Lines erased E-Bike / E-Scooter / E Motorcycle

[MadRhino]

Europe only, as far as I know.

For most of us a PAS is another animal. I have built and tuned one for a friend who is very satisfied with it, but I am not. It ia a matter of personnal preference, like some are happy with a thumb throttle, and some other is comfortable only with a half twist.

 

[wturber]

The purpose is to force cyclists to have ID, so the police can ticket them quicker.

From what I understand, there is no requirement to carry proof of registration with you. So it doesn't seem like that's the intent. But I suppose this might be the camel's nose under the tent. France already requires that everybody carry some form of government issued ID. So I'm not sure how a bike frame ID would be any better than that given that the owner of the bike may not be the person riding it.

 

[wturber]

Personally, I think using "unconditional" in the way I think Chalo is using it is a bit misleading and confusing. But I can't say it is wrong any more than I can say that the way you are using it is wrong.

I think you can based on what I've read of yours in the past. IMO it's more accurate to say that you won't for political reasons.

Well, your opinion about my intent is wrong.

As I said, if you want to push the definition it is hard to find anything that is truly unconditional. And I think it probably is impossible in the realm of human law. The word, "undconditional" is seldom used in such an absolute sense. Even "unconditional" surrenders and "unconditional" love usually have conditions actually attached if you want to look closely enough. So you can push the definition to the limit or you can try to understand the point behind a comment. Your choice.

 

[wturber]

After 25 mph, the motor needs to stop assisting. So you could go as fast as a regular bicycle down steep grades.

If a bicycle is safe going over 25 mph downhill then it is safe going over 25 mph uphill and on level ground. The problem with what you propose is that it is a logical failure out of the gate and only represents your desire to limit speed, not address safety.

I don't think a bicycle is necessarily "safe" going 25 mph downhill. I think I momentarily hit 40 mph going downhill on my way in to work today. For those few moments, I was probably less safe than most of the rest of my ride. Safety is a significant concern of mine, but it isn't the only one.

I have zero problem with faster electric bikes. I just think that at a certain level of speed they need to be regulated and treated more like cars, motorcycles or scooters, and not like bicycles. My experience ( as a car driver, motorcyclist, cyclist and e-bicyclist) and gut tells me that this transition should occur in the neighborhood of 25-30 mph or so.

I'm curious why, if you're willing to concede that the transition speed may be 30 mph rather than 25, you would use 25 as your assist limit. I would consider 25 mph to be unreasonable as I regularly operate between 25-30 because conditions allow it. If the issue is safety, what you propose is no more helpful than what CA has already.

I have a few reasons. The first is that I assume that with a 25 mph limit, enforcement probably won't happen until 30 mph or so. Few speed limits are enforced strictly. With a 30 mph limit, enforcement probably won't happen until 35 mph. I have no stats, but my experience/gut says that routine speeds at 35 mph are probably not very safe for most bicycles and that 30 mph probably isn't very advisable.

I was offering this as an improvement to Texas law and perhaps as a general guideline - not specifically as an improvement for California. And frankly, any limit in that 25-30 mph window would be OK with me. But I think e-bike advocates would have better luck actually getting 25 mph limits passed. People for Bikes is doing well with 28 mph, but then their model legislation has a lot of other baggage that I'm not a fan of.

Of course, even 25 is unreasonable in some locations. That's why what you propose isn't an improvement. If it's a cap on what's reasonable anywhere then it's too low, but such a cap is mostly useless.

Most traffic laws have an overarching rule that you aren't allowed to travel faster than is "reasonable and prudent." So that deals with areas where even 25 mph would be too fast.

If you think 25 mph is too low, where would you put the cap? Keep in mind that the intent is to define a point where the e-bicycle is not substantially different enough from a regular bicycle to justify treating it differently from the standpoint of using bike lanes, sidewalks and other facilities where bicycles are normally allowed or to require licensing, registration and insurance. In other words, how different is too different before you need to treat the e-bicycle as a motor vehicle? That's the distinction I'm discussing/exploring.

Given that typical bicycle speeds are around 12 mph and that only extremely fit cyclists can maintain speeds over 20 mph for extended distances, I think pushing much past 25 mph would be a bit of a tough sell. I don't have a strong argument for allowing motor assists for e-bicycles much beyond that point. Do you?

 

[wturber]

That's why throttles aren't going away. When we get to significant motor inputs, like the 600-700W range my system uses when I'm going 18mph up a modest grade, everyone is cheating. The pedelec-only line is trying to make a key distinction out of something of no real consequence to anyone, that small fraction of human input, rather than the things that affect others like speed and weight.

I don't agree with any of this. First off, throttles have already gone away. Many laws mandate their removal.

