performance capable ebike. Agreed.

 

[MadRhino]

...I would agree that my otherwise overpowered hub motor gives me some opportunities for safer riding, but there's likely a point where more would not be better, and that's in the hands of someone who's been riding bicycles for over 50 years.

Of course, SMART also means being conscious of the limits: Rider’s limits, bike’s limits, situation limits.

 

[MadRhino]

OK. So there is typically no safety advantage in having a high performance capable ebike. Agreed.

There is an advantage in having one more option to escape a situation. There are some situations that can only be avoided with performance, but there are some riders who can’t tame it. Performance doesn’t help everyone, only those who can safely take advantage of it.

 

[benjamin84]

OK. So there is typically no safety advantage in having a high performance capable ebike. Agreed.

Wasn't this covered a good few pages ago? Unless you can find statistics showing that motorcycles are more dangerous per mile travelled in an urban environment then I just don't buy this argument. In a city you are much better keeping up with traffic than you are being leap-frogged by half-sleeping commuters, and the extra power lets you get out of situations you would otherwise be stuck in.

That said, once you get out of the urban environment the extra speed of a motorcycle will be a liability, and any accident you end up in will result in more serious consequences. No argument from me on that point

 

[E-HP]

Performance is part of safety when you use it smart. Leaving them behind off the start is even better. I feel important to outperform the other users of the street, in braking, acceleration and handling.

If that were true, fast motorcycles would be safer than bicycles on the street. In the real world, they're many times more dangerous.

So you can enjoy the illusion that speed results in safety, but try to remember it's an illusion.

Looking like you missed a word in this quote: SMART

It is an advantage, only if you use it SMART, which everyone knows that the average motocycle rider is not. I’d say the average car driver is not either, but those are protected, and they are for a big part of the risk that unprotected users of the road a facing. Performance does help to escape the mistakes that drivers of bigger vehicles are doing all the time around you on the street, but it is also making your own stupid mistakes much worse.

A nervous horse is a winner in the hands of a good rider, but a killer in the hands of an idiot.

I agree with all of this. Performance is definitely a part of safety, based on riding about 250k miles on motorcycles. Two bikes were smaller 650cc bikes and the other two were bigger, 1150 and 1200cc bikes. My wife would ride as passenger, but she never wanted to ride the smaller bikes because of the lack of power. Sometimes the only escape route when a car or semi is merging into you is to accelerate, and if you lack power in that situation, you're roadkill.

On the other hand, if you are not smart, and/or like me, can't resist the temptations to go very fast, then you create your own situations, which is why I'm trying to keep myself occupied with e-bikes until my last two are out of college. Speed + impact kills. I'm smart enough to know that. Out of three major crashes, two were caused by idiot car drivers, but the other was the idiot rider, riding around a blind corner at 70 mph and Bambi springing out from behind a bush.

 

[wturber]

OK. So there is typically no safety advantage in having a high performance capable ebike. Agreed.

There is an advantage in having one more option to escape a situation. There are some situations that can only be avoided with performance, but there are some riders who can’t tame it. Performance doesn’t help everyone, only those who can safely take advantage of it.

Right. Which is a minority. Hence, there is typically no safety advantage.

 

[wturber]

OK. So there is typically no safety advantage in having a high performance capable ebike. Agreed.

Wasn't this covered a good few pages ago? Unless you can find statistics showing that motorcycles are more dangerous per mile travelled in an urban environment then I just don't buy this argument. In a city you are much better keeping up with traffic than you are being leap-frogged by half-sleeping commuters, and the extra power lets you get out of situations you would otherwise be stuck in.

Feel free to go digging up statistics on this. I did a lot of that, a few months ago and found nothing supporting any notions that going traffic speeds on motorcycles is safer than bicycle speeds in general, much less someone actually riding a bicycle intelligently with safety in mind.

 

[Smoke]

Some people are looking at this all wrong. High performance is certainly a safety advantage in several situations. High performance can also be a safety disadvantage if the rider is not using it properly.

If a rider knows how to ride appropriately for the situation without transforming that high performance in to excessive speed, there is no drawback.

If you have a problem with riding at speeds too high for your situation, by all means get a slow bike, just please don't try to convince anyone that an artificial limit should be placed on E-bikes until they really do overlap with the performance of something like a 125cc sport bike, then let them be tagged and insured like a gas scooter or something.

 

[Chalo]

just please don't try to convince anyone that an artificial limit should be placed on E-bikes until they really do overlap with the performance of something like a 125cc sport bike, then let them be tagged and insured like a gas scooter or something.

There are performance limits that define a moped; if an e-bike doesn't comply with electric bicycle limitations, it can be a moped. If it doesn't comply with moped performance limitations, it's a motorcycle. Nobody's saying don't have a moped or a motorcycle. But there are rules for those, and there's no valid justification for refusing to follow them just because your moped or motorcycle happens to be electric.

 

[donn]

just please don't try to convince anyone that an artificial limit should be placed on E-bikes until they really do overlap with the performance of something like a 125cc sport bike, then let them be tagged and insured like a gas scooter or something.

There are performance limits that define a moped; if an e-bike doesn't comply with electric bicycle limitations, it can be a moped. If it doesn't comply with moped performance limitations, it's a motorcycle. Nobody's saying don't have a moped or a motorcycle. But there are rules for those, and there's no valid justification for refusing to follow them just because your moped or motorcycle happens to be electric.

I guess there are quite a few of us who aren't compliant with those rules, to one extent or another, and we may or may not have valid justifications depending on how validity is to be determined. It's odd though that you quote that post while making this declaration - the way I read "don't try to convince anyone that an artificial limit should be placed", it's about what is, and is not, a sensible rule. Not whether we should feel bound by foolish rules.

 

[Chalo]

Thing is, being able to run an electric bicycle (a motor vehicle) without license, registration, insurance, inspection, or certified equipment-- in return for simply observing bicycle-like speed, power, and/or size limits-- is a privilege, not a limitation. If you don't want to exercise that privilege because you don't like the limitations, fine. Buy some insurance and put a plate on it like every other motorcyclist out there.

The attitude I see around here is more like: I should be allowed to go 50mph on my 200 pound bike without any restrictions or fees, because I don't think those things should apply to me. I understand the sentiment, but it's infantile and not supported by law, ethics, or good sense. Electric bicycle rules are there to tell you what specific kind of machine doesn't count as a motorcycle-- not to let you off the hook for your responsibilities as a motorcyclist.

 

[MadRhino]

Pointless to try forcing rules where there are not any. In most countries, a fast ebike can’t be registered as a motorcycle or a moped. Insurance are very different in various countries. Here everyone is insured, some places you can’t find any insurance for fast ebikes, some other places you can but the fees are just too much for most.

Riding our ebike, we are helping to save our cities from congestion and pollution. Yet, we are one generation ahead in most countries where the bikes that we ride are in a grey zone between assisted cycles and motorcycles.

Your suggestion is that we buy a gasser?
Mine is: ride your bike and don’t bother about others.

 

[Chalo]

Yet, we are one generation ahead in most countries where the bikes that we ride are in a grey zone between assisted cycles and motorcycles.

There is no gray zone! If it's not an assisted bicycle, it's a moped or a motorcycle. There are rules for them. You not wanting to follow those rules doesn't somehow create a gray zone where there isn't one.

If what you're saying is that your bike can't pass an inspection or that nobody is willing to sell you liability insurance for it, that's not a problem with the law. It's a problem with your bike. Do you think that gas bikers who can't pass inspection or get insurance should share your "gray zone" too?

 

[MadRhino]

There is no gray zone! If it's not an assisted bicycle, it's a moped or a motorcycle. There are rules for them. You not wanting to follow those rules doesn't somehow create a gray zone where there isn't one.

If what you're saying is that your bike can't pass an inspection or that nobody is willing to sell you liability insurance for it, that's not a problem with the law. It's a problem with your bike. Do you think that gas bikers who can't pass inspection or get insurance should share your "gray zone" too?

Nope. What I said is I am insured, like everyone else on the street.

No matter gas or electric, there is no procedure to licence a bike that you have built yourself here. So there is no licence plate for us, but we are insured like anyone else and they let us ride.
That, call it as you wish, is a grey zone to me.

 

[Chalo]

So if someone builds his own truck and can't get a plate for it, should he be able to share your gray zone, and drive without registration or inspection?

 

[MadRhino]

So if someone builds his own truck and can't get a plate for it, should he be able to share your gray zone, and drive without registration or inspection?

No. 4 wheels can’t drive or park on any street without a license plate. 2 or 3 wheels can’t ride on the highways without a licence plate. But, everyone is insured no matter what.

 

[donn]

The attitude I see around here is more like: I should be allowed to go 50mph on my 200 pound bike without any restrictions or fees, because I don't think those things should apply to me.

I would be more willing to be governed by rules that are supported by some sensible objective. We probably wouldn't all agree what's sensible, though it would be interesting and possibly valuable to try for some Endless Sphere Code that we could refer to when the question comes up (not joking about that, maybe it could make a difference.)