Really? Maybe this is so outside the U.S. The brand new laws here in Arizona haven't mandated the removal of throttles. Where is it so inside the U.S.?

 

[Alan B]

Let's get the throttle facts right.

The California law, which most other laws are based on, says nothing about throttles in class 1 and 3, there is NO PROHIBITION OF THROTTLES. It merely requires pedaling in class 1 and 3. One can think of many ways of implementing this where a throttle is used, such as merely requiring pedaling to enable the motor which is controlled by a throttle.

https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billNavClient.xhtml?bill_id=201520160AB1096

(Note - I wrote this prior to the previous posting).

 

[donn]

Most traffic laws have an overarching rule that you aren't allowed to travel faster than is "reasonable and prudent." So that deals with areas where even 25 mph would be too fast.

... and of course any limit can be set for all users. For example there might be a 15 mph limit on a multi-use path. In cases where 25 mph is too fast for e-bikes, then it's too fast for any roadway user.

The point as I understand it of a 25 mph cap, is that if we're hoping to continue to enjoy a unlicensed, largely unregulated e-bike category that rides with unmotorized bicycles, then we need to limit that category to conform to the natural limits of unmotorized bicycles. 25 mph (40 kph) is reasonable and generous on that score - we'll be able to exceed that speed on downhill grades just as unmotorized bicycles can, but on level ground it's like 600W, right? If you see someone doing that without a motor, you can tell what's going on, the rider will be hunched up like a turtle and pumping away with leg muscles that look like cantaloupes. With category limits set to reasonable and practical levels, hopefully worldwide, there will be less and less interest in circumventing the limits via do-it-yourself builds, and the outcome will be better for everyone.

 

[MadRhino]

limit yourself to the speed your bike does feel safe to you. Do you doubt of yourself to the point that you really need a physical limitation for that ?

The legal limitation is the street speed limit. No one is forced to ride that speed, and no one is allowed to ride faster. That is enough law for a vehicle that is dangerous for its rider only. When you drive vehicles that are dangerous for other users of the street, then it is logic that some extra legislation is required. The bigger and the more dangerous a vehicle is for others, the more restrictions should be applied to its use.

 

[donn]

When you drive vehicles that are dangerous for other users of the street, then it is logic that some extra legislation is required.

I think that's at least partly what we're talking about. (Or to be more precise, vehicles that are dangerous enough that it becomes an issue.)

Electric Bicycle Fatalities & Injuries Are Rising

There's sure to be at least some level of e-bike performance that remains exempt from operator licensing etc. It would be good, for everyone, if that level supported the majority of practical uses.

I really don't ride very fast at all, if it matters - usually way below the motor's potential. I'm so interested in this because the current trend seems to be limits based on the motor's potential, which then limits acceleration, hill climbing, etc. more than it does actual speed, when the speed is more the real issue.

 

[gebmebsebwebbandteg]

As someone who has ridden over 50,000 miles on motorcycles...

My road bike (light weight, no suspension, no motor) starts to feel a bit dicey at 30 mph. On a good road I can hit that going downhill and still feel pretty safe, though. If the road is bumpy or dodgy in any way, even 20 may be a bit much.

My ebike (front suspension, hard tail, mid drive, Kenda Small Block 8 tires, disc brakes) feels way safer at 30, but I've never taken it above 35 (mostly because I can't without hitting an insane cadence). I do go over some bumps at 25-30 and feel pretty safe about it.

My motorcycle (Triumph Bonneville) feels cozy and comfy at 80 mph.

 

[onemorejoltwarden]

Why this matters. An example:
I have been having insurance issues, fortunately on the buying end, but issues all the same, over the legality issue.
Look, no LEO can tag me for anything costing more than a handful of good 18650's.
But,
If I hit the distracted lover of a PI attorney or his dog, I am uncovered, for damages and for my defense.
None of my policies cover ebikes or their operation, Homeowners, car, umbrella.
E-bike policies are $30/month per (and I have 4 e-bikes) and do not cover "use in illegal activity".
I know no one who is properly covered by insurance.
My health insurance will not cover injuries occurring during commission of a crime or illegal activity,
which operation of 2 of my bikes could be considered/argued.
Maybe nobody checks, but obscurity is not a good defensive strategy, I am told.

 

[MadRhino]

Why this matters. An example:
I have been having insurance issues, fortunately on the buying end, but issues all the same, over the legality issue.
Look, no LEO can tag me for anything costing more than a handful of good 18650's.
But,
If I hit the distracted lover of a PI attorney or his dog, I am uncovered, for damages and for my defense.
None of my policies cover ebikes or their operation...