The way I see it, law is a sort of like a skeleton. It follows the general contours of society, and supports it, but we don't often touch it in our normal daily life. Driving a motor vehicle for example, I like to think I drive in a sane and reasonably safe manner, getting along with other road users - I don't look over my back for the police. There's a major arterial near me, built many decades ago when highway design standards allowed narrower lanes etc., where everyone drives at least 10 mph over the current speed limit - me too, of course. On the other hand, people who run red lights violate the law - but they also violate social expectations, so that law will be routinely enforced. In my city, pedestrians observe lights too. Among pedestrians at an intersection, you can tell who's not from around here.

Electric motors on bicycles have emerged rather recently as a common thing. We don't have really established cultural expectations, we don't have sensible laws, and I suppose we have somewhat haphazard enforcement. It will sort itself out. I personally have a "1500W" throttle-operated motor that doesn't fit in any of the legal classes. I would encourage anyone who wants something like that to get one - and to operate it at sensible speeds, which in my usual circumstances is roughly 15-20 mph, and to pedal vigorously too. The more of us do that, the better world it will be.

 

[Chalo]

The attitude I see around here is more like: I should be allowed to go 50mph on my 200 pound bike without any restrictions or fees, because I don't think those things should apply to me.

Electric motors on bicycles have emerged rather recently as a common thing. We don't have really established cultural expectations, we don't have sensible laws, and I suppose we have somewhat haphazard enforcement. It will sort itself out. I personally have a "1500W" throttle-operated motor that doesn't fit in any of the legal classes.

This problem already came up almost 50 years ago, and that's why we have special more permissive rules for mopeds. If your e-bike fits the moped definition, it's a moped. If it's too fast to be a moped, it fits the default and overarching category-- motorcycle. There's no rule that a motorcycle has to be as fast as a car, or fast enough to use the freeway. It's any motor-driven 2 or 3 wheeler that doesn't fit into one of the special subcategories for privileges (e.g. electric bicycle) or prohibition (e.g. pocket bike).

There was always a category for our fast e-bikes. Folks here just don't like that it has fees and responsibilities. But not liking it doesn't mean there isn't already a category.

I think we can all see the issue better if we consider a bike with the same performance, but with a gas engine. There are places they should and should not be allowed, and responsibilities to which they should be held. Simply keep in mind that there's nothing special, in the law or in most people's minds, about a motorcycle being electric. The same rules that apply to a 50 mph, 200 lbs gas motorcycle apply to a 50 mph, 200 lbs electric motorcycle. I've never heard a good reason why that's not fair.

If you have a good reason that electric MCs should have special privileges, tell your congressman. Bring it to your local motorcycle advocacy group. Get the press to discuss it. Heck, tell me what it is and I'll pass the word. Just don't pretend that the law doesn't already cover what you have.

 

[MadRhino]

Here, building your own vehicle is technically illegal. The law has requirements for all types of vehicles (and related equipment) that specifies for each, that they must have a federal safety approval and a manufacturer’s serial number. There is no procedure to approve one single home made vehicle. The federal safety approval is only delivered after various destructive tests on many samples of the vehicle, and paid by the manufacturer.

Legally, this does apply to bicycles and ebikes as well. So, building your own bicycle or ebike is illegal in Canada.

But, everyone agrees this is a stupid legislation, thus no one enforces it. Ebike limitations are not enforced either, other than rules about functional pedals, mandatory helmet, lights and reflectors... Trafic laws apply equally to all users of the street, and every user of the street is insured for medical and liability.

The law is different in every country, and generally enforced with discretional authority by the police and administration. They might enforce everything they can on a criminal, but they are pretty loose with those who behave.

They could pull you out of the street with your low power ‘legal speed’ ebike if they want to, because it has no ULC approval or any other legal technicality. The law has more than enough articles to pull out of the street anyone they feel he deserves it.

 

[donn]

If you have a good reason that electric MCs should have special privileges, tell your congressman. Bring it to your local motorcycle advocacy group. Get the press to discuss it. Heck, tell me what it is and I'll pass the word. Just don't pretend that the law doesn't already cover what you have.

We have electric motorcycles in the US, a few anyway, and they're very different from what I'm talking about - no motorcycle advocacy group would be interested in anything like my bicycle. There are a few active forum users here who are closer to that level of performance, so it's an awkward discussion for someone like you with such a rigid attachment to artificial legal constructs. Again, I think it would be a valuable exercise if this forum wanted to define one or more e-bike categories that make valid distinctions from other road users, and then we could leave the "motorcycle" thing behind.

Anyway, no one is pretending that the laws don't exist, but there are some issues with compliance. As Rhino points out, it isn't just the users who aren't observing those laws very strictly - there's little or no enforcement of the stupid parts. Except in NYC apparently, and I hope that's only temporary. Non-compliance is potentially a good thing, just has to be done well.