This is a personnal issue. Depends on where you live, the services available, and how wealthy you are.

I am covered, as all other users of the street are, where I live. Off road I am gambling my own money, which I see as minor consideration anyway, given the fact that I am also gambling my life at the speed that I ride. :wink:

 

[E-HP]

I think the moment you feel safe on a 2 wheeled vehicle is when you are not. You can do things to make sure your equipment is up to snuff, tire pressure and tread, brakes, etc., and made for the speeds you're riding at, but ultimately on a 2 wheeled vehicle the unsafe factors are external or harder to control. The best you can do is feel confident; in your equipment and skill/ability.

I just got into e-biking because I'm trying to defer the purchase of another bike (motorcycle) for 3 years. That's when my last kids get through college. Based on riding at least 250K miles on motorcycles, and my crazy riding habits, I feel like the risk of killing myself is higher than I want to accept, and and e-bike travelling fifth the speed (my crazy habits include riding very fast regularly) is less likely to do that.

I had two big wrecks above 70 mph, one when I deer bolted out of the bushes and another when a car make a lane change right into me. The deer disintegrated, and I rolled 100 yards or so and got kind of messed up, but the same thing, at lower speeds, could happen riding down an urban street, with Fido running out from his yard. Same with the cars. That's not going to stop me from riding, but just reminds me to not feel complacent or safe while riding, but to be confident and vigilant, knowing that I'm NOT safe.

PS. I’ve never experienced a speed/death wobble on a bicycle, but I’m guessing at higher speeds it’s possible. Wondering if anyone has equipped their e-bike with a steering damper, but I suppose if you’re building for speed, it might be a good precaution.

 

[MadRhino]

I think the moment you feel safe on a 2 wheeled vehicle is when you are not. You can do things to make sure your equipment is up to snuff, tire pressure and tread, brakes, etc., and made for the speeds you're riding at, but ultimately on a 2 wheeled vehicle the unsafe factors are external or harder to control. The best you can do is feel confident; in your equipment and skill/ability.

I just got into e-biking because I'm trying to defer the purchase of another bike (motorcycle) for 3 years. That's when my last kids get through college. Based on riding at least 250K miles on motorcycles, and my crazy riding habits, I feel like the risk of killing myself is higher than I want to accept...

Yep. Riders need to accept that safety is not part of this game. We are making our own safety with tuning and riding experience, but it will always be fundamentally dangerous to ride.

After riding a whole life, everything one can ride from horses and bulls, to dirt and street bikes, I feel lucky to be strong and healthy at 71, after hundreds of crashes. Especially after my young neighbor died from missing a step off his balcony.

 

[donn]

My health insurance will not cover injuries occurring during commission of a crime or illegal activity,
which operation of 2 of my bikes could be considered/argued.

Not that it would prove anything, but anecdotes would be very interesting, if investigation subsequent to accident of any nature has ever gone into the details of the motor, and how that was handled. For a bicycle with two wheels (I hope that's redundant.)

 

[E-HP]

Saw this, but don’t know if it’s current:
https://peopleforbikes.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/E-Bike-Law-Handouts_WV_Revision_compressed.pdf

Made me kind of happy with my state’s laws, for once.


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[Chalo]

Saw this, but don’t know if it’s current:
https://peopleforbikes.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/E-Bike-Law-Handouts_WV_Revision_compressed.pdf

Made me kind of happy with my state’s laws, for once.

West Virginia may be backwards, but at least it's consistently and totally backwards. You have to admire their commitment.

 

[E-HP]

Saw this, but don’t know if it’s current:
https://peopleforbikes.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/E-Bike-Law-Handouts_WV_Revision_compressed.pdf

Made me kind of happy with my state’s laws, for once.

West Virginia may be backwards, but at least it's consistently and totally backwards. You have to admire their commitment.

Crap. You made me shoot coffee out my nose.

 

[onemorejoltwarden]

Saw this, but don’t know if it’s current:
https://peopleforbikes.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/E-Bike-Law-Handouts_WV_Revision_compressed.pdf

Made me kind of happy with my state’s laws, for once.

West Virginia may be backwards, but at least it's consistently and totally backwards. You have to admire their commitment.

Crap. You made me shoot coffee out my nose.

Have to add that to the risks.
When I read the West Va page , it just seemed like a shrug, but does point to the regulatory confusion at the core of the OP, and lackof comprehensive perspective and failure to differentiate between low level assist, and electric powered vehicles, and adds to it the off road confusions and conflict most evident in Colorado and Utah.

 

[classicalgas]

Mixed use bike trails (and here in Washington, all the "bike" trails not part of the pavement shared with cars, are mixed use) have so many oblivious walkers, dogs on leashes extending across the path, wheelchairs, kids barely able to control their bikes, skaters, Xcountry ski's on wheels, skateboarders (and occasionally horseback riders) that speeds over 15 mph are often very risky. They don't serve as realistic commuter routes in many cases, even at commuter bike speeds, and 25 mph as a cruising speed ( e bike) would be nuts.

Some are "rails to trails" with marked "user type" lane designations, but those are routinely ignored.

If they were in actuality bike only ( and that was enforced) these trails would make bike commuting realistic and safe, but that's unlikely to ever happen.

 

[Smoke]

Staying on surface streets with speed limits 35 or less, cars regularly travel 40 mph or more.

Riding a bicycle at 20 mph feels dangerous to me because you are constantly being passed so you need lots of people to be aware of you instead of just a few cars surrounding you.

Because of that, I want a bike that can quickly accelerate up to 40+ mph when I need to get out of trouble, accelerate off the line well enough to keep up with cars until at least 20 mph so I'm not being passed in intersections, very good disk brakes, enough suspension and tire to maintain control over potholes and a steering damper.

I'm not going to compromise my safety to fit the letter of the law.

I stopped bicycling because people with insurance and perfectly legal cars kept trying to run me over. Hopefully an E-bike will keep me out of those situations, I don't care if it's legal or not and I don't expect law makers to get it right.

 

[MadRhino]

Staying on surface streets with speed limits 35 or less, cars regularly travel 40 mph or more.

Riding a bicycle at 20 mph feels dangerous to me because you are constantly being passed so you need lots of people to be aware of you instead of just a few cars surrounding you.

Because of that, I want a bike that can quickly accelerate up to 40+ mph when I need to get out of trouble, accelerate off the line well enough to keep up with cars until at least 20 mph so I'm not being passed in intersections, very good disk brakes, enough suspension and tire to maintain control over potholes and a steering damper.

I'm not going to compromise my safety to fit the letter of the law.

I stopped bicycling because people with insurance and perfectly legal cars kept trying to run me over. Hopefully an E-bike will keep me out of those situations, I don't care if it's legal or not and I don't expect law makers to get it right.

+1
Performance is part of safety when you use it smart. Leaving them behind off the start is even better. I feel important to outperform the other users of the street, in braking, acceleration and handling.

I never felt the need for a steering damper at those speed. I mean, if you can’t tune a bike to coast handless at 50 Mph, that is probably where you should start: learning to tune and maintain a bike, and to select adequate frame /components for the task.

I would never ride a bike that needs a steering damper at city speed. I would tune its geometry instead because it would feel terribly wrong.

 

[Smoke]

I'm not expecting a speed wobble, that's not why I want a steering damper. I want it so my bike doesn't want to rapidly change direction if I hit an unseen pothole.

I also want it for the classic cargo bike reason of my front wheel trying to flop over when I'm loading the bike.

I have built one bicycle frame and it didn't have speed wobble at up to 45 mph which was the fastest I ever took it down hill. I don't expect to have a speed wobble with my new frame but if I do the damper should deal with it.

I bought my Viscoset from Jenson USA and it was only a slight upcharge over a Cane Creek series 40 headset so cheap. I was considering a Hopey so comparatively very cheap.

 

[onemorejoltwarden]

From VOX: Good article on biking infrastructure in general
https://www.vox.com/science-and-health/2018/8/28/17789510/bike-cycling-netherlands-dutch-infrastructure

Quote:
The thing the Dutch have done well is classify these electric vehicles. Again, it comes down to the speed they’re capable of traveling. Regular e-bikes are speed-limited to [19 mph]. As long as you don’t exceed that speed, you’re able to use the regular bike infrastructure.

If the bike is capable of going faster than that, it must utilize the streets and act like a car. There’s insurance requirements, licensing requirements, helmet mandates for those machines.

With the e-bike and electromobility in general, they’ve shown in the Netherlands, that they’re getting people to make better choices around personal transportation. They’re more likely to take their e-bike or scooter than an Uber or a taxi, or even the public transit system.

That little electric boost provides additional psychological help, and to encourage them to ride longer distances. So we are champions of electromobility, within reason. Cities still need to carefully regulate and react to the changes — I don’t think anybody foresaw, for example, the scooter disruption that’s happened on our streets.

 

[Chalo]

Performance is part of safety when you use it smart. Leaving them behind off the start is even better. I feel important to outperform the other users of the street, in braking, acceleration and handling.

If that were true, fast motorcycles would be safer than bicycles on the street. In the real world, they're many times more dangerous.

So you can enjoy the illusion that speed results in safety, but try to remember it's an illusion.